Oh please, cry me a river Argentina! No seriously, stop, just stop......my shirt is starting to get wet. 
Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE
- Thread starter ranje
- Start date
Agree. I cannot imagine how terrible you'd have to be at this game for the PVE consequences to have any teeth. Does such a player even exist? The only "punishment" that is tangible is loss of docking privileges at a hostile minor faction station. And now that we can move docked ships remotely, even this penalty is extremely minor.
This is thread about the possible Karma system, not boasting about how awesomsauce the NPC ships are. I am assuming that is what you mean by PVE.
PVE player gets interdiction bounced into a planet by Griefer. PVE player now has to pay the cost of rebuy.
PVE player gets interdicted by griefer in a PVP equipped FDL while flying in an eagle, Griefer blows away the eagle and now PVE player has to pay cost of rebuy.
PVE Explorer gets interdicted by griefer in an Asp "Explorer" after a 40k ly round trip and gets blown away for the lolz, now the PVE payer has the rebuy cost, the travel time, and the millions lost from exploration.
At no time in those 3 examples is anyone other than the PVE pilot being held accountable for their actions. Mundane every day occurrences as far as the game universe concerned.
In real world terms it would be the equivalent of having 10k murders every day while the specific event of an innocent person walking to the corner store. The kicker is that that example would have to happen day in and day out by the same group of perpetrators as it does in ED. Everyone knows who they are, but just because there currently is no punishment doesnt mean their shouldn't be.
Everyone else has had to suspend disbelief for the last 2.5 to 3 years to accommodate one and only one playstyle. The entire population had to cater to one small group of peoples every wish. Now there is finally the possibility of relief from playing the game for their enjoyment and holding those player types to the same risks that everyone else had to take since launch.
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You can improve/repair minor faction rep from silly little courier missions faster than you can lose it from murdering people! And, assuming you don't just suicidewinder (which somehow inflicts amnesia on a whole system), the bounty expires after a measly week of bad behavior anywhere that isn't there, they welcome you back with open arms, and put a trivial fine on your tab that you don't even have to pay unless you somehow mange to lose a ship to a non-existent threat.
This can't actually happen.
The interdiction fails if anyone contacts the orbital cruise zone of a planet and both parties get dumped into normal space, essentially never in close proximity. You're also not going to fall from upper OC altitude to the surface of a planet unless you have FA off and go AFK for hours.
It's also just as possible to be interdicted by an NPC and intersect a planet's OC/exclusion zone.
No, not everyone else. Everyone. The system looks ridiculous from any perspective and would look just as ridiculous in the complete absence of PvP.
Heaping consequences on CMDRs for doing things to other CMDRs that are generally less absurd than what CMDRs get away with doing to NPCs isn't going to do much to improve suspension of disbelief, even if it temporarily appeases the moral outrage of some.
^This. I thoroughly expect players who gank or try to pirate now, will continue to do so, just with a layer of consequence they don't have now. I also expect players who would like to play the murderous outlaw, but currently don't for whatever reason, may begin to do so. Most importantly, with the negative consequences there should also be positives like others have already posted. For instance, access to different mission givers, modules, and docking rights at outlaw only stations (that would be fun for the die hard pvper).
There will always be murderous souls in the game. White hat pvpers will lose nothing.
I realise the pro-griefing crowd is just trying to equate killing NPCs with griefing players because treating those behaviours as equal would necessarily preclude the system being able to enact serious consequences. But feigning incomprehension over the difference between 'harming' an inanimate object and harming a person is really not helping you discredit the forum psychologists.
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Basically yes, and it is plain and simply sad, for two reason.
Either.
They are well aware of the difference, but simply want to defend what they enjoy despite clearly knowing what it affects others, and are well aware of the fact that what they want is not a 'real' battle not real PvP.
Or
They truly do not understand why others think of what they are doing as negative, because others can just 'git gud' or similar phrases, truly feeling that it makes a game 'better' by only attacking those so much weaker then themselves, rather then attacking stuff where it actually might be a risk to them.
Which is plain and simply sad.
Speaking as a "pro-griefer" in the sense that if I wanted to play in a world where nobody could shoot at me without the thought police running them out of the game I'd already be in Mobius, my reason for wanting to see all players held to the same standard regardless of whether they're shooting players or NPC's is that it would A) be only fair, and that B) much more importantly, it would lead to a more believable and enriching game environment all the way around. It's besides the point that I think the (above) average PvEer would be unable to play under this karmic burden without losing it all
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So you're in favour of the new C+P system then, as long as punishment for doing something to an npc is equal to the punishment for doing something to a player.
And all it took was a little rebalance suggestion to fix "Muh immersion"
By the way Morbad, before you move your goalposts again, I'm curious how you would implement a C+P system for this game. I know you think it needs once since you've previously admitted it. How would punishing murderous npcs/players work? You've shot down this system repeatedly for being terrible, so I'm sure you're sitting on something that would work properly.
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Honestly, while I totally see where you're coming from, I think that's a little extreme. Sure there are some who are at least close to that attitude but I bet there's a few with the opposite attitude, who would prefer such a draconian C&P system, with such enhanced penalties for attacking other players that PvP play is effectively killed off. For myself, I choose to believe that the majority of ED players don't need to stick both feet into one boot to manage a synapse and are therefore a little more intelligent than that, so these attitudes reflect a tiny minority.
Speaking as a "pro-griefer" in the sense that if I wanted to play in a world where nobody could shoot at me without the thought police running them out of the game I'd already be in Mobius, my reason for wanting to see all players held to the same standard regardless of whether they're shooting players or NPC's is that it would A) be only fair, and that B) much more importantly, it would lead to a more believable and enriching game environment all the way around. It's besides the point that I think the (above) average PvEer would be unable to play under this karmic burden without losing it all
It is perfectly easy to PvE away and maintain a clean record. There would be no burden at all. I only shoot wanted ships for profit. There is no profit in gaining a bounty. Murder is not required of me to take missions, and deliver data all over. I can just not accept the missions that would get me a bounty. I can make choices about what I do in game. So I can't (player choice here) sell slaves for outrageous profit. That's the price I pay. Much like the consequences of deciding to be a full time Murder-HoBo (How come no one ever sticks up for the innocent HoBo's out there?) should be.
I don't think waving all the crimes a PvE'er commits around is going to make an impact. As far as I know, Trading in a shieldless T-9 isn't going to get you a bounty.
Speaking as a "pro-griefer" in the sense that if I wanted to play in a world where nobody could shoot at me without the thought police running them out of the game I'd already be in Mobius, my reason for wanting to see all players held to the same standard regardless of whether they're shooting players or NPC's is that it would A) be only fair, and that B) much more importantly, it would lead to a more believable and enriching game environment all the way around. It's besides the point that I think the (above) average PvEer would be unable to play under this karmic burden without losing it all
Speaking as an "anti-griefer" in the sense that I believe the game would benefit from believable consequences for illegal actions in supposedly secure systems I have to agree whole heartedly with this sentiment. The PvE game is far too tame, and "reasonable consequences" are always reasonable, regardless of the status of your victim.
As long as the griefing side finally gets hit with the hefty cost that everyone else has been paying I am fine with whatever they do to PVE. I do not go out of my way to kill NPCs unless they are pirates, wanted, or on the other side of the CZ. Nothing else makes me money so why would I bother. Until they actually create real pirate missions and real corporate assassin missions that are more than point and shoot, then I might consider it.
Not to mention the karma system works both ways. If you for example do not commit crimes and whatnot the mention was made of not so much as rewards but some sort of benefit gain. Maybe lower rebuys what ever who knows.
If we can get a "karmic see-saw" then I'm sort of picturing having fun with a new system. You can play the villain until the cost gets to be too risky, then start grinding out karmic enhancing charity missions to be everybody's friend again, then start all over being a villain.
Yeah I'm with you here... they could ramp karma up as much as they like and it wouldn't bother me personally. The game desperatley needs real professions, tools, areas etc for bad guys to be bad guys as anither part of addressing the whole ganking issue. Right now the only way to be a bad guy is to annoy other people. The karmic consequences have to be about broken system laws though, not about protecting players from other players... so it shouldn't matter if you attack a PC or NPC, what should matter is if you broke a law.
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Yeah there's got to be a way to "back away from the precipice"... you need a carrot too, not just a stick.
I'm in favor of a new C&P system, always have been.
Not necessarily in favor of much of what's been proposed though.
Move my goal posts? I can find posts of mine that align with what I've been saying these last few pages that pre-date your existence on this forum.
The goal posts have always been, and forever shall be, straddled around as much verisimilitude as possible...convenience, ease of use, and casual perspectives of 'fun' be damned.
Obviously, I can enjoy a game far short of this ideal, or else I wouldn't have nearly five thousand hours in this one, but every silly 'fix' supposed to force everyone to be one big happy space family that goes around and pillaging the deliberately surrealist props and scenery, while collecting pots of gold for it, is never going to do anything but annoy me.
Frankly, I'd fix the economy, the BGS, the mission system, and introduce detailed persistent telemetry tracing for all CMDR activities, plus implement detailed population modeling, then wipe the game again as I think things are largely beyond salvaging without radical measures.
In the absence of that, I'm not really sure what a practical fix is, but we could start by closing obvious exploits, making bounties semi-permanent, and reintroducing major power bounties. A massive AI improvement for higher rank NPCs is also called for. The average Elite NPC should give me a run for my money in a similar ship (and have similar degrees of modification), and a wing of elite defense forces should wipe the floor with most wings of CMDRs.
More persistence all-round and reverting many of the convenience 'fixes' with regard to travel would also make it easier to police secure space, via the most plausible sorts of encounters possible.
I have upwards of 2.5 million cr in past bounties (whose fines I pay once they expire) from base assaults for firmware. This is the only practical way to acquire much of this data at a remotely acceptable pace without exploiting instancing oversights (which, like suicidewindering, is something I will not do).
I'm not a griever and I sure haven't been paying much in the way of heavy costs.
I'm stunned. I've apparently misjudged you. This all sounds like something I'd write. My apologies.
We've always shared similar views regarding the original vision for the game we were sold on with regard to it trying to plausibly depict the Elite setting.
I'm just a little more Road Warrior in my play style and failed state/distopia in my perception of what most of space should look like outside of core/high-sec systems.