Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yep. I think we are going to see this very same conversation happen again and again as Frontier start reworking things like Trade, Smuggling and other areas. People will keep jumping in asking for things to stay the same because of..."xxxxxxx".

People aren't asking for things to stay the same though.

My worry is that we've seen how Frontier innovates. Engineers. They may create the most engaging mechanic seen to man, or botch it up and make gaining a basic knowledge of a system a chore. A recurring chore each and every jump. It's the frequency that is the challenge here. And if they botch it up, since it's the first step in investigation ... any improvements FD makes after that will suffer as well.

And when the replacement mechanic is introduced, built upon with other mechanics FD can't simple reroll the changes. See Beigification.

Don't dismiss this worry by attributing it to fear of change or lack of imagination (eh Ziljan? Key riced man)

The current ADS mechanic won't create dependencies in follow up mechanics. All what is revealed is system configuration.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The hardest part of any discussion of core mechanic overhaul is to convince players to shelve the Cr/hr, rating/hr consideration in favour of a discussion of whether the activity involved is engaging and fun.

So with that in mind, is the ADS infinite honk engaging or fun?
What improvements or changes to exploration would make it (more) engaging and fun?

Cr/Hr doesn't interest me. The honk isn't fun, but also doesn't get in the way. I feel there is more potential for improvement in planet investigation than there is in planet discovery. And since planet discovery is needed each system, it's going to be one hell of a job no create a manditory mechanism you'll engage in again and again and again without it going stale.

 

[Red Anders]

The hardest part of any discussion of core mechanic overhaul is to convince players to shelve the Cr/hr, rating/hr consideration in favour of a discussion of whether the activity involved is engaging and fun.

That's true, no argument from me there but within the context of exploration you really do need to remember that it has just had a significant buff to earning potential precisely because it was absolutely terrible prior to that. I think that's one reason that anything which would see that reduced again might be a bit of a hard sell.

Personally I don't explore specifically for credits, I'm an all-rounder in terms of what I do in game (although I'm not just pottering around the edge of the bubble when I do go exploring, my last trip out was over 100K LY) and I have other activities which will give me a decent payday if that's what I'm after.

One of the problems with exploration prior to the recent buff to data values though was that it was seen by some players as a bit of an Elitist (arf!) profession, something that you did when you'd already made the credits to have a couple of decent ships, rather than something that you could actually do from day one to earn the credits to acquire a couple of decent ships within a timescale that an average player would find reasonable.

That's really the point at which the earning potential in the game needs to be balanced in my opinion, allowing players to do whatever activity they are drawn to from day one and through doing it, giving them the potential to earn enough to investigate the other activities as and when (or if) they feel the urge to broaden their horizons.

 

[Gibbonici]

Should a lot of this initial groundwork be done for you by the honk? i.e. should the honk tell you that it's a water world? Given today's technology we would be able to determine this using a telescope and a spectrometer as soon as we were in the system.

Should you then only have to fly to a body (within a reasonable distance) after you knew what type of planet it was so that you could perform a detailed survey?

In other words, the "Discovery Scanner" discovers and catalogues, the detailed surface scanner is transformed into a detailed surveying tool which is only used when close to a body and requires skill to get the best ot of it.

No, there should be other steps in the surveying process that help narrow down the decision to fly across the system to see if that world is a water world (it wasn't BTW) or terraformable, or the chance of it having certain materials or features. This could be done through a pattern matching minigame or something, maybe using different interfaces based on what your scanning for. I'd love it if you did this from a dedicated exploration station that came as part of a module, that way multicrew exploration can be an actual thing - while you're flying to the positive prospects, your crewmate is scanning the next likely looking body.

Detailed surface scans would still be done close up and bring up more detailed information, such as areas where certain materials or features are likely to be found. From that point there could be upper atmosphere scoop samples and SRV-based or fighter-based surface surveys to do too.

You wouldn't do this for all worlds in a system though, the initial honk already gives a skill-based means of sorting out decent potentials from rubbish ones. All I'm suggesting here is a way of further narrowing that sorting without having to fly backwards and forwards through often massive systems. And you wouldn't need to use this extra stuff - you could still honk and surface scan, it would just be a less efficient and specialised way of exploring.

 

[Mengy]

I just came from the lave radio podcast, so forgive me if this has been gone-over in the thread.

Fdev, you should take a look at Cold Waters. It's Exploaration/Identification mechanic involves matching sonar signals to identify different classes of ships. I think Elite could use a similar mechanic. Each type of stellar body has a different signal. The closer the commander's ship is to the signal, the more clear the signal. When the commander matches the signal to the planet-type signal that is the "Default", the planet is identified. Commanders already do this with the SRV scanner. The discerning commander can tell what kind of rock by the signal, this mechanic just takes that one step farther and puts it in space.

If bodies are far away, the commander can honk to briefly spike the intensity or clarity of the signal to identify bodies that are farther away. The better class of honker, the more clear signals it gives. This will minimize the supercruise time, but still give the sense of scale to space.

Finally, this signal identification can make finding anomalies easier. If there is a signal that matches a planet type 95% but has a different spectrum line or signal spike that doesn't match any other planet or star types, then it could mean an anomaly (like a guardian or thargoid structure) is present on the planet so a commander can take a closer look and use other, shorter-range exploration tools to scan the planet in detail like probes, shuttles, or specialized surface scanners.

In summary this mechanic:

• *Adds gameplay in space
• *Rewards skill. Players more familiar with planet signals can identify planets faster and from farther away.
• *Preserves sense of scale without frustration.
• *Preserves verisimilitude, you are identifying signals from your ships insturments, not sysmap background noise!
• *Re-tools rather than removes the honk
• *Makes sure a commander only flies to a planet if they are interested in the planet in the first place. (I.E., a signal anomaly), This reduces SC travel and is satisfying when anomaly is found.

I'd say that matches up very well with Sandro's design goals:


For those curious, here is an example of a youtuber playing cold waters using the identification mechanics to identify an enemy vessel. Look in the bottom right "signature" panel.

Yep, this is what I would love to see! Go the old sonar waterfall from Red Storm Rising/Cold Waters route with planet identification. It would add an SRV wavescanner type feature to system exploration, which would be fantastic IMHO.

It is still effectively REMOVING the honk in any real sense of the term... so forget it IMO.

You can forget about it, but I for one would still love to see the ADS morphed into something more interactive and engaging. I wouldn't mind losing some "jonking" effectiveness in order to make total system scanning faster and more interesting. I still think having an infinite honk is needed with regards to revealing the layout of the system map, but I just want the process of identifying and scanning planets to be more involved and rewarding from a game mechanic point of view. Kestril's above suggestion is exactly what I would love to see, and it would even fit into Elite nicely seeing how the SRV scanner already works very similarly.

We can't be afraid of change if we really want better game mechanics, because the single button honk we have now is just not a great mechanic, it just isn't.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

People aren't asking for things to stay the same though.

My worry is that we've seen how Frontier innovates. Engineers. They may create the most engaging mechanic seen to man, or botch it up and make gaining a basic knowledge of a system a chore. A recurring chore each and every jump. It's the frequency that is the challenge here. And if they botch it up, since it's the first step in investigation ... any improvements FD makes after that will suffer as well.

And when the replacement mechanic is introduced, built upon with other mechanics FD can't simple reroll the changes. See Beigification.

Don't dismiss this worry by attributing it to fear of change or lack of imagination (eh Ziljan? Key riced man)

The current ADS mechanic won't create dependencies in follow up mechanics. All what is revealed is system configuration.

I totally agree with where you are coming from here. Getting basic information about a system should not be a chore, especially a boring one.

Another thought, is that Frontier need to make sure they don't go too heavy with any RNG elements in whatever game mechanics they come up with, because that would be truly awful. In fact, I hope there is no RNG involved in any new exploration mechanics, and they instead rely upon intelligence and player skill.

 

[stephen_usher]

No, there should be other steps in the surveying process that help narrow down the decision to fly across the system to see if that world is a water world (it wasn't BTW) or terraformable, or the chance of it having certain materials or features. This could be done through a pattern matching minigame or something, maybe using different interfaces based on what your scanning for. I'd love it if you did this from a dedicated exploration station that came as part of a module, that way multicrew exploration can be an actual thing - while you're flying to the positive prospects, your crewmate is scanning the next likely looking body.

I didn't necessarily say it would give all the information, however, enough to satisfy the impatient "honk and go" "explorer". Telling you enough information to make it interesting is important though. Just enough to give the flavour. At the moment it just gives "Unexplored" and a very slight hint of the type from the picture. Giving the general definition, e.g. "Water World" and an approximate atmospheric make up would be sufficient to wet the appetite and closer inspection would reveal more... as you alude to below.

Detailed surface scans would still be done close up and bring up more detailed information, such as areas where certain materials or features are likely to be found. From that point there could be upper atmosphere scoop samples and SRV-based or fighter-based surface surveys to do too.

You wouldn't do this for all worlds in a system though, the initial honk already gives a skill-based means of sorting out decent potentials from rubbish ones. All I'm suggesting here is a way of further narrowing that sorting without having to fly backwards and forwards through often massive systems. And you wouldn't need to use this extra stuff - you could still honk and surface scan, it would just be a less efficient and specialised way of exploring.

I would suggest that the current "surface scan" is utter rubbish and really turns players off, which is why I suggested the middle ground of a slightly better (in terms of information) honk but complemented by a more intensive close quarters survey to get more information. The more intensive (and potentially skilled) the survey the more information you get, such as POIs and other surface features (e.g. alien sites). Translating the last part into gameplay is the tricky bit.

 

[stephen_usher]

I totally agree with where you are coming from here. Getting basic information about a system should not be a chore, especially a boring one.

Another thought, is that Frontier need to make sure they don't go too heavy with any RNG elements in whatever game mechanics they come up with, because that would be truly awful. In fact, I hope there is no RNG involved in any new exploration mechanics, and they instead rely upon intelligence and player skill.

I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. Random numbers should play no part at all. However, deterministic procedural content, such as mineral distribution on a planetary body, should be the order of the day (along with planetary body location bookmarks).

 

[Gibbonici]

I didn't necessarily say it would give all the information, however, enough to satisfy the impatient "honk and go" "explorer". Telling you enough information to make it interesting is important though. Just enough to give the flavour. At the moment it just gives "Unexplored" and a very slight hint of the type from the picture. Giving the general definition, e.g. "Water World" and an approximate atmospheric make up would be sufficient to wet the appetite and closer inspection would reveal more... as you alude to below.



I would suggest that the current "surface scan" is utter rubbish and really turns players off, which is why I suggested the middle ground of a slightly better (in terms of information) honk but complemented by a more intensive close quarters survey to get more information. The more intensive (and potentially skilled) the survey the more information you get, such as POIs and other surface features (e.g. alien sites). Translating the last part into gameplay is the tricky bit.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying here. It sounds like we're both aware of the same problems and just have slightly different solutions in mind.

The way I see my idea about the exploration station module working is that it would provide a lot of the information that the surface scanner provides (without having to fly there), and then if you do decide to fly in for a closer look, the surface scanner would resolve some of that information with more detail which can be further resolved by surveys from low orbit or from the planet's surface depending on if it has an atmosphere or is landable.

How long these steps would take would need to take account of the flight time they would save. I think the amount of time we can spend in a system is about right as it stands (I for one will move on from a system if it looks like it'll take too long to take a proper look at), but it would be good if that time was spend a bit more interactively and immersively. I think having the option of gathering more detailed information earlier in the process would make some of those larger systems more attractive to properly explore.

 

[Zeeman]

Should a lot of this initial groundwork be done for you by the honk? i.e. should the honk tell you that it's a water world? Given today's technology we would be able to determine this using a telescope and a spectrometer as soon as we were in the system.

Should you then only have to fly to a body (within a reasonable distance) after you knew what type of planet it was so that you could perform a detailed survey?

In other words, the "Discovery Scanner" discovers and catalogues, the detailed surface scanner is transformed into a detailed surveying tool which is only used when close to a body and requires skill to get the best ot of it.

You can already do this with the audio files of a planet - though, you need to know what to listen for, and you won't get any cash for it without a close up scan, regardless...

Z...

 

[lenna]

We can't be afraid of change if we really want better game mechanics, because the single button honk we have now is just not a great mechanic, it just isn't.

It is however not a terrible mechanic either. There is precedent for the approach too when you consider current state of the art in technology and comparable systems in the sci-fi genre as a whole... It already has verisimilitude, which is one of the key points FD seem to be looking for.

I have pointed out that there are areas of exploration that can benefit from the "increased depth" ideas outlined in this thread without touching the DS mechanic in any substantial way. The SS mechanic may get some substantial changes however, but more in terms of additions than actual nerfing (although some of the details may be toned down or found to be incomplete/inaccurate after subsequent near body scans).

As I have pointed out earlier, it is a bit late in the day to be drastically changing the nature of the DS mechanic and there is no justification to do so when you consider that near body exploration seems to be what FD wish to encourage. The discovery phase of exploration does not grant the "first discovered" marker - only surface scans do and they require the scanning vessel to be in a sensible range. I could perhaps see justification for allowing surface scans at longer ranges with supplemental interactive scanning equipment (something along the lines of manual spectral analysis perhaps) but that would require a delicate balancing act and would need to be implemented in a way that makes sense and not imbalance first discovery bonuses too much.

However, the DS/SS parts are not really the aspects where exploration is lacking - it is the near body activities that really need work.

 

[stephen_usher]

You can already do this with the audio files of a planet - though, you need to know what to listen for, and you won't get any cash for it without a close up scan, regardless...

Z...

That unfortunately puts those with hearing difficulties at a disadvantage.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

However, the DS/SS parts are not really the aspects where exploration is lacking - it is the near body activities that really need work.

You are assuming that Frontier are not going to add things to find in space other than planets, and that those things might require a different type of deep space scanner.

Whilst I agree that the ADS could stay the same for the current purposes. That doesn't mean the only thing lacking is "near body activities". There is lots of room for adding deep space exploration, and Sandro has already hinted that they are looking at adding just that.

 

[lenna]

You are assuming that Frontier are not going to add things to find in space other than planets, and that those things might require a different type of deep space scanner.

Whilst I agree that the ADS could stay the same for the current purposes. That doesn't mean the only thing lacking is "near body activities". There is lots of room for adding deep space exploration, and Sandro has already hinted that they are looking at adding just that.

Actually, I am not - in an earlier post I did not rule out the addition of features that DS's can not detect - USS's are a prime example of features that are not picked up until with-in passive scanner range. FD have already have added some persistent USS's (the exploration vessel wrecks) and I see no reason for them to stop there. The notional justification for such things not being detectable by the DS mechanic might be lack of mass and magnetic footprint therefore minimal to no impact on planetary orbits.

 

[Kestril]

Yep, this is what I would love to see! Go the old sonar waterfall from Red Storm Rising/Cold Waters route with planet identification. It would add an SRV wavescanner type feature to system exploration, which would be fantastic IMHO.

Thank you. the thing is, that mechanic allows for even quicker identification of bodies compared to scanning planets now (just watch how quick jingles identifies enemy subs), and it's way more engaging. Fdev should give it a look, at least.

We can't be afraid of change if we really want better game mechanics, because the single button honk we have now is just not a great mechanic, it just isn't.

Agreed!

 

[shreddog]

I totally agree with where you are coming from here. Getting basic information about a system should not be a chore, especially a boring one.

Another thought, is that Frontier need to make sure they don't go too heavy with any RNG elements in whatever game mechanics they come up with, because that would be truly awful. In fact, I hope there is no RNG involved in any new exploration mechanics, and they instead rely upon intelligence and player skill.

Actually RNGineers is a rather fun mechanic in itself. It's the long winded dreadful collection of mats and data that is the chore. The rolling itself is rather fun.
If only they kept the fish..

 

[etarm]

I'll go so far as to say that all three scanners, BDS, IDS & ADS actually need to provide us with more information than they currently do. I may get sniped for playing the immersion card, but if we accept that the scanners actually work, then once we know the location of the planetary bodies in the system, we should be able to pick up their spectral signature (at least for those within a reasonable distance to us, dependent upon the telescopes in our scanners), and knowing their spectral signature should tell us something about their atmospheric composition (or surface composition for rocky and icy bodies without atmosphere). Where is our spectral data analysis?

 

[Titler]

I put some ideas up over a year ago now; I'm repeating them here just to add to the debate. Keep infinite honk, but give us more utility to it!

Onboard Record Keeping:

A simple one, and one often asked for, but firstly there should be an accessible page aboard your own craft which lists the total of each type of discovery you've made; that is

F Class Stars = 1000
O Class Stars = 1001

etc. This should list all available discovery types so people have a goal to explore for; "Hmm, I've not claimed my own Black Hole yet, out I go again". There should also be a second page listing all the data you've gathered but not reported so far, to encourage people to feel like their progress along the way isn't pointless. And from this we get...

Advanced Honking:

Upon completing an Advanced Discovery Scan, as well as listing the total number of objects found, it should also state "Number of Objects of Interest: X". What are these? Each type of object, F class star etc should be checked against the player's recorded data for the following (as a rough idea)

* Minimum/Maximum size
* Lowest/Highest gravity
* Lowest/Highest temperature etc

I'd love for elevation/depth below surface to be taken into account, but I've no idea if the data is easily mined for this from planetary surfaces. But you get the idea. Upon initial honk it checks your records against the system and if it spots a record is broken, it says "Objects of Interest: 1" etc. It doesn't tell you where or what it is though, but it would let you know that something in the system is worth going and having a closer look at. Ideally if the idea was implemented, the previous marked discoveries would be updated into your records, that is anything with your name on previously would seed the initial records.

It would also allow much easier cross checking of inter-player achievements and if when you returned you had an outright record, there should be a big cash bonus, and perhaps an automated comment in Galnet about "Enormous new Earth Like discovered at..."

Also you could set your own "Interest" objects by type, so if you're looking for Earth Likes you could toggle them on, and again, it wouldn't say where one is, or if that's the "object of interest" or something else, but when honked, it registers a hit...

 

[lenna]

I'll go so far as to say that all three scanners, BDS, IDS & ADS actually need to provide us with more information than they currently do. I may get sniped for playing the immersion card, but if we accept that the scanners actually work, then once we know the location of the planetary bodies in the system, we should be able to pick up their spectral signature (at least for those within a reasonable distance to us, dependent upon the telescopes in our scanners), and knowing their spectral signature should tell us something about their atmospheric composition (or surface composition for rocky and icy bodies without atmosphere). Where is our spectral data analysis?

Arguably, that is where the DSS comes in - the Discovery Scanner would seem to be primarily gravitic/magnetic sensor, there would seem to be no spectral processing until you do the surface scan.

I have not run a ship in a proper exploration context without a DSS in a very long time so I do not know what the current differences are between having the DSS fitted and not, but my guess is that any automatically derived information requiring anything more than basic spectral processing would require the DSS to be fitted. A half way house between what you are asking for and what some of the others seem to be asking for might be to allow CMDRs to do manual spectral analysis at long range (i.e. longer that what the automated surface scan can manage). It could even result in partial or misleading information but if you are looking for something specific it may quicken your search.

 

[Yure]

I love exploration. Problem with exploration is that I hate exploration in ED. ED has a base concept to be great. Problem is I discover all these awesome landables for nothing. One you have to go down on the planet and hope you drop on something cool... But you don't... The farther you get away from the bubble the more true this becomes.

There is one thing sticking to reality, but when, you have to depend on luck to find anything it kinda sucks.

I got instruments that tell me there is geysers... But it doesn't tell me where they are at? I have an awesome planetary map and there is a cool grid system... But I can't set manual waypoints?

I have some magical instrument that gives me POIs, but it doesn't tell me what that POI is? Also sometimes it has false positives.

On the other hand... There is POIs for rocks.... But no POIs for ruins... Or barnacles? No, I know the ruins has been somewhat fixed, and barnacles appear once you discover them. But everything else that we haven't dicovered because it has no markers?

But yeah thanks for that poi for carbon in sure that was worth my landing time.

Point is we want to explore but there is nothing to explore except the depths of disappointment. The other day after telling myself I'm just gonna honk and go I decided to land on a rock just cause... "what if" then as did multiple re-entries" and even just cruised 2km off the ground as I web browsed hoping something would come up... You know what I found nothing...

The whole time I was thinking to myself what a glorious waste of time. I can't even rack up materials cause apparently my empty tonnage of space can't carry the extra rocks.... There is literally nothing. Worse part is the silence for FDEV, it would be different if FDEV would come out and say there is REALLY cool stuff out there... Like intergalactic breakthrough stuff, but no... You are left wondering if all this wasted time was for nothing because all the cool stuff is behind permit locks... Or waiting for a patch to drop a-la-US.

Yes we want cool exploration stuff that makes us satisfied, please don't make it sound based I can't tell a note from another, if it takes more time, make it worth our time.

It's not like you'll run out of canvas... You have this galaxy which is largely unexplored, and if somehow that runs out, I'm sure you can conjure up another.

Permit locks are horrible. It's literally a race to check them when new patches come out.