Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[Robert Maynard]

I don't see why. Ship A attacks ship B. The system evaluates "ship power" difference, rank difference, wings or not, and wanted status and makes a karmic evaluation. Why would status as player or npc come i to it?

For the health of the game, as Sandro has mentioned previously - the karma system would seem to be independent of existing CC&P in that regard.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I concur. It's imperative that NPC's evolve beyond their current status as a low skill farmable resource. Make them more deadly, and make the consequences for interacting with them unlawfully in line with punishements slated to be levied against human players for unlawful conduct. For starters.

That's a different argument and strays into the realm of the general difficulty of the game rather than consequences for undesirable player/player interactions & combat logging - something that Frontier have to consider the player-base as a whole when thinking about making modifications to.

 

[Sandmann]

For the health of the game, as Sandro has mentioned previously - the karma system would seem to be independent of existing CC&P in that regard.

Sandro said it would only apply to PvP encounters? I must have missed that bit.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sandro said it would only apply to PvP encounters? I must have missed that bit.

This post:

Hello Commander Sole Hunter!

Let me be as clear as I can, I think perhaps I am not articulating the concept well enough.

* Our karma system would work by tracking *trends* over time. You would never perform a single action and get dropped down to the lowest rating. It tracks intent by building up a picture over time.

* It would very likely *only* apply to interactions with other players in most cases, so it would not interfere much with the rest of the game.

* Importantly, for combat encounters, it would a) only apply to criminal attacks, b) use as detailed and as comprehensive metrics as possible for determining relative ship powers, taking into account ship hull, load out, engineered upgrades and pilot rating, and only activate when there was a large disparity.

I guess, in response, do you feel it's completely fine for powerful ships to be able to wantonly destroy new players, for example?

Hello Commanders besieger, Jukelo and others!

Regarding the possibility that such measures might act as an incentive: it's an interesting point.

In response I would suggest that if the measures did do that then with the system in place it would be more likely that we could swap in measures that in no way could be seen as good things (such as shadow bans).

There's also the argument that it's not that we necessarily want to prevent Commanders from playing how they want, more that we want appropriate consequences for such actions.

 

[Han_Zen]

That's a different argument and strays into the realm of the general difficulty of the game rather than consequences for undesirable player/player interactions & combat logging - something that Frontier have to consider the player-base as a whole when thinking about making modifications to.

I don't agree. It would be easy to 'bring players in line' with the NPCs, by brutally nerfing top player builds. Players that have top builds, have managed to survive in lesser builds. They have by definition, no problem with the difficulty level.

The problem is that FD has given handouts to experienced players, who have gotten used to their god like status. Now they want to a karma system, that ensures that not even other players can't touch them either.
Us PvE players have dug our own grave by asking for superiority over NPCs. It has essentially made all systems anarchies for players.

C&P does not work because of this. Is it really a good idea to patch it with another layer of protection, instead of fixing the actual problem?

 

[Sandmann]

This post:

Yeah I'd missed that. He DID say "It would very likely *only* apply to interactions with other players in most cases, so it would not interfere much with the rest of the game." which isn't definitive since he's included "very likely" and "in most cases", but I agree that is the direction in which he's leaning. Hopefully applying it to player vs npc encounters has simply not been considered yet rather than having been ruled out. It'd be yet another missed oppourtunity to exclude those encounters, in my opinion.

 

[T'Kitr]

Yes and no... I personally think your behaviour towards CMDRs should be treated no differently (where possible) to NPCs. ie: If you act like a psycho and start blowing up NPC T9s for the lolz, then I personally would like to see a C&P (Karma) system taking that into account - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Reputation-quot-and-quot-Risk-Hot-Spots-quot

That is a reasonable point, and believability (the term I tend to use since 'immersion' is now a dirty word) wouldn't be hurt by a punishment system for my own crimes against NPCs, if I decided to commit any.

That said, I think that would probably be fairly easy to implement - if I understand right, the biggest issue with crime and punishment here is the balance between advantaging some players and disadvantaging others (at least in their own eyes).

As I said, my ultimate dream for ED would be a fully offline, or at least fully solo, experience, where nothing I do affects other players, and vice-versa. In which case, peaceful, law-abiding trader or indiscriminate killer, it makes no difference to anyone's game world except mine.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

I don't agree. It would be easy to 'bring players in line' with the NPCs, by brutally nerfing top player builds. Players that have top builds, have managed to survive in lesser builds. They have by definition, no problem with the difficulty level.

The problem is that FD has given handouts to experienced players, who have gotten used to their god like status. Now they want to a karma system, that ensures that not even other players can't touch them either.
Us PvE players have dug our own grave by asking for superiority over NPCs. It has essentially made all systems anarchies for players.

C&P does not work because of this. Is it really a good idea to patch it with another layer of protection, instead of fixing the actual problem?

There is actually. The karma system is separate from C&P and rather the pilot federation rule of conduct for their members due to their zero tolerance to infighting (within limits).

We still need a C&P system on top of that since the karma system have nothing to do with law enforcement.

 

[sewerratuk]

Yeah I'd missed that. He DID say "It would very likely *only* apply to interactions with other players in most cases, so it would not interfere much with the rest of the game." which isn't definitive since he's included "very likely" and "in most cases", but I agree that is the direction in which he's leaning. Hopefully applying it to player vs npc encounters has simply not been considered yet rather than having been ruled out. It'd be yet another missed oppourtunity to exclude those encounters, in my opinion.

I imagine if they used the karma system for CL's against NPCs there would be a few disgruntled people out there

 

[Han_Zen]

There is actually. The karma system is separate from C&P and rather the pilot federation rule of conduct for their members due to their zero tolerance to infighting (within limits).

We still need a C&P system on top of that since the karma system have nothing to do with law enforcement.

The hole idea that players are PF members and NPCs are not, is silly. NPCs have rank. PF gives out the rank. Do they just miss the gold card?

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The hole idea that players are PF members and NPCs are not, is silly. NPCs have rank. PF gives out the rank. Do they just miss the gold card?

Yup i agree.

I would have prefered if we would be factionless nobodies but their decision with the hollow radar icon and making us PF members killed that.

Then we add as you said the fact that npcs have elite ranks to non members or at least rank them adds more oddity.

- No hollow squares
- Pilot federation as a secret society that just rank pilots
- No pilot fed membership
- Ability to join any minor faction and LITERALLY work for them

 

[Chris Simon]

Yup i agree.

I would have prefered if we would be factionless nobodies but their decision with the hollow radar icon and making us PF members killed that.

Then we add as you said the fact that npcs have elite ranks to non members or at least rank them adds more oddity.

- No hollow squares
- Pilot federation as a secret society that just rank pilots
- No pilot fed membership
- Ability to join any minor faction and LITERALLY work for them

I always liked the idea of players being indistinguishable from NPCs on radar. But it would hamper the other (better) parts of the social interaction quite severely.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If the players who so ardently advocate for a karma system want anyone to believe it's anything other than an attempt to run PvPers out of the game entirely and literally nothing more, they'd probably back this idea. Given how one dimensional that aspect of the game is right now, I'm honestly surprised PvEers aren't begging for NPC's to have their collective game enhanced.

I'm insulted on behalf of PvPers for you labeling them all as griefers. Because the karma system is to place consequences on griefing. Not PvP.

So, nice try at the gotcha, but it's highly illogical Captain.

Prosper and stuff.

 

[Han_Zen]

I'm insulted on behalf of PvPers for you labeling them all as griefers. Because the karma system is to place consequences on griefing. Not PvP.

So, nice try at the gotcha, but it's highly illogical Captain.

Prosper and stuff.

Many players grief NPCs. If they don't receive an equal karma hit, the hole system is pure meta and don't belong inside the game.

We would need one hell of a lore explanation for the PF pilots elevated position in society, for it to make sense.

Please FD, make a solid C&P system and keep the karma stuff outside the game.

Trend player activity all you want and punish players that repeatedly break rules, but do not make game play of it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Many players grief NPCs. If they don't receive an equal karma hit, the hole system is pure meta and don't belong inside the game.

Why should they? Frontier controls the behaviour of NPCs, both when being attacked by players and attacking players - the game is more than capable of reacting to players actions on NPCs.

The same cannot be said of players - they are not under Frontier's control - and some player behaviours would seem, from what Frontier has said, to be undesirable - the karma system would introduce consequences that would attempt to discourage those behaviours.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

I always liked the idea of players being indistinguishable from NPCs on radar. But it would hamper the other (better) parts of the social interaction quite severely.

not really. a good chat system with options like: System/Cluster/Region/Galaxy and we would be able too se who is in the system. We would not be able to instantly see them though.

A good chat system would be nice overall.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Probably the fact that NPCs are in-game for the sole reason of providing gameplay for players - the same cannot be said of other players who play the game for their enjoyment and can be adversely affected by the actions of other players.

I wouldn't describe them as orthogonal, because they would definitely interact. I see it more as C&P being the consequences for a specific action whereas karma is taking into account a trend in actions - Obviously everything in C&P is purely in-game and should apply equally to crimes vs players and crimes vs NPCs. However, I wouldn't exclude actions against NPCs from having an impact on the trends in behaviour that FD seek to take account of in a karma system. It's true that certain actions that would contribute to such a rating only rise to significance when perpetrated against other players and may not carry any consequence under C&P but the inputs to the two systems would certainly overlap and where an action by a player is (at least theoretically) equally significant when perpetrated against a player or an NPC then it should count towards karma whoever you do it do.

I think it's pretty obvious what they are and I'm surprised that two seemingly intelligent chaps like yourselves are having difficulty with this one. Karma is your long term reputation based on your treatment of other commanders. C&P is the immediate consequences of your actions against any other entity in the game. FD spelled it out pretty clearly I thought.

Thing that I didn't get though is what effect does your negative reputation actually have? Will you be hunted down by the space filth if you enter a high security system and your karma is bad? What effect, if any, does positive karma have? Can you acquire positive karma or does it merely reduce your negative karma and top out at neutral?

 

[jasonbarron]

I'm insulted on behalf of PvPers for you labeling them all as griefers. Because the karma system is to place consequences on griefing. Not PvP.

So, nice try at the gotcha, but it's highly illogical Captain.

Prosper and stuff.

This is an intellectual battle that's just getting started, old boy. Consider this a bit of foreshadowing.

And yes, I do think many players shamelessly grief NPC's. A karma system that afforded them some protections, too, could only enhance the overall game for everyone.

 

[Han_Zen]

- the game is more than capable of reacting to players actions on NPCs.

This is where we don't agree. Players have the option to avoid the games reaction to law breaking, by having a strong ship.

If the game was able to propperly react to players actions on NPCs, it would do the same when the crime was against a player.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

This is where we don't agree. Players have the option to avoid the games reaction to law breaking, by having a strong ship.

If the game was able to propperly react to players actions on NPCs, it would do the same when the crime was against a player.

By their very nature NPCs can't be griefed, just as an NPC can't grief a player. I'm all for a better C&P system that works on NPC and player alike but the karma system is meant for player to player interactions. I would expect combat logging to impact karma even in solo though as well.