With the implementation o NEW Karma e C&P - Will the Log timer go up? 15 secs is to low!

[Genar-Hofoen]

I know this won't be popular but some of us have small clones that often get into the wiring and mess things up, sometimes you just gotta bail. Ok I dont PVP but even still I often have to wait 15secs to quit while fuel scooping let alone really dangerous activities.

If the timer increases then I will just have to kill process more often, I know this game is important to others and is important to me but when you gotta go, you gotta go and if you have a small child you can't wait.

Indeed.

Quite often a subset of the player base forgets that there are other, much larger subsets of the player base who either play the game differently - for example, they aren't rabid PvP'ers - or have very different needs and life circumstances, whilst also trying to play the same game.

So you get threads like these. There have been many like them in the past. They're started by players who only know, care, or focus on their own little playing style, and don't take into account vast swathes of other players when they make their demands.

In this case, it's a demand to increase the logout timer.

On the face of it, it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable demand. But you only need to start thinking about the possible different types, ages, and life circumstances of other players, and all the combinations thereof, and you begin to realise that increasing or even decreasing the logout timer isn't a black and white situation.

It's a far more nuanced subject and would affect not only the rabid PvP'ers - who on the whole would see this is a positive - but would have rather large consequences for a very large swathe of non-PvP'ers, a lot of those would be negatives.

In my opinion, the current time for the logoff timer - 15 seconds - strikes a fair balance between the needs of the rabid PvP'ers, and the needs of other player types.

I will also note that I've never 'combat logged' - when it became time for me to die at the hands of other players, I took it on the chin and learned from it.

At the end of the day, different subsets of the player base's need for a 15 second logout timer (and in some respects I submit that even 15 seconds is too long for e.g. parents of young children) outweighs a rabid PvP'er's psychological need to see a ship explode.

With the future changes incoming and with the eventual addition of a Crime & Consequence and Karma system, 'combat logging' will be dealt with. There is no need to increase the logoff timer from 15 seconds in that case also.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

People shouldn't be fighting over combat logging, because the problem isn't the players to begin with.

At the end of the day, this game isn't truly dedicated like EVE Online, where everything is kept online and logged in no matter what - a real sandbox, not an imitation.

This is a Peer-to-Peer game at its core - PvP has and always will suck with such a network system - if you expected anything more from PvP with a Peer-to-Peer network, then you're playing the wrong game to do PvP.

End of.

 

[Siobhan]

I prefer this way.

You got 15-30 sec to log out if you will be shot in this time, the timer refresh to 15-30 sec, again and again so long you are under fire or dead.

So it is not possible to c.log while a fight and you have enough time to log out if you need it.

If the timer resets every time you're shot, then it won't run out til the ship dies if you have to leave the controls. That's another guaranteed rebuy. Just make false accusations of combat logging into a lifetime ban, and increase the punishment for confirmed combat logging... And keep the timed logout as it is but confirm at the beginning not the end.

 

[Colonial Air Force]

You can still combat log in Solo and you still undermine everyone else's game by doing so to prevent loss you should have suffered.

How does it undermine anything!? No one is harmed by it. At all.

It shouldn't be done; it's against the rules, and punishable. But the rule itself doesn't make much sense since there's no negative effect on the attacker other than "didn't get to blow up a ship." Getting upset because one doesn't get to frustrate another player via virtual murder is sociopathic.

 

[Ian Skippy]

If the timer resets every time you're shot, then it won't run out til the ship dies if you have to leave the controls. That's another guaranteed rebuy. J

Thats the point, which is why other games do it. Logging out shouldn't be used to escape danger, period. If you want to escape danger, hi-wake and then leave. If you cant, you would have lost your rebuy anyway.

How does it undermine anything!? No one is harmed by it. At all.

It shouldn't be done; it's against the rules, and punishable. But the rule itself doesn't make much sense since there's no negative effect on the attacker other than "didn't get to blow up a ship." Getting upset because one doesn't get to frustrate another player via virtual murder is sociopathic.

Ehm, no. We're playing a game here. If you are trying to undermine my BGS, and everytime I nearly kill you and your illegal cargo you just cheat-escape, you undermine my BGS efforts. Simple as that.

 

[Siobhan]

Thats the point, which is why other games do it. Logging out shouldn't be used to escape danger, period. If you want to escape danger, hi-wake and then leave. If you cant, you would have lost your rebuy anyway.



Ehm, no. We're playing a game here. If you are trying to undermine my BGS, and everytime I nearly kill you and your illegal cargo you just cheat-escape, you undermine my BGS efforts. Simple as that.

If you want to do that then we need a "family" flag which can be set for such emergencies (kids, pets, partner, phone, door) with a single keypress that suspends all damage and interaction while one deals with the issue. If an attacker wastes ammo etc, then tough...

Also, accusing someone of cheat-escaping when they use the FDev Official logout should get the accuser a ban/rebuy etc for cheating themselves. Either that or go hunt NPCs who don't have other commitments.

 

[Kaocraft]

yes the "bad" guys should have higher risks, I'm all up for that. Maybe even a CANT log out! you CANT log until you clean your self the mess you made.(aka High wake to safety)

I got news for you: if you're Logging out of the game in the middle of a battle as your means of escape, you *are* the Bad Guy.

 

[Siobhan]

I got news for you: if you're Logging out of the game in the middle of a battle as your means of escape, you *are* the Bad Guy.

There's a difference between a "battle" and an "interdiction". And high-waking isn't even an option due to FSD scramblers.
Punish alt-f4 or similar in ANY legal way you like, but legal log-out is not cheating. False accusations need to be punished by FD, as do shared name-and-shame KoS lists.
Some of us have rl commitments, and even the 15sec timer can be the difference between coming back straight away or no more game for the rest of the day. Making the timer any longer is exactly the same as removing it altogether and saying no log out in combat, ever.

Go a step further and make open Iron-Man mode. In all combat, the loser gets to restart in a sidey. I'm sure that would be fair, wouldn't it?

 

[Hessfire]

I got news for you: if you're Logging out of the game in the middle of a battle as your means of escape, you *are* the Bad Guy.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes....
For all involved I will again state that FDev have repeatedly and emphatically said that menu exit is NOT CLogging, is NOT a cheat, and is NOT at issue - pulling the plug, router, Alt-F4 etc are...

 

[Ian Skippy]

If you want to do that then we need a "family" flag which can be set for such emergencies (kids, pets, partner, phone, door) with a single keypress that suspends all damage and interaction while one deals with the issue. If an attacker wastes ammo etc, then tough...

Also, accusing someone of cheat-escaping when they use the FDev Official logout should get the accuser a ban/rebuy etc for cheating themselves. Either that or go hunt NPCs who don't have other commitments.

Everyone has commitments, you are not special. And here is the deal: your commitments are your responsibility. When I play poker with mates and get a phone call I have to take, I just forfeit that hand. If I have to leave for whatever reason, I lose the game. Too bad. No crying about 'I have a live'. And if I am likely to get a phone call every fifteen minutes, I have the decency not to join in the game in the first place and just grab a beer and talk instead.

Its a game. Other stuff is more important. We get it, everyone gets it. So in the same vein, just accept your rebuy as its just a game, and its your responsibility. And no, when someone expects foul play FD encourages us to report it so they can investigate.

 

[Siobhan]

Everyone has commitments, you are not special. And here is the deal: your commitments are your responsibility. When I play poker with mates and get a phone call I have to take, I just forfeit that hand. If I have to leave for whatever reason, I lose the game. Too bad. No crying about 'I have a live'. If I am likely to get a phone call every fifteen minutes, I have the decency not to join in the game and just grab a beer and talk instead.

Its a game. Other stuff is more important. We get it, everyone gets it. So in the same vein, just accept your rebuy as its just a game, and its your responsibility. And no, when someone expects foul play FD encourages us to report it so they can investigate.

You seem to be implying that I log out in combat.
Please provide your evidence in your next post so that I can point out your error.

However, as many have said, menu-exit is not cheating. Please stop implying that it is. Nobody is forcing you to play this game. Exit via menu was in the game before you were, and no amount of salty tears will change that fact.

 

[Ian Skippy]

You seem to be implying that I log out in combat.
Please provide your evidence in your next post so that I can point out your error.

However, as many have said, menu-exit is not cheating. Please stop implying that it is. Nobody is forcing you to play this game. Exit via menu was in the game before you were, and no amount of salty tears will change that fact.

?

No idea what you are on about, so let me help: FD stated they are considering increasing the timer, for the reasons explained to you. You have counter-reasons. I explain why they are bogus. That is what this topic is about. No need to go all 'salty tears' when you run out of arguments. Anyway, I have to go. Dry them salty tears and all that.

 

[Riverside]

I spent a bit of time on finding a workable solution to this, mostly putting other people's ideas together in one place.

There is a way to increase the ship in danger timer without increasing the likelihood of CLogging.

However the more important lesson I took from the process was that many, many people just want to be able to complain, rather than actually being interested in solving a particular problem.

 

[Siobhan]

?

No idea what you are on about, so let me help: FD stated they are considering increasing the timer, for the reasons explained to you. You have counter-reasons. I explain why they are bogus. That is what this topic is about. No need to go all 'salty tears' when you run out of arguments. Anyway, I have to go. Dry them salty tears and all that.

As I have said, increasing the timer is equivalent to removing it.
It has always been there, but a certain group of "players" seems to think it takes away their hard-earned kill.
You're wrong! TBH, while I have never used the alt-f4 "ungraceful" exit, I do think that nobody in this thread nor elsewhere has the right to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do with their computer or bandwidth. Preventing someone from leaving is getting very close to the edges of legality too, though I guess that will be settled when someone sues - probably nothing will happen but...
If someone has to drop everything and run, be it to a door or a child injuring themself, then I don't think they should be punished for it just because some butt-hurt pro-bro can't see past the pretty sparkles to the person on the other side of the explosion.

 

[Ian Skippy]

It has always been there, but a certain group of "players" seems to think it takes away their hard-earned kill.

Including FD. And I see you still cant post without using terms like 'salty' and 'butt-hurt'. Your arguments just boil down to 'I like it this way', 'its not my responsibility if something calls my attention' and 'u just salty and butt-hurt'. These 'arguments' have been countered extensively, which is why FD is looking to increase it. Further name calling wont help your case much, so you may just want to leave that at the door.

 

[Red Anders]

Dude? Didn't you get the memo'?

Some random person's virtual Internet spaceship is far more important than the welfare of a developing, vulnerable child.

Nobody here is saying you should ignore your children and continue the fight though, they are saying that if you have to jump up in the middle of a fight and go AFK, you need to accept that you will eat a rebuy.

As someone pointed out above, people would really do well to remember here that this is only a discussion to begin with because the game uses a p2p architecture. On a lot of server-based games if you log out in the middle of a fight you lose it because regardless of the fact you may have closed the game, you're still in it as far as the other player is concerned due to the use of an infallible arbiter.

It's actually implied fairly clearly in this post from Sandro that if the game was in fact server-based in terms of player connectivity, they would be using such a system and the afore-mentioned rebuy would be an inevitability.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update

So have a discussion by all means but don't try to frame it within the context of players losing a fight if they log out in the middle of it being some cruel and unusual punishment because it really isn't. It is exactly what you would expect were it not for this game's p2p architecture and that wasn't chosen to facilitate combat logging.

I am (again) struck whilst reading this thread that we seem to have a lot of players whose experience of gaming since the online revolution is mainly confined to this game, since that seems to be where their concept of what is normal comes from.

 

[babelfisch]

Ehm, no. We're playing a game here. If you are trying to undermine my BGS, and everytime I nearly kill you and your illegal cargo you just cheat-escape, you undermine my BGS efforts. Simple as that.

Wouldn't it be easier to just play solo? Not saying I am a combat logging apologist (although all the discussions about it are quite ridiculous), as said above, I would welcome a private group where you can have your own rules like kick everyone who leaves the game. I still don't understand why this is not a thing, if Mobius is good enough for PvE, a dedicated private group is good enough for PvP.

 

[babelfisch]

Nobody here is saying you should ignore your children and continue the fight though, they are saying that if you have to jump up in the middle of a fight and go AFK, you need to accept that you will eat a rebuy.

As someone pointed out above, people would really do well to remember here that this is only a discussion to begin with because the game uses a p2p architecture. On a lot of server-based games if you log out in the middle of a fight you lose it because regardless of the fact you may have closed the game, you're still in it as far as the other player is concerned due to the use of an infallible arbiter.

It's actually implied fairly clearly in this post from Sandro that if the game was in fact server-based in terms of player connectivity, they would be using such a system and the afore-mentioned rebuy would be an inevitability.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update

So have a discussion by all means but don't try to frame it within the context of players losing a fight if they log out in the middle of it being some cruel and unusual punishment because it really isn't. It is exactly what you would expect were it not for this game's p2p architecture and that wasn't chosen to facilitate combat logging.

That's complete nonsense. First: Why is there a timer at all? Why is there a 15 second cool down when you are in combat when they could just disable menu logging until you are dead? Second: Sandro is referring to combat logging as ungraceful exit (pulling the plug, killing the task), he is NOT talking about logging to the menu.
Third: On the bolded part, nope, I don't need to face a rebuy if I survive 15 seconds (just hypothetically, I don't combat log...), cause that's how the game is currently designed, which is what people want to change here.

 

[Red Anders]

That's complete nonsense. First: Why is there a timer at all?

If you can answer that question you may get some clarity to the other issues. I mean give me a reason other than 'forcing you to remain in the instance for long enough to have a chance to die.' Personally I'm struggling... Bear in mind that the timer only exists when you're under some kind of threat if that helps to inform your thinking, there's no timer at all when I log out in deep space 20,000 LY from Sol.

I know what Sandro is talking about in his post by the way, for a start he did helpfully say it in the post. What he is doing though is contrasting what happens now when the cable is pulled with what would happen in a game with an infallible arbiter.

The current timer for logging under threat is there precisely because it is the only way to keep your ship present in the absence of an infallible arbiter which would otherwise perform the same role regardless of how you chose to remove yourself from the fight if configured to do so.

In short, one of the reasons that logging via the menu in the middle of a fight isn't currently considered to be an exploit is that the game is configured to mean that you don't instantly vanish on doing it. If you did vanish immediately without the current timer, I'm 100% sure that it would be considered an exploit because it would be no different at all to logging via pulling the cable.

Again, think about it - there is only a timer when you are under some form of threat. It's therefore pretty damn obvious what it is there for.

 

[Ian Skippy]

If you can answer that question you may get some clarity to the other issues. I mean give me a reason other than 'forcing you to remain in the instance for long enough to have a chance to die.' Personally I'm stuggling... Bear in mind that the timer only exists when you're under some kind of threat if that helps to inform your thinking, there's no timer at all when I log out in deep space 20,000 LY from Sol.

I know what Sandro is talking about in his post by the way, for a start he did helpfully say it in the post.

Yeah, but what Sandro says is only relevant when it supports the idea people already have. Sandro says using the menu isn't cheating? IT ISNT CHEATING SANDRO SAID IT!!!! Sandro says they might extend the timer and provides the reason for it? ONLY BUTT-HURT SALTY PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE A LIFE WANT TO EXTEND THE TIMER!!!!!

Quite... odd.