with great power comes great responsibility.
NPCs have no power or responsibilities in the game universe. The players do.
Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE
- Thread starter ranje
- Start date
with great power comes great responsibility.
NPCs have no power or responsibilities in the game universe. The players do.
The reverse is true though, there is a certain type of person who only behave themselves because they know they will "git their come-uppins" if they don't. If you remove that threat of punishment, you get your standard internet troll. There's a jpg of a cartoon that illustrates that very well (skinny kid at school taunting a much larger kid, with the caption "Clarence forgets he's not on the internet"), but last time I posted it here I got reprimanded by the mods because it has naughty words in it.
No, but in a video game universe where time is indeed money, then it would be comforting. In the Real world it allows you to walk down said street with confidence in knowing you are safe or pretending you are safe because you know a criminal would be silly to commit a crime here.
It needs to translate somehow. The come-uppins part would allow you to fly in a high security area knowing you are relativly safe and if someone does kill you, well the punishment wont be inconsequential as it is now. It would also make the criminal think twice or weight the risk vs reward of the encounter.
Basically Mutually assured destruction.
I'm not the best witness for these things. I see a station once every 3 months or so.
I'm indeed not talking about griefing, but a ... Law and Order system that goes beyond "pay 6000 and kill anyone you like, or don't like". And that includes but isn't limited to griefing.
Goose4291
Banned
You have the penmanship of a sociopathic griefer, btw.
Maybe I should git gud at caligraphy?
Deleted member 115407
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So oustide of conflict zones... Last night some wingmates and I went and stirred up trouble in a player faction's space. It wound up being 8-10 CMDRs all buzzing around a system and trading blows for the better part of the night. As far as I know, everyone had a grand old time. My concern is that an improperly or poorly designed karma system will stifle fun play like that, and the last thing I want to have to put up with is passing around consent forms every time a couple of groups of players decide to jump each other.
I also wonder how a mechanic like "Attacking a player in a massively overpowered ship would incur negative karma" would play out for the other side, as I was flying something vastly smaller in size and capability than everyone else. Would those guys just have to put up with me disrupting their operations for fear that attempting to stop me would be karmically bad for them? What if a wing of four guys hops in Vipers to go on a bounty hunting spree, thus hurting a player faction's influence? Is the player faction shackled with having to jump in small ships to go stop them? Doesn't seem to be in everyone's best interest, that suggestion.
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Maybe I should git gud at caligraphy?
I have to virtual rep you for that one
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Yes, and this is true in life, too. Otherwise mild-mannered people will engage in all manner of foul activities if they feel there are no significant consequences for their actions.
The biggest problem I see with both the current system and the proposed solutions (by Sandro and others) is that it all revolves around the reality represented by the game - police will chase you, you won't be able to dock, etc. The thing is, griefers are playing by a different set of rules - the only thing that matters is mining salt, and everything else revolves around how to do that most efficiently; and that means that a griefer plays half in and half out of the game. That's why a griefer doesn't care about intentionally ramming his own ship into someone else's, in the game universe only a desperate madman would do such a thing, but a griefer knows he'll just get a new freewinder and can do it all over again. It's also why you have stream sniping, posting of ganking videos and the occasional smug posts here and at reddit - it's an ego boost for the griefer and a big middle finger to FDev saying "you can't stop me". That's why any form of punishment needs to be partly in game and partly out of it, because griefers operate partly in the game and partly out of it.
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Deleted member 115407
D
Last Saturday at around 3PM a guy walking his dog in my neighborhood was held at gunpoint and robbed. And that was in real life, with real world consequences looming. I'm just sayin'... I don't think that a reasonable C&P system is going to prevent ganking in this game as much as some folks think it will.
If this was ED, he'd have been found dead from attacks by multiple assailants, with his wallet still in his pocket, and there'd be an ad in the local paper by the attackers saying their town is boring and they bring much needed excitement.
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What responsibilities do players have?
So oustide of conflict zones... Last night some wingmates and I went and stirred up trouble in a player faction's space. It wound up being 8-10 CMDRs all buzzing around a system and trading blows for the better part of the night. As far as I know, everyone had a grand old time. My concern is that an improperly or poorly designed karma system will stifle fun play like that, and the last thing I want to have to put up with is passing around consent forms every time a couple of groups of players decide to jump each other.
I also wonder how a mechanic like "Attacking a player in a massively overpowered ship would incur negative karma" would play out for the other side, as I was flying something vastly smaller in size and capability than everyone else. Would those guys just have to put up with me disrupting their operations for fear that attempting to stop me would be karmically bad for them? What if a wing of four guys hops in Vipers to go on a bounty hunting spree, thus hurting a player faction's influence? Is the player faction shackled with having to jump in small ships to go stop them? Doesn't seem to be in everyone's best interest, that suggestion.
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I have to virtual rep you for that one
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Yes, and this is true in life, too. Otherwise mild-mannered people will engage in all manner of foul activities if they feel there are no significant consequences for their actions.
If you are up for doing that then one side or the other can turn off crimes against me.
If it was not arranged and everyone has theirs turned on, then it could be chalked up to being a bunch people fighting outside and disturbing the neighborhood so to speak. So the cops get called in for a noise complaint and a little negative karma is incurred on each side. I mean rich people dont like it when you take your 4x4 out on the golf course and start doing donuts on the 9th green. Rich people tend to frown on that. However its all fun and games until someone gets killed and then a real crime has been committed.
So basically it boils down to a time and place kind of situation. It shouldnt stop random acts of fun from happening, but if the random acts of fun result in multiple homicide, I cant really think that as being a good thing in any universe.
Deleted member 115407
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Repped, because "Hi, Ziggy
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Ha ha - I enjoyed that
To play the game and abide by what ever rules the Devs put in place.
They also have a responsibility to the game they enjoy playing. If they want people to play their game, then the game should be fun for other people.
Similar to being invited to a friends beach house for the weekend. You dont go to the beach house your friend graciously offered to you and burn it down. Especially if you would like to be invited back. Same thing.
You're unhinged mate, you need help, seriously. It's a video game. Nobody is being killed. Let's keep the consequences of actions taken in a video game, in the video game instead of getting all hysterical shall we?
Deleted member 115407
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But the whole point of jumping another player or group of players is that there is no "shake hands and let's have a clean fight"... and this is why we need faction mechanics, but that's for another thread.
Yes we do indeed. I think if that is a playstyle you enjoy then it could encourage people into using Power play. There are all kinds of options to allow this kind of thing to ocurr, but there are no options currently to stop the negative side of coin, that being griefing.
When this kind of stuff is finally tracked, then they can work in things to make these spontaneous occurrences of fun something that wont punish each side. For example if the fight is mutual and each side wont back down. Each player is giving as good as he or she gets. Then perhaps the karma impact is not very large.
But if lets say within a 10 minute period another fight between the same 2 combatants occur and the fight is just as vicious then the karma tracking system can see that this is a mutual on the fly agreement and wipe out any infraction occurred by each side. Kind of like flagging yourself for violence accept the game does it for you. After a 20 or 30 minute time span and the 2 people dont shoot at each other, then perhaps the karma system is re engaged. Something like that.
Speaking on that they could add another flag. Not a flag for PVP or PVE but maybe a combat flag. If you are known to enjoy and take part in combat, you can be flagged to allow combat between players, but still track crimes against you for things like station ramming and whatnot. 2 different combat flags.
Who knows really, but a whole new thread would need to be started to discuss it further.
I fully agree with this. Immersion and persistence is important.
It's not a big deal thoug. If negative karma is only given for exploiting behaviour, like station ramming, combat logging and killing of clean harmless Sidewinders, it want be a problem if it's commanders only.
No reason not to include NPCs though. Combat logging against them is still cheating.
The demands normally persist during the fight though, the NPC pirates do seem to make a reasonable effort not to kill the target.
Normally in such fights now, I am on the winning side so it is not likely that I would surrender. However, the point is still there and it is still valid.
The NPC pirates are not behaving like certain habitual killers that claim to be pirates.
That is true indeed. combat logging is still cheating.
But on the other hand and not trying negate Ziggys very valid point. The NPCs in this game are there for the players enjoyment not vice versa. They are the feeder pellets that packman eats or the Goombas Mario kicks around. They are integral to the game, but ultimately they are there to be enjoyed and used as a tool to move progression, story, or action in the game itself.
We would have to be very careful how many rights and privileges we give non sentient set pieces in the game. Especially with EDs combat centric focus
The game already tells us: you don't have the right to shoot down a clean NPC. If we shoot down a clean NPC, you get a 6000 cr bounty. That's a consequence. So, the principle is already in place, what we are talking about is the size and the form of the consequence. Seeing how the NPC already has the right to not get shot down.
So, if there's a disagreement, we should talk about why that consequence differs from shooting down players. And then we get into feeder pellet territory. But that also has to be represented in the game. That means that the Pilot Federation all of a sudden turns into a fascistic bunch who tells the galaxy: our pilots are worth more than regular schmucks. And if that's the case, I want to know how I can resign from the Pilot's Federation, because I want no part in that.