YOU can decide the fate of Lave

[Perseus]

Independent Corporations are old establishment templates. Alliance Democracies are new.

So I guess the future belongs to the one who inserted new ideas to the table indeed.

Slippy argument that is it's own victim.
I'm pretty sure our hunter/gather ancestors were practicing the fundamentals of democracy (inclusion of all members of their small tribe) and alliance building (including warfare between tribes) long before corporations or even empires existed on the African Savannah.
The Alliance idea is as old and crude as a flint spear.

Only wicked minds see wicked things everywhere.
If you are a dishonest person, don't project that onto others please. The sole reason why some are so dedicated into spreading the alliance's values is because they truly want people to be independent, they want people to be free. There is not one flying shi(p?) given about "domination"

The real question to me is why would independents wouldn't want to protect their independence ? That's what the Alliance is made for, to protect people's independence and freedom.
Independents fighting against the Alliance sound exactly like 14 yo being mad at their parents because they dared warn them that putting their hand over the fire burner might cause pain... Ridiculous...

Independence protected by being part of a superpower - whether you like it or not. The projection of said superpower as a parent to immature and irresponsible independent systems. Isn't this the standard raison d'etre of the dictatorship?
You do indeed have a deliciously wicked mind, Cmdr.

That's correct. That's the point. The selling point in fact for Independents to join, since they acquire that extra safety net.

Either way, Lave Radio won't be acted upon vindictively. In facts there are discussions going on for a long term solution.

Other than that, the only explanation I can give about the rest is: "For some people the narrative changes depending on who they like. So we are evil today because they like Lave Radio, but tomorrow might ask for our help because the Feds are knocking on their back door"."

There is not much else to it. Most people know the lore, the Alliance would indeed be justified to defend, etc. It was ok when we defended Lave from the Code because people didn't like the Code. Now what changed is only the standing of whom is behind the attempt to make a claim for the system.

I guess people under the Alliance heel have to like what you tell them, eh? All part of being independent. After you've sold the Alliance mutual defense product to a system, there are no refunds.
The Alliance has claimed the system - there is no standing/law higher than the Alliance. Might is right, however much to wish to tart it up.
The point is the tip of of a weapon.

Being Independent doesn't mean anything anyway.It just means you're not part of a superpower. The whole attitude that Independents are by default the holy grail of morals and chastity is quite frankly, overblown. As evident here, where the Alliance is slandered for rallying a defensive front.

A golden nugget of truth.
Of course, your so called defensive front hasn't been seen as such by those you have suppressed and dominated.
Ahh, the dilemmas of being a dishonest, dominating force. Best just to be straight.

But whatever happens moving forward - force will be met with force.
The Alliance is a mutual-defense pact.

Spoken like a true Imperialist.

 

[ranix]

I think Lave Radio should launch a branch out in Empire space on the frontier at the Pleiades. You'd have a captive audience out at HR1185. And plenty of room to grow. City people are always fighting over dead rocks, it makes no sense. There are more resources on the frontier

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Want to go over the list of the largest Independent groups to see if that "expansive" argument holds any water?

Guess I used the wrong word. "Expansionist" would be the one I wanted to use.
The Alliance is expanding - expanding more than any other faction or superpower. And it's a coordinated effort.
Some (a lot) Alliance players have a strong expansionist attitude.

The Alliance "ethos" doesn't mention anywhere that member states are not free to expand anyway.

Expanding in this games happens via conflict. Conflict is the opposite of freedom of choice.
(Sadly systems asking to join the Alliance doesn't exist in ED. It would be cool if there was a game play mechanic that allowed factions to switch superpower alignment.)

Being Independent doesn't mean anything anyway. It just means you're not part of a superpower. …

That was my point. My reply was about exactly that (and about the tone of the posting I replied).

An independent system doesn't protect or defend their independence by joining the Alliance.

 

[Sentenza]

Yes it is pretty confused. I'm confused by the actions of the AEDC. When did the Alliance become the Federation-Lite?

It always was. They just dropped the mask.

 

[Apos]

The great thing about the Alliance is that its member are free enough to make their own choices instead of being forced into impossible standards set upon them, by non-members no less, allowing their critics to endlessly move the goalpost into how they have to prove that they value their own version of "independence" in order to be rewarded with kind words in return.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way and that would be committing suicide in order to prove that you value life.

So go back to your hollow rhetoric while the Alliance indeed upholds the values it was established upon and indeed protected the ability of one of its members to govern freely.

 

[UselessThing]

You can tell that Alliance subjects are free to make their own decisions by the way any disention results in the Alliance elite sending soldiers to put down the peasants.

 

[Apos]

You can tell that Alliance subjects are free to make their own decisions by the way any disention results in the Alliance elite sending soldiers to put down the peasants.

Well, thank you for calling us "elite", but in reality it's just peasants helping other peasants.

Maybe this is what people fear most and want to slander the Alliance for...the fact that they just can't chop the head off a society and have the common man obey out of fear, but instead have support from elsewhere to retain their peace.

Merely the critique of predators calling it unfair that their prey learned to depend upon each other instead of being an easy catch on its own.

 

[UselessThing]

Well, thank you for calling us "elite", but in reality it's just peasants helping other peasants.

Tell that to the starving Lavian children toiling in your work camps to produce the luxuries that fuel your fancy Garden City dinners.

 

[Frank]

I'm not one of the grown-ups sitting at the negotiating table. But two things strike me here:
1) That sounds absolutely like the sort of case that Lave Radio Network will be making.
3) It's kind of hard to sell back to the Alliance CMDRs who have just defended Lave. "a few nice words" seems kinda insufficient.

There were some problems with the diplomatic efforts early on, and you will find that many Alliance CMDRs will hold the position of not giving even an inch.
Getting your proposal through the Alliance Assembly would involve a lot of noise and angst.
We're a irascible mob, with long memories and sharp tongues.

There are other potential solutions, too.
From outside the box here's one: Lave Radio Network could petition for a CG for a Mega-Ship.
or they could petition Brett C to change allegiance to Alliance.
Both of these ideas have significant problems, and are a hard sell to the constituents and stakeholders.

But whatever happens moving forward - force will be met with force.
The Alliance is a mutual-defense pact.

It is good to hear that there are ongoing talks. I'm not in a position to see how the civil war is fairing, but whatever the outcome, this is not a problem that will go away. The resources of the Alliance are better allocated to more cut and dried situations that require their help. i'm very hopeful that an amicable arrangement can be agreed upon.

 

[Perseus]

The great thing about the Alliance is that its member are free enough to make their own choices instead of being forced into impossible standards set upon them, by non-members no less, allowing their critics to endlessly move the goalpost into how they have to prove that they value their own version of "independence" in order to be rewarded with kind words in return.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way and that would be committing suicide in order to prove that you value life.

So go back to your hollow rhetoric while the Alliance indeed upholds the values it was established upon and indeed protected the ability of one of its members to govern freely.

Nah - the Alliance has set it's own standards and is the one moving the goal posts as it plays the superpower game.
We can all see it.
A party in Lave wanted to establish control and self determination (I'm sure you'd define that as independence).
The combined effort of the Alliance superpower mobilized to prevent this bid for freedom because the Alliance is all about independence.
Aye, it all makes sense.

 

[Apos]

Nah - the Alliance has set it's own standards and is the one moving the goal posts as it plays the superpower game.
We can all see it.
A party in Lave wanted to establish control and self determination (I'm sure you'd define that as independence).
The combined effort of the Alliance superpower mobilized to prevent this bid for freedom because the Alliance is all about independence.
Aye, it all makes sense.

It's almost as if the point of the Alliance is for a faction to have allies against other factions that threaten it, regardless of their shirt colour.

I know murder is common in the Empire when it comes to governance changing hands, but up here it is not considered a legitimate way to establish self determination.

Regardless of the outcome, you would be here slandering the Alliance anyway. If the Liberals lost the argument would be that the Alliance is incapable of defending their members instead.

Just the ramblings of the Imperial establishment crumbling and attempting to paint rigid forms of unity and cooperation as worse than them to hide their own shortcomings.

 

[comaci]

Well it depends how far you want to go back. Before the events of Lave revolution (which was written by one of the presenters) it had always been a independent system. Its only since then its been an alliance stronghold.



Well it depends how far you want to go back. Before the events of Lave revolution (which was written by one of the presenters) it had always been a independent system. Its only since then its been an alliance stronghold.

so a independent state votes(one hopes) to join the alliance, but when they want out the alliance, the alliance response is to send in the troops, highly democratic set of ideals, what are they afraid to loose?

 

[Apos]

so a independent state votes(one hopes) to join the alliance, but when they want out the alliance, the alliance response is to send in the troops, highly democratic set of ideals, what are they afraid to loose?

Well, I'd go into that again if it was the actual situation.

But since it's not, it doesn't matter how much it is repeated.

There have been cases of members leaving the Alliance on their own volition actually. In fact I'm aware of at least 2 examples. This is not one of them, but merely an attempt at a hostile takeover.

 

[Ironwolves]

The good is to liberate the people of Lave from Alliance misrule and return the future of Lave to the hands of Lavians.

You do know that the Workers of lave are Lavians that you started to murder with no provocatiion? and that when a system joins the alliance that there arnt really any rule or law changes ... so yea "freeing" from the alliance isnt really the right wording for this.
Murdering innocent civilians in an attempt of an independent company to take over the free people of Lave with murder and war...

But he, you do you and keep telling yourself that murdering people of a system is actually freeing them and that waging war with a free faction is saving them a superpower, eventhough the only pact they have with the alliance is a defense pact that you felt comming down on you

plus you can say whatever you want, you lost anyways



Hugs and kisses

 

[Ouberos]

As a long time member of several Independent groups I have no horse in your race and am simply an armchair conspiracy theorist.

I would like to point out that FD may have forseen BGS alterations to Lave when they locked out Lave 2. I think the Workers of Lave are contractually overseeing Lave 2 aren't they? In which case I would suggest they are hiding something. Something potentially troubling involving Dr Waldren.

This would suggest massacring them is entirely legitimate and to be encouraged. Personally I suspect there is a whiff of the Monozygote about them.

 

[DNA-Decay]

For a long time, my tradition when visiting a new Alliance asset, has been to deliver a cargo of Lavian Brandy.

First time out to the Secret Research Bases in the California Nebula.
First trade delivery to Ross 128 when we took the Prison there.
To Melbourne Park, when I got the Alioth permit.
To Dublin Citadel in Gateway when I cracked Rank 5 for big Eddie after the Federation merit snipe.
To Darwin Research Laboratory when we flipped that to Turner Research Group.
To Hamilton Gateway when I joined the AEDC. (Sculled a beer on comms).
To George Lucas when we threw out the hated dictatorship Justice Party of Leesti.

When the supply of Lavian Brandy dried up during a CG, the Diplomatic Corps manipulated the BGS to put Lave back in Boom.

All this and I haven't unlocked Didi.

The Alliance custodianship of the Old Worlds is not trivial.
Its the same as when The Code declared a "New Caribbean". Except this time our opposition are nice folks.

Folks have gone to ridiculous lengths for Lavian Brandy.

Any contest for Lave will be fought hard.

 

[Apos]

As a long time member of several Independent groups I have no horse in your race and am simply an armchair conspiracy theorist.

I would like to point out that FD may have forseen BGS alterations to Lave when they locked out Lave 2. I think the Workers of Lave are contractually overseeing Lave 2 aren't they? In which case I would suggest they are hiding something. Something potentially troubling involving Dr Waldren.

This would suggest massacring them is entirely legitimate and to be encouraged. Personally I suspect there is a whiff of the Monozygote about them.

The Lave 2 permit is not available yet, so can't provide a concrete answer over who does that.

All I can note is: Out of 3 surface ports in Lave, 1 belongs to the local anarchy, 1 to Lave Incorporated and 1 to the Independent Dictatorship.

Workers of Lave Liberals had no claim in Lave 2 until this war was won, which gave them Goldstein Depot, a level (++) settlement, previously controlled by Lave Radio.

So if anyone has any information what's going on down there, I'd say Lave Radio has been down there longer. Maybe the conspiracy pendulum swings the other way.

/tinfoilhat

But the fact that there is lore planned for the system is one more of the reasons why the system is important. If anything, to kick Mr. Walden's (or his son's) for good this time.

 

[UselessThing]

plus you can say whatever you want, you lost anyways

As always with the Alliance, might makes right.

The more you tighten your grip the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

 

[Ironwolves]

As a long time member of several Independent groups I have no horse in your race and am simply an armchair conspiracy theorist.

I would like to point out that FD may have forseen BGS alterations to Lave when they locked out Lave 2. I think the Workers of Lave are contractually overseeing Lave 2 aren't they? In which case I would suggest they are hiding something. Something potentially troubling involving Dr Waldren.

This would suggest massacring them is entirely legitimate and to be encouraged. Personally I suspect there is a whiff of the Monozygote about them.

Ye things is though that before this war the station on Lave 2 was owned by the Radio station. So if anyone knows what's going on there it's the people from the Radion

As always with the Alliance, might makes right.

The more you tighten your grip the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

mate you debate like a ... well you prob know because you are one.
Cherry picking what to reply to You want to bring up someones emails aswell? Or talk about the leadership Lave had before the Alliance was there?

If you can debate, think and repond as an adult or be someone that can argue and see both points of the conflict, you might be a person of note and worth talking to.
Right now, this is not tha case. And untill that time, you will get replies from me that are on your self established level.
Congrats

Now stop making excuses for manslaughter you space dictator... Wanting a company to own the free people of Lave...
and systems slipping through our fingers? Ye... you might wanna look at how all the superpowers have been doing since game release and how many systems have joined the Alliance compared to the other factions
Good luck keeping your systems from turning green

 

[Perseus]

It's almost as if the point of the Alliance is for a faction to have allies against other factions that threaten it, regardless of their shirt colour.

I know murder is common in the Empire when it comes to governance changing hands, but up here it is not considered a legitimate way to establish self determination.

Regardless of the outcome, you would be here slandering the Alliance anyway. If the Liberals lost the argument would be that the Alliance is incapable of defending their members instead.

Just the ramblings of the Imperial establishment crumbling and attempting to paint rigid forms of unity and cooperation as worse than them to hide their own shortcomings.

Oh dear . . .
So, you're saying that diplomacy with Lave Radio, agreement and help on establishing them as control party, all with Alliance blessing and aid (and subsequent galnet/lore propaganda value), would only be a sign of weakness to the galaxy at large and not an actual demonstration of Alliance values?
That the best choice was an overwhelming show of your military capabilities and resources, even though murder isn't done much up at your end (Haha! This even made my slaves laugh).
I detect Federal values creeping into your rationale, Apos. Maybe the Alliance has been spending too much time there as of late?
You mention crumbling and you're right to do so. I just think you're looking in the wrong direction.
Compliments on your victory in Lave and good luck finding peace with your true nature.
o7