With the implementation o NEW Karma e C&P - Will the Log timer go up? 15 secs is to low!

[Mohrgan]

Did you know that FSD disruption missiles and mass lock torps/mines exist? So does that change your mind or do you have a bias?


All players that combat log should have to pay their ship rebuy amount to the attacker or the defender that did the most damage.

Ok all of you "Why do you have to pick on the PvPer's?" guys out there. Now is your chance to tell this guy that if you (the pvpers) don;t want to be insulted, then you should treat everyone with courtesy.

Having animosity over what environment any players decide to use is about as childish a notion as I can conceive of.

 

[Tarman]

Did you know that FSD disruption missiles and mass lock torps/mines exist? So does that change your mind or do you have a bias?


All players that combat log should have to pay their ship rebuy amount to the attacker or the defender that did the most damage.

Good thing you've got that covered for them in spades.

 

[Susanna]

Not even my fully engineered Corvette would resist a 30 second attack at PvP when just floeting without control. People would just pull the plug again. As i said, the new C&P system should people motivate to just take whatever comes because they know, the aggressor receives his penalty for that behavior. No need to increase the timer. It's already now high enough to make it a "no-option" during combat because nearly everyone would die sitting 15 seconds just around.
If you can't take out a playership in 15 seconds, than you have the wrong tactic and wouldn't win this fight either and so yiur opponent wouldn't even have a reason to log

Less than 15 secs to kill a tanked Cutter... I think not.

 

[Morbad]

Most ships wouldn't even resist a 15 second attack from an engineered aggressor.

Many ships will last much longer. I've seen people use the timer to escape attack in CZs, just to log back in a few minutes later to ambush people, rinse and repeat a dozen times.

The log out timer isn't there to give you the ability to escape from destruction, it's there as a compromise between letting someone leave the game cleanly and forcing them to stay and face whatever situation they have got themselves in to. Were this not a peer-to-peer system, they'd surely have your ship stay as long as it was at risk.

There's no counter to logging that I'm aware of.

Not unless you can destroy them before they can react.

It's already now high enough to make it a "no-option" during combat because nearly everyone would die sitting 15 seconds just around.

Essentially no ship without sufficient reverb cascade, or an all frag loadout, can strip the shields of a combat vessel of similar caliber in 15 seconds or less.

It takes my Corvette with 4 pips to WEP something like 120-200 seconds to make it through the shields of a heavily engineered Cutter that just sits there.

So in your ideal game, the options when ganked by some slughead are to die or have bad karma?

If you can't avoid the 'slughead' and haven't the ability withstand a close encounter, then yes, you should be destroyed. In practice you have to make a rather serious string of mistakes to be destroyed by another CMDR.

I personally wouldn't bother with karma, I'd just expunge the save of anyone who cheated their way out of legitimate in-game consequences, no matter how unfair the situation was.

Which I guess is why I typically choose option three: stay out of open.

A far better option than to cheat your way out of trouble.

It should be at least 60s. No matter for who and when.

Agreed.

Again, you aren't supposed to be logging out to escape danger...it's simply that they can't categorically refuse you the ability to leave the game legitimately. The timer should be the same for everyone and should be as long as is reasonable...which still wouldn't be long enough, but again, the whole thing is a compromise because it's a peer-to-peer game.

I'm not sure what would actually help beyond keeping the CMDR in the instance for a measure of time if he logs. FD doesn't seem to want to do that.

FD would love to do this. FD cannot do this.

The game is peer-to-peer. The instance host is always a CMDR and the clients talk to each other. There isn't any way to tell who disconnects from whom in real-time, and thus no good way to keep a CMDR in an instance after they disconnect. Trying to do so could well result in both CMDRs destroying each other's stationary vessels, one CMDR combat logging to turn the other's ship into an easy target, or one or more CMDRs being destroyed multiple times by different people in different instances at the same time.

Either way, confirmation should be moved to the beginning of the countdown.

Agreed. That way the timer can serve it's primary purpose no matter how long they make it.

Make it a five minute timer...click once, game minimizes, you can use your system for whatever, or just get up, and whatever happens in game happens.

Would be even better if it had a 'shut down system after timer' check box, so no one could reasonably complain about the four milliwatthours of electricity hanging around for a few seconds longer than they otherwise would have would cost.

 

[NW3]

I almost always play in Solo.

I don't really understand all the angst about combat logging. If someone logs out, you've won the battle. What's the big deal? Is your ego so small that you have to hurt the other player to feel like you've won?

I don't see any need for a timer at all. If someone leaves the battle, you've won by forfeit.

 

[Brrokk]

I almost always play in Solo.

I don't really understand all the angst about combat logging. If someone logs out, you've won the battle. What's the big deal? Is your ego so small that you have to hurt the other player to feel like you've won?

I don't see any need for a timer at all. If someone leaves the battle, you've won by forfeit.

I've read through this thread and others like it, and at last someone has said what I've been thinking. All these suggestions about timers and FSD features are just because "Winning the fight isn't enough, I want to make him eat a rebuy!"

 

[Morbad]

I almost always play in Solo.

I don't really understand all the angst about combat logging. If someone logs out, you've won the battle. What's the big deal?

You can still combat log in Solo and you still undermine everyone else's game by doing so to prevent loss you should have suffered.

Is your ego so small that you have to hurt the other player to feel like you've won?

Has nothing to do with ego, but saying you've won while your enemy is still in a position to harm or harass you is premature.

Without the ability to inflict tangible loss, there can't really be a deterrent, and violence loses all utility as a tool without the ability inflict actual harm.

I don't see any need for a timer at all. If someone leaves the battle, you've won by forfeit.

I don't care about keeping score. I care about smacking an attacker hard enough that they know they'll wind up bankrupt, or at the very least will come out of the encounter worse than when they started, if they persist in harassing me. Disconnecting on me prevents me from deterring future attacks by removing the downside from making the attempt and failing horribly.

I also don't like the idea of one set of rules for legitimate players, and a second, more lenient, more profitable, set of rules for cheaters.

 

[Han_Zen]

It should be at least 60s. No matter for who and when.

15 sec is more than long enough when there is a home emergancy.
Those happen every day in my house.

If they made it 30 sec for commander combat situations only, I'll be ok with that.

 

[drakhyr]

It has already been stated by FD that increasing the logout timer (to 30-60 seconds) is something that they are considering.

So we would not by default penalise using the combat timer.

However, we're still considering increasing this value to thirty/sixty seconds.

I have mentioned increased threat from Authority vessels, I think this is part of *any* solution. With Engineering, we definitely have ways to threaten the risk of ship destruction (anyone who's tasted the starport's external barrages should be able to attest to this).

We're also (separately) considering increasing the log out timer, to say 30-60 seconds) which would go some way to helping in at least some cases. There are possibly a few other things that might also help here (which I don’t want to muddy the waters with for now).

 

[drakhyr]

This is the real important fix for the log out menu item.

It's completely stupid that I have to wait 15s just to be able to click on the log out button. It's completely contrary to what should happen.

It should be:
- click log out
- warning that ship will be X s in the game and vulnerable in that time
- click OK
- screen shows count down
- after X s the log out happens.

Anything that isn't that way is simply taking the player hostage for no reason. Stop it!

I haven't been able to to find a written quote, but I'm sure Sandro has said (either on a livestream or as part of the Lavecon Q&A) that FD are aware that changing this is needed, especially if the logout timer is increased.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

You can still combat log in Solo and you still undermine everyone else's game by doing so to prevent loss you should have suffered.

While I agree that logging out isn't intended as a way to avoid destruction, at the same time the log out time isn't intended as a easy kill for the other players.

Has nothing to do with ego, but saying you've won while your enemy is still in a position to harm or harass you is premature.

Without the ability to inflict tangible loss, there can't really be a deterrent, and violence loses all utility as a tool without the ability inflict actual harm.

Even with ship destruction the other player is in the position to harm and harass you. The amount of credits, the time it takes to earn credits and the ability to instantly re spawn at a close location makes destroying an other ship completely meaningless for what you described.


In the end it's about the ego.
The refusal of a victory that the player think is his right to get. The idea that the other player is obligated to play with the player. The idea that on player has the right to dictate how an other player has to play.

It's a game and forcing players simply doesn't work.

The menu logging "problem" can't be solved because it is always just a compromise. It's there for "normal" players to use in situations where the want to stop playing and if they want to do it it adds some risk to the log out.

Like all things in this game it gets abused be some players. Just like the freedom of attacking everybody in Open Mode gets abused by some player. Like switching modes gets abused, like the limitations of the mission system gets abused.

At its core it's the players who insist to play this game in a way that wasn't intended (as a competitive game and as a way to harass others).

 

[babelfisch]

Ok, so you don't belong on this thread anyway.

And you don't belong on this forum if you can't accept that people have different opinions.

On topic:
How about removing the logout timer completely? That should also fix combat logging! Or how about a PvP private group where you can just kick everyone who doesn't play by your rules?

 

[Morbad]

Even with ship destruction the other player is in the position to harm and harass you. The amount of credits, the time it takes to earn credits and the ability to instantly re spawn at a close location makes destroying an other ship completely meaningless for what you described.

The farce of an economy we have in game is certainly a problem, and the penalties for losing ships are paltry, but these problems don't justify letting another slide.

Also, despite the trivial costs, ship loss is indeed a deterrent, as is evidenced by all the people complaining about how it's too punishing already and those people who disconnect rather than risk it, even though the disconnection is going to be condemned vastly more and generally be more of an ego hit.

It's a game and forcing players simply doesn't work.

Games break down if you can't force players to follow the rules or take a hike.

The menu logging "problem" can't be solved because it is always just a compromise. It's there for "normal" players to use in situations where the want to stop playing and if they want to do it it adds some risk to the log out.

I agree. However, the problem can be mitigated.

A longer timer, or one that resets if damage is taken within 30 seconds, for example, that doesn't need any input after being started would be an easy and, IMO, solid compromise.

At its core it's the players who insist to play this game in a way that wasn't intended (as a competitive game and as a way to harass others).

The very nature of the shared BGS (when it's working the way it's supposed to) encourages competition, and many other mechanisms that further reinforce this have been introduce along the way. The game is positively riddled with explicit and implicit competitive elements.

 

[Soopyyy]

Just treat combat logging the same as player killing. Add the same bounty to their loggers transactions and reduce their bounty so they can't land at federal, alliance or empire stations.

It will soon stop.

 

[Siobhan]

30 seconds would be a guaranteed rebuy if your phone or doorbell rings in combat. Even 15 seconds is for anyone not in a meta ship. I can already see opportunities for abuse here

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…Also, despite the trivial costs, ship loss is indeed a deterrent, as is evidenced by all the people complaining about how it's too punishing already and those people who disconnect rather than risk it, even though the disconnection is going to be condemned vastly more and generally be more of an ego hit.

I think that the problem is that it deters some players, but not those who do the things you described (using log out to avoid ship destruction while keeping attacking others).
In short, I think it deters the wrong players while it has no effect on those it should deter.

Same with the log out timer, there is - in my opinion - a high chance that it will mostly affect those who don't use it in an "abusive" way negatively while those who "abuse" it will just ignore the effects.

Games break down if you can't force players to follow the rules or take a hike.

Sure, there has to be rules. The problem is the enforcement of rules and the punishment for not following the rules. If the rules can't be enforced or if the effect of enforcing the rules is generally more harmful to the game than not following that rule - the rule makes no sense and is overall more harmful to the game.

…
A longer timer, or one that resets if damage is taken within 30 seconds, for example, that doesn't need any input after being started would be an easy and, IMO, solid compromise.

At first glance, yes it looks like a good compromise.
Until you realize that a lot of players fly around in unmodified ships, badly modified ships and small ships. 30s against a highly modified combat ship is an eternity for those players. The result would be equal to just destroying the ship on log out and thus removing the need of a timer.

Things get tricky at that point.
"You" want to motivate players to keep playing until the potential dangerous situation is over.
The logout timer only affects players how want to play within the rules of the game. Those who "abuse" any system they find for their own advantage won't care about it. If the logout timer is to long they will simply kill the task or do something else to avoid ship destruction.

The result is a system that only punishes those who play fair while it has absolutely no effect on those who it was intended for.

The very nature of the shared BGS (when it's working the way it's supposed to) encourages competition, and many other mechanisms that further reinforce this have been introduce along the way. The game is positively riddled with explicit and implicit competitive elements.

I a agree with that, but the game - beside BGS - isn't designed to be competitive. It has a lot of competitive elements for sure, but the game design doesn't support a competitive gameplay.

 

[two quiet suns]

I know this won't be popular but some of us have small clones that often get into the wiring and mess things up, sometimes you just gotta bail. Ok I dont PVP but even still I often have to wait 15secs to quit while fuel scooping let alone really dangerous activities.

If the timer increases then I will just have to kill process more often, I know this game is important to others and is important to me but when you gotta go, you gotta go and if you have a small child you can't wait.

 

[Siobhan]

I know this won't be popular but some of us have small clones that often get into the wiring and mess things up, sometimes you just gotta bail. Ok I dont PVP but even still I often have to wait 15secs to quit while fuel scooping let alone really dangerous activities.

If the timer increases then I will just have to kill process more often, I know this game is important to others and is important to me but when you gotta go, you gotta go and if you have a small child you can't wait.

Not just small humans either. Other small furry mammals can have a similar effect. And sometimes not so small but insistent creatures who crave attention also.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I know this won't be popular but some of us have small clones that often get into the wiring and mess things up, sometimes you just gotta bail. Ok I dont PVP but even still I often have to wait 15secs to quit while fuel scooping let alone really dangerous activities.

If the timer increases then I will just have to kill process more often, I know this game is important to others and is important to me but when you gotta go, you gotta go and if you have a small child you can't wait.

Dude? Didn't you get the memo'?

Some random person's virtual Internet spaceship is far more important than the welfare of a developing, vulnerable child.

 

[Skit]

I prefer this way.

You got 15-30 sec to log out if you will be shot in this time, the timer refresh to 15-30 sec, again and again so long you are under fire or dead.

So it is not possible to c.log while a fight and you have enough time to log out if you need it.