Hostility between certain mindsets aka antagonistic v co-operative play - a short point of view

Good grief! It's Friday for heavens sake, I can't make much sense of this or anything else on a Friday (some would say any day for that matter) and my coffee is decaffeinated (I ran out of the real stuff) so I'm working under more of a handicap that normal. Whatever normal is.

I have to disagree somewhat with your analysis since as far as I am concerned there is pretty much an infinite spectrum between the two opposing mindsets that you suggest so even thinking about your rhetorical question is difficult.

So I guess that answer is probably, yes.
 
'Please' may have been more effective.

I did it by myself. Always leave an area that doesn't belong to you the way you have found it! :p
Also why shall I ask for someone to repair something he/she has broke? That's self-understanding. :|
 
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You definately see the age gap in mindsets. I am of the age group that only a pathetic loser fights someone weak. You only challenge those a bit stronger or similar to you and after a fight its "best man one" and no grudge. Grudges were for girls (whose fights were very rare but evil lol). We did that in the playground and in adulthood. Now it all seems win at no cost haha attitude. In life and in games you see this. Unhealthy in my opinion as men need a code of honour.

You get different codes around the world. I lived in thailand and all boys learn unarmed combat. They can kick your head in easily. One thai guy can eaily beat up 3 westerners who arent ex military. But they are taught tactics - always fight only when you outnumber an enemy by more than 6 to 1. Society had a code though - if you are attacked you def deserve it! Making a thai guy angry is very hard. They learn patience. When you see westerners get beaten up its for something serious.

My point even if it is just a game i was brought up with values of what makes a man. Even if you were a pc geek you knew the rules. All societies had them even if different. I see that slipped in society and you see it in ED!
 
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Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Moderation is biased and let anti PVP threads run far longer, than an anti PVE thread.

Citation required.

We get just as many complaints we are biased against PvE as PvP. If you have a problem with a post, report it. If you think a moderation decision is wrong then contact BrettC.

We do make mistakes, we are human, and we will correct them.

Now, back on topic, and a reminder:

Moderator actions aren’t always correct; if you feel that a moderation action was performed against you incorrectly, please see the final post on how to appeal. Openly posting about a moderation action upon you or others on the forums will not be permitted.
 
Interesting post. As a photographer I've done quite a lot of wildlife photography for Nat Geo, and the main reason we don't intervene is due to nature. That Leopard needs to eat, its not really comparable to PVP in Elite because they don't need to kill anyone they are doing it for fun, which in my book is totally fair enough.

I disagree that the skill gap is at all big in this game, but i'll try to explain why.

The best way i can think to describe the PVP vs PVE community in Elite is like this:

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Where as in the vast majority of other games its more like this:
map-saturation-overlay.png

I've said this before but i believe ED is trying to appeal to the masses, but ED is primarily a PVE game. Its a fact that this game is mostly played by an older age range, more mature people who want to play a more relaxed sandbox. That is fine btw, I've always enjoyed a healthy mix of hardcore games with sophisticated ones. I've raked up more than my fair share of hours in flight sims and sub sims.

The gradients i showed above show how PVPers and PVEers clash in Elite compared to other games. Lets take Eve for example, most people wanted big fights and battles, and power. Some didn't, but they knew full well that the game was designed around such content and even the industry minded person who didn't PVP AT ALL and focused purely on cornering the market and being a tycoon never complained about PVP the way people do in Elite, even though when they lost in that game they lost BIG where as in this game you lose barely nothing.

Going back to my original point; the skill gap isn't as huge as other games by far, Eve, even Arena in WoW it could take years to master and some people never could the skill gap was just SO high, look at SC2 for example.

If you imagine a group of Lions fighting a group of Tigers, you've got yourself a competitive game like those previously mentioned with a massive skill cap. If you picture a group of Lions in with a group of Meercats, you've got Elite. You've got people who focus entirely on PVP like SDC, CODE etc in a universe full of primarily PVE oriented people who just want to make friends, be social and enjoy the universe, its like fire and petrol. What im saying is you dont have to be good in this game to beat people who dont want combat, you just have to want combat...

I don't mean this as a dig but its not that these PVP groups are so good at all, they would likely be totally out-matched and not at all as infamous in a game with a primarily PVP competitive community, they just are in Elite because they have picked the rarer role in a PVE oriented game.

There is something fundamentally wrong with Elite in regards to this and I've always said i believe its due to them trying to expand their target audience to everyone, they want the competitive world of Eve inside their primarily PVE chilled universe and it dosent work imho.
 
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The victim complex on this forum vs anything remotely PVP is strong.

Moderation is biased and let anti PVP threads run far longer, than an anti PVE thread.
The majority of the active posting Mods are clearly PVE focused and some admit they will not ever PVP. How can you not expect a bias?
If you inject a little reality into an anti PVP thread, you get insulted by the PVE players. You get your post removed, points and the PVE players circle up and aim for the next one.

All pirates are killers and cowards
All PVP player killers are 12 year old naughty boys and their role play isn't valid
Snidey little insults and swear evasion, which are left in threads.
There was even a thread once using a Non consensual Love Strawman, about being forced to drink tea. Clearly aimed to at non consensual PVP. I mean come on.....

Skill in this game seems to be a side requirement for some people, who demand that the game is designed for their limited ability or inability to want to improve.

You will hear play my way, its my right, its my choice blah blah blah.
Almost always coming from a view point that something is unfair because other players are stronger or have better ships or attack them when they didn't want to be attacked or killed them at a station.

Recently a massive QQ thread about a Corvette in a system who killed a player. Thread was labelled griefer and off it ran for days.
1 Single player in a Corvette apparently locked down an entire system.
You multiple this to maybe a couple hundred PVP players of note and that is the entire griefer army this game apparently cannot deal with. ( Remember that number will be split over multiple time zones )
Most of the original PVP groups quit, the rest at the moment are in a holding pattern, waiting to see if there is going to be anything worth coming back to in 2.4.
You will get the reply, why should PVE players be forced to PVP to remove PVP players? Well they shouldnt but then they also shouldnt play in a mode with these players.

If it was FDEV's plan to kill PVP, well its working. Could they maybe please come out and state that, so that the people who are still remaining can just stop making the effort?

You will see a massive justification from PVE players how credit exploits are part of the game because I am sure Lord Braben intended people to make 1billion in a couple of hours by skimmer killing or the many many other credit and rank exploits, which have enabled players to go from Sidewinder to A Rated Cutter in a weekend.

These same players then cry foul of the game, when their Sothis Cutter gets ganked by a Vulture with PA's

Yes there is a huge PVP vs PVE, Hardcore vs Casual Strong vs Weak divide.

Its not going to go anywhere because of the design of the game.
Changes that would be required to address this will never happen and then you have the mystical C&P unicorn, that everyone who wants the game to protect them is holding out for.

Once you get even half good at this game and start making smart choices. Open is entirely safe.
You will never be ganked by a wing of Fully Engineered FDL 12year olds or destroyed by a Station for flying above 100.
I have mentioned it before but the only thing left that will get you killed is the mines being dropped in station ( which will get patched ) and your own inability/stupidity.

Taking an anything less than a full battle cow T9 Trade ship to a CG, will get you killed.
Flying a shieldless trader in any system that might have pirates, will put you entirely at their mercy.
Taking on an engineered ship in an stock ship, is going to end badly for you.

Is this unfair? Nope, its bad game design.
It would be unfair if you didn't have access to exactly the same things as the better players.

Trying to force your weaker play style onto Open and hoping it will work, is the mistake that for some unbelievable reason most of this games player base keeps making.
I know people dont like being a victim but you put yourself in that situation by your own in game choices. ( Did he just Victim blame..Oh no he didnt ) ...

PVP players have mostly turned to murder hobos because there is nothing else left to do in a PVP enabled game. What do you expect? ( No they are unlikely to sit down in a drum circle and talk about your feelings on Open player )
Co-Op in this game is a joke and entirely skill-less unless you decide to nerf yourself to inject some challenge.

Brett C once posted that people need to Get Good. ( Some time back when NPC's were actually a challenge. No I cannot find it to prove it but you all know he said it )

I think that post got removed after a raging forum took that little gem of truth as a personal slight

People who want to Pootle around in a space ship can do that in Solo, Mobius or their own private group.
Why do they think they should be able to do it in Open and not have an increased risk?

Yeah, that's basically the point of view many "victims" have. But after all you could say that those who continously destroy other CMDRs have the upper hand. I mean, forum moderation won't save their ships from getting blown up I suppose? :p
And I remember that post. I bookmarked it and I pmed you it right away!

But as said, actions are way more important than words. With that post I hope to encourage some people to reflect their own mindset from all kinds of player groups. This is what I expect.
There is no point in writing a forum or reddit post "CMDR X griefed me in system Y. Kill that Spare part of a HE seeker!". I mean, anyone, including the poster, can do that, no? Sure there will be some trying to follow the call but due to game limitations it's basically impossible to accomplish that goal. It must happen randomly when these players in question stumble across.
Some people select Open Play and accept that PvP is enabled with all the potential consequences. And some just select Open Play expectign everyone to follow their rules. You know what mindset can be assigned to either side.

Ultimately by getting rid of positive and negative point of views one hopefully will arrive at the natural point of view and is able to enjoy the game better than before. :)
 

Powderpanic

Banned
Citation required.

We get just as many complaints we are biased against PvE as PvP. If you have a problem with a post, report it. If you think a moderation decision is wrong then contact BrettC.

We do make mistakes, we are human, and we will correct them.

Now, back on topic, and a reminder:

Impossible for Citation

Posts that trigger people get entirely removed and any discussion over moderation actions results in a ban.

But to give the best example available.

On a bile train thread a few days about about a block feature. I posted something that contained a whole lot of game truth.
The post was removed, thread locked and then a version 2 thread popped up yesterday.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Impossible for Citation

Posts that trigger people get entirely removed and any discussion over moderation actions results in a ban.

But to give the best example available.

On a bile train thread a few days about about a block feature. I posted something that contained a whole lot of game truth.
The post was removed, thread locked and then a version 2 thread popped up yesterday.

As noted above. No discussing moderation openly on the forums.

Moderator actions aren’t always correct; if you feel that a moderation action was performed against you incorrectly, please see the final post on how to appeal. Openly posting about a moderation action upon you or others on the forums will not be permitted.
 
Impossible for Citation

Posts that trigger people get entirely removed and any discussion over moderation actions results in a ban.

But to give the best example available.

On a bile train thread a few days about about a block feature. I posted something that contained a whole lot of game truth.
The post was removed, thread locked and then a version 2 thread popped up yesterday.

In fairness to Yaffle there are a lot of threads that go toxic very quickly usually on the subject of Open/Solo, PVP PVE and its usually just repeating the same things and ALWAYS ends up getting to a point that needs locking. Can honestly say i've been moderated less on here than any other forum and i do often post some pretty unpopular views :)
 
In fairness to Yaffle there are a lot of threads that go toxic very quickly usually on the subject of Open/Solo, PVP PVE and its usually just repeating the same things and ALWAYS ends up getting to a point that needs locking. Can honestly say i've been moderated less on here than any other forum and i do often post some pretty unpopular views :)

Though I don't know where the argument of Open/Private/Solo comes from? I haven't mentioned it anywhere, not even in an indirect way. Actually I was focusing on Open only as that is the mode most of the in the OP described scenarios occur. :|
 
Should be *snort* insted of *slurp*

I don't recommend this. Coffee is great. I mean tell me it isn't and I shall hunt you down, But please don't snort coffee*.

* unless it's international roast; i think it's actually devoid of coffee and about as inert as diamond. But still. Don't snort coffee, kids.
 
Though I don't know where the argument of Open/Private/Solo comes from? I haven't mentioned it anywhere, not even in an indirect way. Actually I was focusing on Open only as that is the mode most of the in the OP described scenarios occur. :|

Sorry mate that was a generalisation of the forum as a hole not your post :).
 
Since this is just another Open V PG/Solo thread, shouldn't it just be merged?

I mean there's not really anything innovative or new in the OP that hasn't been said many times before.

As I see it, this boils down to an almost religious set of opposing beliefs i.e. Open is the one true and only way! v pretty much every other position it seems.

No modification of Open is allowed to change the way PVP open players like to play but they're happy for everyone else to made to change their games. A similar but much less noisy opinion exists on the opposite side, and it's been like this since at least Beta.

Can't we all just get along and remember that the only important thing is that we absolutely Must Blame T.J.?
 
Should be *snort* insted of *slurp*

No, no, no, no no! Don't snort when drinking coffee, it makes a terrible mess of the keyboard.

Since this is just another Open V PG/Solo thread, shouldn't it just be merged?

I mean there's not really anything innovative or new in the OP that hasn't been said many times before.

As I see it, this boils down to an almost religious set of opposing beliefs i.e. Open is the one true and only way! v pretty much every other position it seems.

No modification of Open is allowed to change the way PVP open players like to play but they're happy for everyone else to made to change their games. A similar but much less noisy opinion exists on the opposite side, and it's been like this since at least Beta.

Can't we all just get along and remember that the only important thing is that we absolutely Must Blame T.J.?

Not really, the majority of the thread is about blocking in open. It's the people trying to derail the thread and get it closed that are referring to the other modes.

You're correct about Sir T.j wherever he might be.
 
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Before this thread gets closed on the grounds of moderator contestment I just wanted to say that I liked the OP's contemplative reflection on the nature of strong/weak (with no negative connotations to either, as the OP went to pains to point out), predator/prey mentality. I'm slightly baffled (yaffled?) by the whole removal of the smiley thing and have to say that some of the mod comments here seem to have rather baited what was quite a nice interesting reflection into something a bit more negative where no negativity was apparent (to me at least) to begin with. Anyhoo, I don't want to get into trouble myself but thanks again OP, this went very nicely with my own morning coffee (and hangover). ** slurp **

[heart] Peace

o7
 
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Since this is just another Open V PG/Solo thread, shouldn't it just be merged?

I mean there's not really anything innovative or new in the OP that hasn't been said many times before.

As I see it, this boils down to an almost religious set of opposing beliefs i.e. Open is the one true and only way! v pretty much every other position it seems.

No modification of Open is allowed to change the way PVP open players like to play but they're happy for everyone else to made to change their games. A similar but much less noisy opinion exists on the opposite side, and it's been like this since at least Beta.

Can't we all just get along and remember that the only important thing is that we absolutely Must Blame T.J.?

It so is Not. This thread is about mindsets, not the playmodes of Elite. Please read my post (again).
 
It's coffee break time here, so I read this post with interest.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I have said this about a million times in the million threads on this subject.

Open is Open is Open. It means that anything goes. I play about 4-5 hours a week, sometimes less, sometimes more. I ain't got time for that engineering stuff so I just pootle about in my spaceship.

BUT, I only play in open. It's not that Open > Group > Solo, it's that for me it's more fun.

I've been blown up a couple of times, by CMDRS and NPCs but so what? I saw each time as a learning curve and now, I strongly disagree with the fact you can't take anything less than a T9 Battlecow to a CG. I've flown in lots of trade CGs with ships varying from a Hauler (to scout the system for cmdr activity) to my more usual T7, rarely get interdicted cos I fly safe, and when I do either submit for piracy (if comms) or high wake out (no comms) to try again after repairs (if needed). My builds allow me to do this because I have learned the hard way what works.

To have a mindset where this isn't how you approach a game (learn from mistakes, get better, learn the environment you are in) is very alien to me, and more so if you have a different (but equal of course) mindset but then enter Open anyway expecting it to be rainbows and fairy cakes.

Fly Clever, fly safe, fly with the attitude to match the mode you're in.

07.
 

verminstar

Banned
It so is Not. This thread is about mindsets, not the playmodes of Elite. Please read my post (again).

I did...over my morning cuppa tea. I thought it a fairly harmless parody at first, but now I see yer actually being serious. Ok I can dig that.

So, it would appear on the outside that one is a carebear, but thats not entirely true. Im perfectly comfortable ruining someone eleses game to further enhance my own or if the pay is good. But this game doesnt allow that sorta playstyle, and I wont go outta my way to intentionally grief others because it has no effect on my game and players cannot exchange money anyway. So behaving like a testosterone fuelled teenager is both without a point and simply not in my nature.

The animosity between the two mindsets comes mostly from frustrated players who cant understand why nobody wants to play with them. I avoid the multiplayer aspect of this game because of the lack of choices in what one defines to be pvp. Not all pvp includes such primitive things as guns and pew pew, but this game doesnt have the options to encourage that mindset.

Where we go from here is a pickle and thats no doubt...but I leave the op with some rep because I do understand the point...whether or not I agree...Im still thinking about that if truth be told. Only I see the issue as being game design as opposed to immature players who dont have the sense they were born with as being the problem ^
 
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