Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[Godsailsaqueen]

Still keeping up with the thread.

Nice ideas.
And the usual war between the boring masochists and the true fun aficionados... I should have known.

I just have this feeling again, about rushed features. It's the core of ED's model, placeholders, foundations and building upon them. The ADS was implemented too soon, and did not even satisfy the heads at fdev. Michael Brookes did not like it. Sandro does not like it.

Now I fully realise how impossible the reworking of features (not just this one) might be. And as Verminstar said early in the thread, what's the purpose of adding to dodgy foundations that you can't even bring back to the table. Now what? I understand why some things move slow in here.

Still, I'm convinced that exploration bears more potential than what we have right now.
- I'm obviously biased, I cannot ignore my own inclinations and gameplay ideals (that I seem to share with a good bunch)
- yet I just can't disagree with the points made by another good bunch relative to the arbitrary complexification / time sink-ation potential of it all.

The only side I can't seem to get is the status quo...

 

[MrFailfactory]

My counter-question is : where do you get off wasting precious tens of minutes of your lifetime hunting for a spinning virtual ball in space, when you could be spending that time actually exploring and examining them?

Is this the typical masochistic wish to make the game more painful I see so often on the forums?

If so - then meh.

But nevermind. I'm sure Sandro et all will see your wish to make the game more masochistic, and supply you and unfortunately me, with your wish to make the game even more boring.

I am concerned about this as well (both from Sandro's "musings" and Frontier listening to some of the ideas posted in this thread) - I like to think that most humans are intelligent enough to utilize at least a little bit of exponential thinking, but as I read this thread, I realize that I am wrong.

Hopefully, Frontier is more intelligent than all of us.

Edit to add: Some of the ideas in here would work very well in Star Citizen, or another game where the playable space is smaller in scope. In a space the size of Elite, they just don't work as well, or at all. The meat on the bones cannot be the "getting there," or "finding it." The meat needs to be what comes after that. The current ADS already provides a good avenue for the "getting there," and Heat Maps would do a good job of fleshing out the "finding it," but then what? This is really where Exploration is failing, and where it needs the most attention. The "it" needs to be worthwhile at least some of the time, and how we can interact with "it" needs to be at least somewhat engaging as well. This is where the focus needs to be.

Riôt

 

[mossfoot]

I think you've misunderstood. My post was about the IDS and BDS needing to be improved to be competitive with the ADS. The ADS functionally it's a different though related issue. My only point there was that all of the scanners should have a useful place in the game for veterans who have played for more than 1 or 2 hours.

Exactly - Let's look at the realities of exploration for a moment.

500LS distance is useless in the majority of systems.

1000LS is barely useful. Lots of systems extend beyond that.

However, being able to spot another star that is 250,000LS or 500,0000LS away - just how useful is that to the average explorer? How often does anyone bother going that far (for anything short of an Earth-like)

So let's look at my earlier shadow/gravity idea that is both a major boost to local system usefuless, while being only a minor nerf for super-long-range usefulness. For the sake of this example, locating a shadow doesn't actually pay out for Universal Cartographics (or perhaps at a reduced tier - Level 0 scan)

How would this actually play out?

In system:

Basic scanner - your honk shows the usual details out to 500LS, but will show shadows and gravity on the system map out to 5000LS. That's useful for most general systems, with only a few outlier planets likely not to get picked up.

Intermediate scanner - again, usual details up to 1,000LS, while shadow and gravity out to 10,000LS. In most systems that's going to include everything.

It won't give details, but will at least make it easier to decide on where things are that they can decide they want to get closer to (or not bother). FAR more useful than the current situation without actually being too much of a buff.

Advanced scanner - nerfed down to 100,000LS for full detail and shadow and gravity readings are infinite. Now, 100,000 LS is going to easily cover the distances that most people are willing to travel, and definitely everything within the local system (and most binaries too) - Those left in shadow at greater ranges are unlikely to be ones people will bother going to, but if they do want to, they still know what the central star is (as they already do on the system map regardless) and what the distances of the shadow planets are from it. An explorer can easily work out the odds of finding something in the Goldilocks zone and decide if it's worth the super-long trip.

Given how long it takes to go out that far, they're probably better off jumping to another system anyway (if the only thing they're interested in time/scan/money efficiency).

Bottom line, this would make scanning less silly with the infinite ADS detail range, allow most of the current ADS functionality to remain intact, while making a degree of consistency between the scanner ranges and making the basic and intermediate scanners more useful.

 

[lenna]

Bottom line, this would make scanning less silly with the infinite ADS detail range, allow most of the current ADS functionality to remain intact, while making a degree of consistency between the scanner ranges and making the basic and intermediate scanners more useful.

The ADS range is not silly, I would however agree that the BDS and IDS needs a buff.

Quite a lot of systems I have come across spread out over >100k Ls, In some of these cases the first star has no satellites of their own.

Whether I choose to go out to the other star or not is moot in the main and there may be reasons other than exploration to either want or need to do so... material gathering, missions, or perhaps just because I can.

To coin an old exploration related adage: "Why climb a mountain? Because it is there."

I do not object to a range buff to the BDS/IDS but I think the Parallax Exploration Masochists need to learn that what they consider fun is not the same as what everyone else considers fun. In addition, changing the nature of the ADS now would affect EVERYONE and not just the hard core explorers.

As a concession to your desires how about there being some kind of narrow band signal scanner feature on-board that allows you to identify and track down interesting emissions (or lack there of) that could yield some kind of bonus for their first discovery. This could be limited to orbital scans or attenuate with distance from the emitting body or source of emissions located on the body.

IMO There is no game play benefits that could adequately offset or justify the downsides of nerfing the current honk mechanic.

 

[Gypsy12]

I think in the end - we can all agree that we love exploring the galaxy.

The system we have at the moment is borked, and uninteresting. Nobody seems to like it.

I think, for the sake of clarity in this thread, especially as FD are reading it - exploration and "exploration missions" should be kept separate.

The focus - at the moment - should be:

Add more stellar bodies and improve the current ones. This goes without saying.

The player arrives within a new system. And honks. How do we improve that honk? One of the main problems we have is this: familiarity. We see at a glance the complete layout of the system. Unless it's a complex one, our interest rapidly wanes.

Is that what we really want? And there are lots of boring systems out there.

Rarer objects would be nice to provide incentive. More depth variation on Landable planets. More color! To start with. Cracked planets anyone?

I'm personally a firm believer that the ADS should not be infinite. So much of the "wonder" of exploration is lost due to its operation. But when it is limited - there must be a reward to exploration. It's that simple.

For the moment, until more content is added... It's probably better to leave it alone. Unless there is a financial incentive.

In the meantime FD, please get on with activating the comets in game! It would be great! Even a system you thought boring might suddenly become full of amazement. But then... The orrery map should be introduced. It would definitely add to the honk playability!

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

I think in the end - we can all agree that we love exploring the galaxy.

The system we have at the moment is borked, and uninteresting. Nobody seems to like it.

I think, for the sake of clarity in this thread, especially as FD are reading it - exploration and "exploration missions" should be kept separate.

The focus - at the moment - should be:

Add more stellar bodies and improve the current ones. This goes without saying.

The player arrives within a new system. And honks. How do we improve that honk? One of the main problems we have is this: familiarity. We see at a glance the complete layout of the system. Unless it's a complex one, our interest rapidly wanes.

Is that what we really want? And there are lots of boring systems out there.

Rarer objects would be nice to provide incentive. More depth variation on Landable planets. More color! To start with. Cracked planets anyone?

I'm personally a firm believer that the ADS should not be infinite. So much of the "wonder" of exploration is lost due to its operation. But when it is limited - there must be a reward to exploration. It's that simple.

For the moment, until more content is added... It's probably better to leave it alone. Unless there is a financial incentive.

In the meantime FD, please get on with activating the comets in game! It would be great! Even a system you thought boring might suddenly become full of amazement. But then... The orrery map should be introduced. It would definitely add to the honk playability!

your post broke for me on the second line. i far prefer the current system to any of the exploration inhibiting 'lets make it take longer and be more tedious so i can pretend i got a bigger peepee' options. and thats all it is; people trying to pretend they will be using more skill via more 'realism'.

if this 'realism' is true why dont we still do space missions in capsules with tech from the 1960s? why have much smaller, more power efficient and powerful navigation systems on modern spacecraft? surely by the 'realism' we should still be using the saturn 5 rockets? thats not how it works. technology ADVANCES - they try to make jobs quicker, easier, more cost effective. not longer more expensive and so tedious most people dont bother doing the job right if at all.

i have been to systems where its obvious either someone only had a basic or IDS, and never saw the star 200000Ls away with the earth like and waterworld binary around - or else they would have flown there and first discovered. either that or they were no prepared to spend ages in SC to get to the star even to scan an ELW!. if thats the case, and you make it so its pure luck to detect the distant star with ANY disco, or you have to do it manually with boring tedious parallax flying, then even LESS stuff is going to get found let alone scanned. what if on one of those is the thargoid homeworld or something important? we could all be following clues to a place nobody can be to find because its 700000ls away from the primary and some masochist decided to badger FD into nerfing the ADS range - so nobody even knows its there and its too far away from a star to show for parallax eyeball finding. no bright dot from that far away.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

I am concerned about this as well (both from Sandro's "musings" and Frontier listening to some of the ideas posted in this thread) - I like to think that most humans are intelligent enough to utilize at least a little bit of exponential thinking, but as I read this thread, I realize that I am wrong.

Hopefully, Frontier is more intelligent than all of us.

Really, is that how a forum thread about a videogame makes you feel about humans?
Gosh you must have a hard depressing time reading the news.

Some people could use a bit of relative thinking.

 

[lenna]

I think in the end - we can all agree that we love exploring the galaxy.

Agreed

The system we have at the moment is borked, and uninteresting. Nobody seems to like it.

Speak for yourself, while I agree some improvements would be welcome I would hardly call it borked or uninteresting.

I think, for the sake of clarity in this thread, especially as FD are reading it - exploration and "exploration missions" should be kept separate.

Not sure what you are getting at here...

The focus - at the moment - should be:

Add more stellar bodies and improve the current ones. This goes without saying.

Not sure about the necessity for adding more Stellar bodies but improving current ones how precisely?

I can see things being added but that may be more about general content than specifically improving the bodies.

The player arrives within a new system. And honks. How do we improve that honk? One of the main problems we have is this: familiarity. We see at a glance the complete layout of the system. Unless it's a complex one, our interest rapidly wanes.

We have a procedurally generated galaxy based on known scientific data, of course things are going to look very samey after a time. According to chaos theory, this could actually be representative of what it is really like out there. Lots of repeating patterns that seem random but repetitive at a superficial level but when you dig deep enough the patterns seem quite logical and highly complex. My point being if your interest is limited to the system map and the layout of particular systems then you are missing out on large swathes of content that is only really discernible on closer inspection of the bodies.

For me the initial system map is only the start of things, the level of information a honk provides is just an overview... and largely a basic topographical one. This is largely an essential feature IMO since ED is not purely an exploration based title.

Is that what we really want? And there are lots of boring systems out there.

Rarer objects would be nice to provide incentive. More depth variation on Landable planets. More color! To start with. Cracked planets anyone?

There are planets with deep chasms (not often - not seen one yet myself - but they do exist), and as for colour... there seems to be a fair amount of variety as it currently stands (at least given the fact that we are only landing on dustballs/iceballs with no atmosphere). I personally expect more variety when atmospheric flight and atmospheric planetary landings are added.

Exploration of (at least the upper/outer layers of) gas giants and finding forms of life on planets with atmospheres which could range from basic bacteria to some form of intelligent life. I have limited expectations in this area, and suspect that the vast majority of the variety in larger lifeforms (big enough to observe - mammals/insects/birds/fish/etc) will be restricted - I think expecting "Spore" level of dynamic variety in the larger lifeforms is unlikely.

The problem in general is that more variety does not necessarily mean better or more interesting gameplay and almost certainly will be limited overall due to FD's adherence to the common experience on all platforms policy. I think it is reasonable to expect higher resolution graphics and various effect refinements on the PC but diversity in general is probably going to be held back.

I'm personally a firm believer that the ADS should not be infinite. So much of the "wonder" of exploration is lost due to its operation. But when it is limited - there must be a reward to exploration. It's that simple.

For the moment, until more content is added... It's probably better to leave it alone. Unless there is a financial incentive.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point. However, no-one is stopping you from not fitting and using an ADS if you find it ruins your personal enjoyment. What does it matter if other players can use it because they find their enjoyment in other areas and location (and general look) discovery mere tedium and boring (regardless of level of diversity or mechanics).

In the meantime FD, please get on with activating the comets in game! It would be great! Even a system you thought boring might suddenly become full of amazement. But then... The orrery map should be introduced. It would definitely add to the honk playability!

Comets and other "travelling bodies" (e.g. rogue stellar bodies) might be a nice addition but I am not convinced they should be a priority at this point. In addition, rogue bodies and even comets could add certain complications to the mix - ELEs anyone?

Not convinced an orrery map would add much IMO (it might be visually impressive but that is about it), but providing it is only provided as a system view option I see no real major issue with it. I know at least some would expect it to be to scale (c/f the galaxy map) but that would present undesirable complications IMO... the galaxy map can be unwieldy to navigate and could do with improvement IMO (some of the issues with it being unwieldy may be insurmountable though).

 

[Mr_Zeno]

OK so the Infinihonk makes exploring a system easier and faster, but we aren't going to run out of systems to explore. Leave it please

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

OK so the Infinihonk makes exploring a system easier and faster, but we aren't going to run out of systems to explore. Leave it please

simple question though, should exploration be about quantity rather than quality?
I suppose that with a multi billion star galaxy I' ve got some of my answer, but how to work on that quality of exploration experience rather than just multypling half-nothing of a mechanic to oblivion till something comes out.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

you dont get first discoverer tag without closing in and detail scanning. the ADS lets me know what bodies there are. IF its changed at all it should be to flag up certain planets or rings or asteroid belts as having 'anomalous readings' which can mean anything from asteroids that are pure painite or platinum - and i mean its a big shiny rock thats ALL or 99% that one mineral/metal, or a thargoid fleet in hibernation, or an unknown civilisation if its a planet that is on the verge of space but not interstellar exploring. or maybe a long lost wreck or volcanic activity ongoing that you can drive the srv and see. MORE stuff to go scan and see. more reasons to choose whether to go to a planet which wouldnt be worth much even first discovered and scan and land on it for example. or something to give a value for scanning asteroid belts - right now they earn me nothing at all.

so i use my ADS and then i pick places that look like could be interesting and valuable to scan - Class H or N or white dwarf stars, possible metal rich/high metals i usually scan gas giants if close enough to avoid flying too far but i will fly long distance for a possible ELW (mostly they are waterworlds though). you dont get everything from the sys map after honk. you have to go examine some things. if i need mats for injection i need to can the planets to find out if they have the ones i need. exploring is more than jump honk scoop and leave.

 

[cosmo-genesis]

OK so the Infinihonk makes exploring a system easier and faster, but we aren't going to run out of systems to explore. Leave it please

There are over 400 Billion systems out there and by FDev`s own calculations.............only 1% has been explored...............tbh i dont think we will run out of things to explore for quite some time

i do not really understand the dislike of the ads........it shows the bodies in a system.............thats good imo.......that leaves the explorer free to move in and scan each astronomical body, the problem is that we are limited in what we can find...................... we need something to ignite the interest................. ancient ruins / collapsed cities from an ancient civilisation / more active volcanism - geysers / things of general interest.................even if these dont tie into the great alien mysteries.they would be fun to find and explore imo

I read one post where the Cmdr lands and checks each body he scans, i have nothing but respect for such dedication and thoroughness, however, we do not have unlimited life-spans...it is not humanly possible to land and scout EVERY landable body in the galaxy..... we need a new scanner type that will reveal any surface P.O.I`s and relay the EXACT co-ordinates back to the ship..............why...............because it is unfeasible imo to scout for P.O.I`s the way it is..................even a very small moon is quite large when you are in your Srv

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

There are over 400 Billion systems out there and by FDev`s own calculations.............only 1% has been explored...............tbh i dont think we will run out of things to explore for quite some time

i do not really understand the dislike of the ads........it shows the bodies in a system.............thats good imo.......that leaves the explorer free to move in and scan each astronomical body, the problem is that we are limited in what we can find...................... we need something to ignite the interest................. ancient ruins / collapsed cities from an ancient civilisation / more active volcanism - geysers / things of general interest.................even if these dont tie into the great alien mysteries.they would be fun to find and explore imo

I read one post where the Cmdr lands and checks each body he scans, i have nothing but respect for such dedication and thoroughness, however, we do not have unlimited life-spans...it is not humanly possible to land and scout EVERY landable body in the galaxy..... we need a new scanner type that will reveal any surface P.O.I`s and relay the EXACT co-ordinates back to the ship..............why...............because it is unfeasible imo to scout for P.O.I`s the way it is..................even a very small moon is quite large when you are in your Srv

I read you,

the problem is (and I start to be repeating myself so I'll leave it at that) that one does not simply build stuff to discover, to fill a galaxy.
See the time it took for adding guardian ruins, generation ships and alien structures. And that's only THREE new things. So the interest wears off quickly for one looking for new stuff...

Due to the procedural nature, and to avoid the artificial feeling it can induce sometimes (such as the old canisters of tea on every planet you drive on, hypothetical cities spread accross faraway systems with no logical sense), you'd need hundreds of handcrafted unique items to inject into the procedural construction, and how do you build hundreds of handcrafted items without the ressources? After some time, even them would start to wear thin and feel usual. Even cities, even geysers.
That's why a POI scanner is really some sort of no-go in the current situation, because you'd immediately see that there are only so few of them. It would be like a magnifying glass over a zit.

You can't base exploration on content only. There's a galaxy to fill. Maybe make some content that's less impressive or diverse, but with "good" gameplay to back it up. Which seems to be pretty hard for FDev now, coming up with new gameplay.

 

[lenna]

Maybe make some content that's less impressive or diverse, but with "good" gameplay to back it up. Which seems to be pretty hard for FDev now, coming up with new gameplay.

Thargoid content coming in a series of patches under the label ED v2.4?

I think we all need to keep in mind that FD have declared their intent on focusing on refining things in the v2.4 patches and we will all have to be patient in that regard.

 

[Trickylion]

Change the 3 levels of ds and combine with Dss.
Level 1 system honk as is with Dss on fly by
Level 2 fds honk, basic star type info on galmap within fds range of ship
Level 3 Galaxy honk. Star type info on galmap as is now, cost of this scanner 1 billion credits and only available at beagle point.

 

[cosmo-genesis]

Change the 3 levels of ds and combine with Dss.

Level 3 Galaxy honk. Star type info on galmap as is now, cost of this scanner 1 billion credits and only available at beagle point.

I have never been bounty hunting, i have never been in a CZ ( or a CG for that matter ), i have nowhere near that kind of bank balance...........should i be excluded from exploring because im not a combat jockey ?

i did basic mission running and cargo transports to make enough money to buy and outfit my python for exploring.................. not every Cmdr is rolling in cash

 

[lenna]

not every Cmdr is rolling in cash

I believe they were being sarcastic... Seen this kind of response before... typical hyperbole type reaction to those that disagree with the counter arguments to requests for change that they agree with...

No one is suggesting any such change should be done but as a counter point I think we can all agree that some positive additions to near object scanning and surface exploration would be welcome.

 

[Turbosnowy]

I'm at 14% pioneer now and worried because if I keep scanning crap then I'll reach elite in exploration and not even gone that far from the bubble yet which would dampen my enthusiasm somewhat - however to add context I have scanned ALOT of unexplored systems in completion within around 1-2k LY from the bubble to get to pioneer. With regard to giving up the honk, I would be up for it if there was something compelling to replace it with in terms of wonder and majesty of mysteries to be discovered out there - jumping from system to system and seeing beige after beige, merely sighing at the count of the number of moons you are going to need to scan to complete this next beige system is not exactly ideal.

Frontier created a 1:1 galaxy which is a major technical achievement in my mind - it's just a shame that in their pursuit of scientific realism they managed to bork it so badly i.e. our own solar system is not all beige, so are we like 0.000000000001% rare or something or should beige systems actually be pretty rare themselves, considering our planets are fairly different in colours etc (not an astronomer so who knows, I know Carl Sagan wouid)

Let's be able to scan planets and find interesting things on them from the DSS, so we can land and get the SRV out to go Wooo at something, and maybe collect something neat. Let's scan planets/moons and collect various types of data (geological/seismologoical/radiological etc) and where something is precedurally generated to be out of norm, have something interesting to go see or scan or collect or mine or whatever.

Let's just stop with the beige already

 

[etien]

Add spaceporn:
Accretion disk
Comets
Meteor crashing on planets
Borealis

Add cool missions:
Please return data from blah, with us having to install satellite or do studies on the planets
Please find pois on planet blah, with pois being guessable from satellite studies
Please cumulative stuff to discover ( not instanced )

Add cool stuff
Zoom and planetarium ( naming of stars and constellations that we see )
Orderly

Bonk is ok

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

Add cool stuff

you won me there