PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Zambrick]

My thoughts:

1.) PvP actually requires a lot of skill. Skill that takes time to develop. People don't always have time or interest to do that and most probably didn't sign up for that experience.

2.) The cost penalty of death. People don't like losing, but losing hours or days worth of money on top of it? That's down right depressing to the point of being a non-starter for many people.

3.) Age. If the average age of posters here is an indication, most players are 35-50, meaning many missed the golden age of PvP gaming. Most probably didn't play Quake Arena, Unreal Tournament, online fighters, online shooters, etc. That means a fair amount of the player base has only played PvE style games. Competitive gaming is not a thing for them and has never been. And will never will be.

4.) It's based on random encounters. In other games, you enter with the expectation of PvP. In fact, in most games that have PvP there is a dedicated mode and that's all people are doing. But due to the sheer size of ED's galaxy, that is an impossibility. So what you end up with is extremely random encounters that you may or may not be prepared for. You may be in the wrong ship, doing mission runs when you get jumped instead of in your war ship. There is no, "hang on let me switch ships" sort of option. You just have to try to escape or die. Lack of clear organization or way to congregate and do PvP intentionally hurts the game.

5.) Instancing. I don't need to explain the history of debilitating issues that poor instancing has caused over the years for organized PvP efforts.

6.) Engineers. What was probably conceived as a way to enhance things like PvP has had a net negative effect (in my opinion) as it has put PvP behind a grind wall. You literally can't PvP without having dome some engineering anymore. This also means that balance can't be controlled. Some people will have stronger versions of ships and equipment, period. That generally flies in the face of balanced PvP gaming.

3. Is wrong. By the fact that they are indeed of that age range and are alive when those games existed. Age has nothing to do with it. Liking and playing that kind of game does. If you didnt like quake back in the day then you wont like it now. So not sure why you used Age as a deciding factor. The age range you just listed had a huge population of people in college during those games heyday. I know thats when I did most of my gaming. I am not the only one either.


EDIT:
The reason why people dont like PVP in this game is because it was not designed to be a PVP combat game and the entire PVP experience is immersion breaking and does not fit the narrative of the lore in any way at all.

 

[dekot]

While that is good for you. Age means nothing other than the fact that some of us will live longer than you. Age does not bring wisdom and it certainly does not bring competency. How you feel personally has Zero impact on reality.

The sooner self entitled false passive aggressive attempts at internet machismo is ended, the better games like ED will become. Just because someone gets buthurtt over the fact that the game itself has no semblance of combat based PVP, doesnt mean that their views are correct. There are games and genres where PVP is intuitive and fits the overall narrative of the game. However ED has never been that and will never be that. PVP will have to be forced by draconian punishment, the removal of all ships but a few, or CQC in order to be viable.

It will however never be that way. No matter how much people want it. PVP combat does not exist in ED in any construct of the game currently. Fake, arranged, PVP duals do exist however duels are not wars and they are not realistic in comparison to the rest of the game. Nobody will ever know you blew up CMDR BoomsAlot because nobody cares and there is no way to let anyone know in game. Other than forcing it. Doing something over and over again just because you want it to change does not mean that it will change. Stating that PVP is something that is viable, required, or fun. does not make it true for everyone. That is the very definition of an opinion and while you are entitled to it, it does not mean everyone must agree with you.

I don't even know what you're talking about. All I'm saying is that this community is very risk adverse and prefers an easier game as opposed to wanting a challenge. I only mentioned my experience with gaming to demonstrate a familiarity with gaming communities in general, never did I suggest that my age alone somehow validated my opinion. Speaking of which, for someone who seems so adamant about protecting the sanctity of opinions, you spent a considerable amount of time shooting down my opinion. I don't know man, you took a whole lot of things on pure assumption and I'm just sitting here in disbelief at how someone can be so narrow-minded while expressing their own right to an opinion.

I agree with your claim that this game is not fundamentally a game based around pvp. But pvp still exists because the mechanic for non-consensual pvp exists. Piloting a ship in this game takes skill and practice, it's only natural that some people will want to test this skill against others. As you intimate, arranged duels are a bit lame, so they attack other people. Some people only attack combat ships, some only attack combat ships piloted by people with high combat ranks, and some only attack combat ships piloted by people with high combat ranks from opposing factions in a lore-friendly manner. And some only attack noobs outside eravate and during CGs. Why? Who knows? and who cares? You're not a psychologist so stop assuming it's all due to "internet machismo" and because their mothers didn't hug them enough.

I have my thoughts on why carebears hate pvp. If you truly want, I'll go into it. But I don't assume that covers every single carebear who plays the game because that's ridiculous.

Also, if you don't like open pvp, the developers included a solo mode which still affects the somewhat persistent game world. And an option to play online with friends in private groups. What more do you want?

 

[lefty1117]

There is zero incentive to PVP. No gains to be had, only insurance losses. In a game like EVE where valuable resources are in pvp-oriented zones, it makes sense. Piracy, bribery, protection fees, "ownership" of territory - it all makes sense when there's a valuable, rare resource or commodity to be controlled. This game just isn't set up that way, or if it is then it's not evident to players.

 

[William J Smith]

My thoughts:

3.) Age. If the average age of posters here is an indication, most players are 35-50, meaning many missed the golden age of PvP gaming. Most probably didn't play Quake Arena, Unreal Tournament, online fighters, online shooters, etc. That means a fair amount of the player base has only played PvE style games. Competitive gaming is not a thing for them and has never been. And will never will be.
.

Horse smelly stuff

I'm at the upper range of that, I sure didn't miss the golden age of PvP Quake, Quakeworld, Team fortress, UT.... sure I couldn't live with the best, but I had my hard won moments
And nobody I know in the same range as me didn't either (ok there may have been baby holding and the occasional pause to mop up vomit... with the ever present temptation of "come to bed dear.. I'm tired [squeeeee] " putting paid to some hard won CS action)

And now... we're older.... if not wiser..... the draw of PvP may not be as strong, and indeed some prefer a relaxing trip along with a touch of NPC pirate, but I'm still as fiesty and as deranged as that loon who picked pyro in Team fortress 20 odd yrs ago because he liked setting fire to everything (and everyone)

Bill

Damn whippersnappers,...... git orf ma grass!

 

[dekot]

My thoughts:

3.) Age. If the average age of posters here is an indication, most players are 35-50, meaning many missed the golden age of PvP gaming. Most probably didn't play Quake Arena, Unreal Tournament, online fighters, online shooters, etc. That means a fair amount of the player base has only played PvE style games. Competitive gaming is not a thing for them and has never been. And will never will be.

I have to seriously disagree with this. The old school gamers are the ones who had to put up real money at arcades to challenge other people. Fighting games back then were more fun because you had to stand right next to them, fighting for your quarters. And I'm slightly below that age range but the "golden age" of mmo open pvp was at least a decade ago, when a lot of those people would have been in their gaming prime. Open pvp games back then were almost all like Eve. "Newer" games like WoW watered down the mmo pvp experience. , I remember games that actually allowed thief classes to pickpocket other people while they were grinding for money and exp. Death was consequential and looting of inventories was the norm.

 

[Sunleader]

For me the main Problem with PvP is that the Combat System is very Boring and always the same.
There is in Essence only one Combat Style. Which is Logical. Because we only have one Type of Ship.

All Ships in the Game are All Weapons out Front.
So all Combat is essentially Dogfighting and Lancing to Point your Front at the Enemy while trying to avoid being in Front of the Enemy.

This makes Dogfighting very Boring and Tactics non Existent as everything is based on your Aiming and Reaction Skills rather than the ability to make Decisions.
After a few Fights you have in essence seen everything.


What they would need. Would be to introduce new Options for Combat Styles.

Add Ships which have their Weapons Setup more effective to the Side than to the Front.
Maybe add Ships like a Drone Carrier which is not very Powerful itself but can Start an Entire Squadron of small Fighters.
Maybe add Equipments and Weapons which change the Combat. Like Long Range Lasers which however become incredible useless at low Range. Introduce Weapons which only Affect Shields but hardly do Hull Damage and Vice Versa. Introduce Weapons like Torpedoes which are super Hard to hit but which will have incredible Module Damage if they Hit thanks to Penetration.
etc etc.

Without that its not really worth it right now.

 

[Ddraig]

I don't even know what you're talking about. All I'm saying is that this community is very risk adverse and prefers an easier game as opposed to wanting a challenge. I only mentioned my experience with gaming to demonstrate a familiarity with gaming communities in general, never did I suggest that my age alone somehow validated my opinion. Speaking of which, for someone who seems so adamant about protecting the sanctity of opinions, you spent a considerable amount of time shooting down my opinion. I don't know man, you took a whole lot of things on pure assumption and I'm just sitting here in disbelief at how someone can be so narrow-minded while expressing their own right to an opinion.

I agree with your claim that this game is not fundamentally a game based around pvp. But pvp still exists because the mechanic for non-consensual pvp exists. Piloting a ship in this game takes skill and practice, it's only natural that some people will want to test this skill against others. As you intimate, arranged duels are a bit lame, so they attack other people. Some people only attack combat ships, some only attack combat ships piloted by people with high combat ranks, and some only attack combat ships piloted by people with high combat ranks from opposing factions in a lore-friendly manner. And some only attack noobs outside eravate and during CGs. Why? Who knows? and who cares? You're not a psychologist so stop assuming it's all due to "internet machismo" and because their mothers didn't hug them enough.

I have my thoughts on why carebears hate pvp. If you truly want, I'll go into it. But I don't assume that covers every single carebear who plays the game because that's ridiculous.

Also, if you don't like open pvp, the developers included a solo mode which still affects the somewhat persistent game world. And an option to play online with friends in private groups. What more do you want?

The ridiculous, simplistic assumption that we are "carebears" because we do not like PVP makes me feel less and less inclined to even try it. If you are a prime example of the people that populates the PVP crowd, then this is all pointless and this thread should be closed.

It is so hard to accept that there is people that just DO NOT LIKE TO PVP?
That is why this game has game modes. Enjoy the one that appeals to you and leave the rest be.

 

[dekot]

The ridiculous, simplistic assumption that we are "carebears" because we do not like PVP makes me feel less and less inclined to even try it. If you are a prime example of the people that populates the PVP crowd, then this is all pointless and this thread should be closed.

It is so hard to accept that there is people that just DO NOT LIKE TO PVP?
That is why this game has game modes. Enjoy the one that appeals to you and leave the rest be.

Oh sorry, I just use that term to describe people who don't like to pvp. Isn't that what it means? People who only want to experience the pve aspects of a game and don't want to compete with other people?

And yeah, that was MY point, that people who don't want to pvp have game modes tailored specifically for them.

 

[MarkAusten]

I'm pretty certain some manner of adjective was used. It was also stated that the PvP community as more vocal.

Ask RM to post a link to the quote but I'm fairly sure it said that "they [FD] were well aware that the majority of players did not get involved with PvP". There were no other qualifiers adjectives, superlative or anything else that would give an idea of the scale of that majority.

Unfortunately!

 

[salad]

I don't like dealing with exploiters and cheaters so I avoid pvp, I know some of them are legit players but I've been around enough to be sure they're a minority.

 

[MarkAusten]

.... although he did say that Frontier are "well aware" - from which it might be inferred that it's something a bit more significant than a 52%/48% majority.

I'd like to think that but given the fact that FD are deliberately cagey, if not downright obtuse, when making statements about the player base, it would just be wishful thinking. There are hints that the majority is significant, but nothing definite. More's the pity.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

Oh sorry, I just use that term to describe people who don't like to pvp. Isn't that what it means? People who only want to experience the pve aspects of a game and don't want to compete with other people?

Nah it goes for the players that want to trade in shoddily equipped ships (mode doesn't matter) and cry when they get destroyed. The players that will scream about Thargoids being to hard = same thing. Pretty much any one 1. Not willing to take their medicine for mistakes or 2. A unwillingness to improve.

 

[dekot]

There is zero incentive to PVP. No gains to be had, only insurance losses. In a game like EVE where valuable resources are in pvp-oriented zones, it makes sense. Piracy, bribery, protection fees, "ownership" of territory - it all makes sense when there's a valuable, rare resource or commodity to be controlled. This game just isn't set up that way, or if it is then it's not evident to players.

I'm pretty sure FDev had pvp in mind when they allowed open non-consensual pvp. But IMO just like almost everything else in this game, they didn't bother to flesh it out more. A mile wide and an inch deep, for sure.

 

[MarkAusten]

I'm pretty sure FDev had pvp in mind when they allowed open non-consensual pvp. But IMO just like almost everything else in this game, they didn't bother to flesh it out more. A mile wide and an inch deep, for sure.

Or an example of the law of unintended consequences, perhaps?

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm pretty sure FDev had pvp in mind when they allowed open non-consensual pvp.

Indeed - however it is neither required nor the focus of the game - the ability to experience and affect from all three game modes would strongly suggest that.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Oh dear, someone said carebear, and I was almost starting to like these forums.

I started playing a month ago and not flown a second in open. I don't think I'd like to have my multipurpose D rated python blown up in 10 seconds by an A rated and fully engineered ship.

Maybe I'll eventually consider outfitting a ship for pvp, but it's not something I'm going to "work" towards, as from what I hear 2 "meta" ships take ages to destroy eachother and it's quite boring.

 

[dekot]

Oh dear, someone said carebear, and I was almost starting to like these forums.

I started playing a month ago and not flown a second in open. I don't think I'd like to have my multipurpose D rated python blown up in 10 seconds by an A rated and fully engineered ship.

Maybe I'll eventually consider outfitting a ship for pvp, but it's not something I'm going to "work" towards, as from what I hear 2 "meta" ships take ages to destroy eachother and it's quite boring.

Just fit a cheap ship and jump right in. It's a video game, you're not going to die for real. And to be completely honest, you're going to have a harder time actually finding someone to fight. You could have played in open all this time and getting ganked would have been a rare occurrence.

 

[lenna]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts.

For me, I like the adventure of discovering ‘what is out there’ now I know content is slim at the moment but the fact remains. I will NEVER get in a spaceship and explore the universe/galaxy in my lifetime as much as would love to. ED gives me the opportunity to do that, find weird systems and sometime amazing glitches that add to the experience.
I’ve never seen Elite as an opportunity to sit in my backyard and shoot other players, the galaxy is too big to waste time with that in my opinion.
There are thousands of games out there where the purpose is to shoot each other and do it very well. ED gives me a Galaxy to explore, why on earth would I want to do peew pew when there is a Galaxy to discover? (I’ll repeat at this point that I am aware content is thin on the ground for exploring) But at least I can find cool places to re-visit when content is added.

TLDR?
Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

Largely the same in my case... I also do not consider ED an appropriate environment for the unconstrained PvP many in the ED PvP community seem to desire.

I have played proper PvP games in the past and at the time have enjoyed the experience in the main. However, in the past 10-15years (perhaps a bit longer) the general aggregate attitudes of the PvPing community as a whole (not specific to ED and perhaps ED is one of the better cases) has grown increasingly arrogant and toxic overall. From my perspective, PvP has been killed by the growth of certain attitudes in society at large as those attitudes have seemingly adversely affected the aggregate attitudes of PvPers in general. PvP is no longer entertaining or fun largely as a result of this.

I rarely engage in PvP now (regardless of the game) preferring co-operative PvE, but even in the co-operative PvE environment there are some issues with a growth in certain behaviour patterns and attitudes. Not quite the same issues, but generally comparable and while these issues are far from universal nor necessarily dominent (yet), I have still noted a general net-negative trend that is comparable to that I have observed with the Pvping communities.

As for why I find the ED Main Game far from appropriate as a PvP environment - the short answer is rebuy/asset loss for the target and lack of suitable controls and consequences wrt attackers. Proper PvP games IMO/IME do not penalise the progression of targets and that is fundamentally the flaw with PvP in ED.

 

[Stigbob]

Oh dear, someone said carebear, and I was almost starting to like these forums.

I started playing a month ago and not flown a second in open. I don't think I'd like to have my multipurpose D rated python blown up in 10 seconds by an A rated and fully engineered ship.

Maybe I'll eventually consider outfitting a ship for pvp, but it's not something I'm going to "work" towards, as from what I hear 2 "meta" ships take ages to destroy eachother and it's quite boring.

Join Mobius dedicated PVE private group with 40,000 members. All the pro's none of the con's.
https://elitepve.com/

 

[NW3]

All of those things are simply because *some* people do not like any form loss or setback.

Unfortunately, that's not how life is, or pleasure truly derived. I hope that particular minority continue to be ignored in their desire to start a race-for-the-bottom as regards risk/loss in the game.

Losing a PvP fight in almost every other game results in nothing more than a lost battle.

For example, OverWatch is a good PvP game. When killed, the only loss is a minor setback: You respawn and run back to the combat. The only thing lost is time. The players all have differing powers and weapons, but everyone is fairly evenly matched.

PvP in E: D is nothing like that. If you lose your ship, you've lost hours of grinding to recover your insurance loss (and possibly exploration data or cargo). OP ships that have been massively engineered are essentially unkillable, unless you have a similar ship.

Those 2 comparisons get to the root of the problem: PvP in Open is usually severely out of balance.

There is no good solution to this problem (people will get upset, no matter what solution (if any) is implemented). Still, I'll take a stab at it:

• Add a new "Allow PvP" setting.
• If Allow PvP is disabled, you are impervious to other player's weapons.
• If Allow PvP is enabled, other player's shots can hurt you (this is like friendly fire enabled) and "Report crimes against me" is disabled.
• Add a new Pirate weapon: Stun. A pirate can gather cargo from a stunned player via hatch breaking and limpets.
• If a Pirate interdicts another player and that player shoots a weapon, Allow PvP is temporarily enabled for both the player and the pirate. Stun is disabled in this scenario.

I've probably overlooked something. Please feel free to engage in constructive criticism.

Another potential solution would be to somehow fix CQC and only allow PvP in that situation.