Modes The Open v Solo v Groups thread IV - Hotel California

[Crank Larson]

The thing is they are not complaining that their "paper planes", as you put it, are catching fire. They are rightfully complaining that those that are catching them on fire are doing so without any real consequences at all. As others have pointed out... the burden is completely on the ones being attacked, they have massive cost... the aggressor doesn't even get a slap on the wrist.

The agressor does get a bounty. And in 2.4 this is increased a fair bit.

There is no "burden" on the person that is attacked, the same rules of the game apply to everyone. If you haven't kitted out your ship to give you a chance to escape, the fault is your own. And even if you have, you won't always be able to escape. That's one of the risks of flying in Open. But it can also be a risk with NPCs - it's just that players seem to take it more personally when a hollow square does this to them.

Every time I die, I try to work out what I could have done differently to prevent it so that I am more prepared in the future. I don't blame the person that was more prepared than me or had a more powerful ship. Even if there was no reason for the attack (which has happened to me several times).

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

The agressor does get a bounty. And in 2.4 this is increased a fair bit.

It is still a joke. What is it 10% of the re-buy cost of the destroyed ship? The only slightly annoying aspect is being wanted in all non-anarchy systems.

… But it can also be a risk with NPCs - it's just that players seem to take it more personally when a hollow square does this to them.
…

Just like some players seem to enjoy it more to attack hollow squares instead of NPCs. It is personal, for the attacker and the attacked.

(Oh and please don't use "human opponents are unpredictable and more difficult than NPCs" as a excuse to attack players in weak ships - you know that it's wrong and I know it.)

 

[Jack Schitt]

Ah, fair enough. It's just rule enforcement that didn't make it in. All it really means, though, it that it has to be done manually (which already happens in Mobius - if someone breaks the rules, report them to Mobius with evidence, and they won't be there anymore).

A very poor substitute, IMO. Not to denigrate Mobius and his team who do an amazing job administering what I'm sure he thought would be a temporary stop-gap solution, but rather FD's failure to include the simple controls for group admins that they spoke of. Relying on volunteers to do what the game itself was supposed to do, and leaving it this way for two and a half years, is very poor form.

I have said before that if I was Liam I would have had more than enough by now. I would wait until one of the regular peaks of the "if you don't like PVP go to Mobius" cycle, especially if a Frontier employee had posted in one of those threads, then just pull the plug on the whole thing and watch the forums and Reddit explode.

Fortunately he is more dedicated to the cause than I would be, and for that I guess we should all be grateful. Well, most of us.

 

[Mouse]

The agressor does get a bounty. And in 2.4 this is increased a fair bit.

There is no "burden" on the person that is attacked, the same rules of the game apply to everyone. If you haven't kitted out your ship to give you a chance to escape, the fault is your own. And even if you have, you won't always be able to escape. That's one of the risks of flying in Open. But it can also be a risk with NPCs - it's just that players seem to take it more personally when a hollow square does this to them.

Every time I die, I try to work out what I could have done differently to prevent it so that I am more prepared in the future. I don't blame the person that was more prepared than me or had a more powerful ship. Even if there was no reason for the attack (which has happened to me several times).

Fully kitted out T-6 is in a system and heading to it's dock... 4 wing of engineered ships, says a Asp, two vulture's and an Anaconda. Now I admit it has been a while since I have been in a wing, but I remember not being near my wingmate and when he got out of supercruise I exited supercruise at his location. Asp interdicts the T-9, his wing is pulled to him and the Anaconda keeps the T-6 from being able to quickly jump out due to mass... all 4 ships tear through the T-6's shields and hull and blow them to hell in seconds.. they laugh and leave... no demand for cargo, nothing but blowing up a hollow square because it was a hollow square... T-6 has a huge burden on them... and you think the new system will put a real C & P on those who do this to make them think through this action? Plus this isn't just open, many of these griefing types of PVPers who are not looking for pvp but for domination do all they can to sneak into groups like Mobius LOOKING for those who do not PVP. If the only way to play a game it to be so over engineered as to no longer make the game fun for you because you have to abide by someone else's game style then there is a fundamental flaw here. You keep wanting to blame the victim for those who are not wanting to play the game but to ruin other's experiences with it.

 

[Crank Larson]

Just like some players seem to enjoy it more to attack hollow squares instead of NPCs. It is personal, for the attacker and the attacked.

(Oh and please don't use "human opponents are unpredictable and more difficult than NPCs" as a excuse to attack players in weak ships - you know that it's wrong and I know it.)

I'm not going to excuse anything. I've never said it was nice. It is, though, however you feel about it, valid gameplay.

 

[Crank Larson]

A very poor substitute, IMO. Not to denigrate Mobius and his team who do an amazing job administering what I'm sure he thought would be a temporary stop-gap solution, but rather FD's failure to include the simple controls for group admins that they spoke of. Relying on volunteers to do what the game itself was supposed to do, and leaving it this way for two and a half years, is very poor form.

There are many things that are still missing from the game - many that are higher priority than making changes to private groups that won't actually change much. The rules don't get broken very often, so implementing the rules wouldn't save on much administration at all.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Hmmmm. From what I've seen and viewed on video, and read on the forums, an equal fight, in open, tends to be a battle of engineering and skill attrition, as the pilots get tired from 20 minutes of maneuvering.

Not much fun. Might as well play Star Fleet Battles.

 

[Crank Larson]

You keep wanting to blame the victim for those who are not wanting to play the game but to ruin other's experiences with it.

Blame? Victim? This is a game. People seem to lose sight of that fact. You already have options to avoid these players if you don't like them. Use those options. Mobius is generally very safe - it is very rare that people do get into the group and break the group's rules, and on the occasions it has happened it has been dealt with quickly.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

"Brains only gets you so far, and luck always runs out"- Harvey Keitel, Thelma And Louise.

The battle, between heavily armed, and engineered ships, goes to the one who does not make a mistake. How often do you make mistakes? Video (of yourself) for an entire lifetime free of mistakes, please.

I'm in solo because I'm old, arthritic, and I don't want to put up with all the baggage open has.

Besides, the Mistress never runs out of minions. And, some of you are beginning to admit that they are better than before. (Sidney The Sidewinder has a lucrative counseling gig for NPC's, so I have an inside track)

At some point, open will have emptied out of new players, who are excited to see rebuy screens.

And that, is what the players in open fear.

Now, what company makes Depends (tm)?

 

[Jockey79]

Why should risk be balanced?

I'll let you answer that.....

.... This is a game. People seem to lose sight of that fact....

See, if games are not balanced and if EVERYONE doesn't get a fair chance at winning the game (so to speak) - then people don't play. Simple.

4x PvP combat ships, pulling over a single T9 and killing it for giggles - without any sort of penalty, isn't fun gameplay for the T9.
And being able to suci-sidewinder out of the existing "punishment" is the final insult to the victim of being ganked.

The new so called C&P system that has been described so far is as useless and lame as the speed restrictions FD put in to "stop ram killing at stations"... which didn't stop ram killing at stations.

This whole game was supposed to be self-balancing.
But Frontier have not put the tools or game mechanics in place for that to happen, so Gankers rule Open as much or as little as they like.
And no one else gets a look in or even a fair chance of revenge, as the gankers after their kill jump modes to prevent revenge strikes.

Personally I feel that if you commit crimes in a mode, you should be locked to that mode until such time the player has paid for their crimes.

 

[Mouse]

Blame? Victim? This is a game. People seem to lose sight of that fact. You already have options to avoid these players if you don't like them. Use those options. Mobius is generally very safe - it is very rare that people do get into the group and break the group's rules, and on the occasions it has happened it has been dealt with quickly.

Yes it is a game, one that people invest a lot of time and energy in... only to have it ripped apart by some dipstick for lulz... and yes I say you are blaming the victim because you seem to forget that people want to play with other people and not have that crap happen so for some solo isn't really appeasing because they are alone. PG's work but are struggling because so many people want into some like Mobius that he's having to create more groups to handle the over 40,000 commanders (I think) that have joined. Even those in Open that expect some PVP... there is a difference in PVP vs what some of these "saltgrinders". They don't go after pilots who may be able to put up a good fight.. they go after newbies or traders/explorers... anyone they think they can trap and destroy without them having a chance to defend themselves or even escape.

 

[Gunnet]

A very poor substitute, IMO. Not to denigrate Mobius and his team who do an amazing job administering what I'm sure he thought would be a temporary stop-gap solution, but rather FD's failure to include the simple controls for group admins that they spoke of. Relying on volunteers to do what the game itself was supposed to do, and leaving it this way for two and a half years, is very poor form.

I have said before that if I was Liam I would have had more than enough by now. I would wait until one of the regular peaks of the "if you don't like PVP go to Mobius" cycle, especially if a Frontier employee had posted in one of those threads, then just pull the plug on the whole thing and watch the forums and Reddit explode.

Fortunately he is more dedicated to the cause than I would be, and for that I guess we should all be grateful. Well, most of us.

I've wondered about that myself. It could be classified as a bit tinfoil, but my working theory is that he might not actually be able to pull the plug on Mobius.

Frontier surely know that Mobius disappearing would potentially be a game killer at this point. They could have easily made a sneaky check to throw a fake error if owners of certain groups attempted to delete them. It would at least buy them some time to figure out how to handle things.

It would also be a good safety measure in case some unsavoury individual managed to gain access to a critical account for that purpose.

 

[Kruger]

I find it interesting actually at what people here on the forum think of all these modes. There's a Facebook group I'm a member of and everyone in it seems to despise both Solo and Private Groups; and talk bad about Mobius. The general consensus in the group is that if you play in anything other than Open that somehow makes you a coward or less of a man or whatever. I've not engaged in any of those conversations because I think it's kind of stupid to promote this "Open Only" mentality especially to all the new players (Been a large influx of PS4 players) that join the group. Perhaps, because it's Facebook, there doing it as a show of how "manly" they are because it's a real name attached to those posts and they don't want to be labeled a coward or what have you. I also don't participate in said conversations because I personally don't like Open. I've had too many close encounters with other Commanders looking to blow me up just because I'm not an NPC. Not only that, but when I deploy, the internet in, say, Turkey is too terrible to even play in a PG (I remember having a discussion about that further back in this thread); and I'll be back to playing in Solo come October.

This Facebook group is also terrible when asking for advice on ship builds, or just advice in general. The last couple of times I asked I got nothing even remotely helpful, just pointless comments or nothing at all.

All in all, I'd stick to the forums. The general community here is much more friendly and helpful. And I've had some good conversations with a few members on various topics.

------

I've noticed some people mentioning that it's the Victim's fault for not utilizing the tools their given or whatever for not escaping and getting blown to pieces. It's also possible that I misunderstood. But regardless, what good does knowing how to escape or whatever do you against heavily engineered ships that can pop you in mere seconds? I'm sure there are builds out there that can tear through my 8A Cutter Shield in no time flat. What's the point of buying higher tier modules if they don't really add to your survivability in Open unless you actually torture yourself to farm for the proper materials as well as try and unlock all the other Engineers?

Remember when it required skill to win a fight rather than who got the best rolls and more free time to farm materials?

NPCs also show up with Engineer mods now, too, though no where near the extremes that players have. But I guess it's to make up for the NPC's cheating habits despite Frontier's best efforts to say they don't. So regardless what mode you play in there will always be risk, it's just Open seems to be filled with the most. I'm hoping the new Crime & Punishment will balance it out, but if Frontier's recent gameplay additions are anything to go by, this is going to be a very lackluster system.

I've rambled on and also feel that I sparked some ire from a few members because of my ability to misunderstand and overthink...

 

[thirstyfish]

I find it interesting actually at what people here on the forum think of all these modes. There's a Facebook group I'm a member of and everyone in it seems to despise both Solo and Private Groups; and talk bad about Mobius. The general consensus in the group is that if you play in anything other than Open that somehow makes you a coward or less of a man or whatever. I've not engaged in any of those conversations because I think it's kind of stupid to promote this "Open Only" mentality especially to all the new players (Been a large influx of PS4 players) that join the group. Perhaps, because it's Facebook, there doing it as a show of how "manly" they are because it's a real name attached to those posts and they don't want to be labeled a coward or what have you. I also don't participate in said conversations because I personally don't like Open. I've had too many close encounters with other Commanders looking to blow me up just because I'm not an NPC. Not only that, but when I deploy, the internet in, say, Turkey is too terrible to even play in a PG (I remember having a discussion about that further back in this thread); and I'll be back to playing in Solo come October.

This Facebook group is also terrible when asking for advice on ship builds, or just advice in general. The last couple of times I asked I got nothing even remotely helpful, just pointless comments or nothing at all.

All in all, I'd stick to the forums. The general community here is much more friendly and helpful. And I've had some good conversations with a few members on various topics.

------

I've noticed some people mentioning that it's the Victim's fault for not utilizing the tools their given or whatever for not escaping and getting blown to pieces. It's also possible that I misunderstood. But regardless, what good does knowing how to escape or whatever do you against heavily engineered ships that can pop you in mere seconds? I'm sure there are builds out there that can tear through my 8A Cutter Shield in no time flat. What's the point of buying higher tier modules if they don't really add to your survivability in Open unless you actually torture yourself to farm for the proper materials as well as try and unlock all the other Engineers?

Remember when it required skill to win a fight rather than who got the best rolls and more free time to farm materials?

NPCs also show up with Engineer mods now, too, though no where near the extremes that players have. But I guess it's to make up for the NPC's cheating habits despite Frontier's best efforts to say they don't. So regardless what mode you play in there will always be risk, it's just Open seems to be filled with the most. I'm hoping the new Crime & Punishment will balance it out, but if Frontier's recent gameplay additions are anything to go by, this is going to be a very lackluster system.

I've rambled on and also feel that I sparked some ire from a few members because of my ability to misunderstand and overthink...

No misunderstanding on your part. There is a lot of victim-blaming in these forums. You get used to it, and just put the worst offenders on your forum ignore list.

 

[Mouse]

I find it interesting actually at what people here on the forum think of all these modes. There's a Facebook group I'm a member of and everyone in it seems to despise both Solo and Private Groups; and talk bad about Mobius. The general consensus in the group is that if you play in anything other than Open that somehow makes you a coward or less of a man or whatever. I've not engaged in any of those conversations because I think it's kind of stupid to promote this "Open Only" mentality especially to all the new players (Been a large influx of PS4 players) that join the group. Perhaps, because it's Facebook, there doing it as a show of how "manly" they are because it's a real name attached to those posts and they don't want to be labeled a coward or what have you. I also don't participate in said conversations because I personally don't like Open. I've had too many close encounters with other Commanders looking to blow me up just because I'm not an NPC. Not only that, but when I deploy, the internet in, say, Turkey is too terrible to even play in a PG (I remember having a discussion about that further back in this thread); and I'll be back to playing in Solo come October.

This Facebook group is also terrible when asking for advice on ship builds, or just advice in general. The last couple of times I asked I got nothing even remotely helpful, just pointless comments or nothing at all.

All in all, I'd stick to the forums. The general community here is much more friendly and helpful. And I've had some good conversations with a few members on various topics.

------

I've noticed some people mentioning that it's the Victim's fault for not utilizing the tools their given or whatever for not escaping and getting blown to pieces. It's also possible that I misunderstood. But regardless, what good does knowing how to escape or whatever do you against heavily engineered ships that can pop you in mere seconds? I'm sure there are builds out there that can tear through my 8A Cutter Shield in no time flat. What's the point of buying higher tier modules if they don't really add to your survivability in Open unless you actually torture yourself to farm for the proper materials as well as try and unlock all the other Engineers?

Remember when it required skill to win a fight rather than who got the best rolls and more free time to farm materials?

NPCs also show up with Engineer mods now, too, though no where near the extremes that players have. But I guess it's to make up for the NPC's cheating habits despite Frontier's best efforts to say they don't. So regardless what mode you play in there will always be risk, it's just Open seems to be filled with the most. I'm hoping the new Crime & Punishment will balance it out, but if Frontier's recent gameplay additions are anything to go by, this is going to be a very lackluster system.

I've rambled on and also feel that I sparked some ire from a few members because of my ability to misunderstand and overthink...

Welcome back Kruger and hope you are done with deploying for a while. And you didn't misunderstand a thing.

 

[Kruger]

Welcome back Kruger and hope you are done with deploying for a while. And you didn't misunderstand a thing.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I got back from my deployment last October and am slated to return this October. I realize I've not been very active on the forums, but I lurk from time to time. I'll try to be more active though; I do enjoy talking with everyone.

 

[Jack Schitt]

There are many things that are still missing from the game - many that are higher priority than making changes to private groups that won't actually change much. The rules don't get broken very often, so implementing the rules wouldn't save on much administration at all.

Possibly, but that's a tangential argument for another day when I have more energy for whataboutery. You didn't know what the missing "modes" were, and now you do. They remain missing, along with many other things.

Frontier surely know that Mobius disappearing would potentially be a game killer at this point. They could have easily made a sneaky check to throw a fake error if owners of certain groups attempted to delete them. It would at least buy them some time to figure out how to handle things.

Part of me actually hopes that's true, because it would imply that FD are capable of foresight and preemptive design rather than the reactive responses we're more familiar with.

It would also be a good safety measure in case some unsavoury individual managed to gain access to a critical account for that purpose.

I'd be very surprised if that wasn't one of the reasons for the introduction of CAPTCHA for Frontier Store logins, which are shared with the game client. FD apparently saw a surge in the number of unauthorised login attempts on the Store. And while any individual player could be a target for this, accessing Mobius' account would be like the Holy Grail for some people.

I also seem to recall an experiment, possibly done in an earlier beta, in which the group was removed and reinstated to see what would happen. But I can find no evidence of that with a very cursory search so I might be talking out of my tailpipe.

Remember when it required skill to win a fight rather than who got the best rolls and more free time to farm materials?

I wonder if this isn't why FD reacted so strongly (well, strongly by FD standards) to the extensive use of the Engineers exploit. Had Engineers been a way of making subtle customisations to ships, as was originally envisioned, this exploit might not have had the impact it did. But the only way for apex PVPers to get the level playing field back is to max out certain modifications by rolling, rolling, rolling until pilot skill again becomes the deciding factor.

It must have felt like a double kicking for FD: a key feature had irrevocably changed an already questionable balance, and the most effective way to restore it turned out to be an exploitable bug in the same feature. Ouch.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Why should risk be balanced? ?

my word... .I cant believe you just asked that.... you are asking why shouldnt 1 set of players be allowed to play as murder hobos with zero consequence just attacking any and every player they see fit..... Do you think this is remotely good design?. Good for the murder hobo perhaps.... good for the odd player who enjoys being a mouse in the game of cat and mouse, but not good for the rest of the player base. You are essentially suggesting its ok having a 2 tier system, the invincible and the pawns.

And as for mobius you have already been told that 3 the shards of mobius means that it is not unified like it was meant to be in kickstarter, not to mention some are struggling to even get in..... so to keep on suggesting mobius is fine is willful ignorance imo.

you mention that in real life things are not balanced... but in real life, people who act like murder hobos may get away with it for so long, but the consequences ARE there when they are caught..... 6k bounty for murder.... its a joke.
once serial killers are identified they dont get to swan around like nothing happened in well policed areas, they are forced into hiding on the fringes..... which is how the game was meant to work.

I dont have all the answers.. as i have said, a PvE mode would have issues of its own, in an ideal world an unlimited population open PvE mode with no special rules built into the game would be just fine, no work needed from FD, just a tick box the 1st time you log in.... However a subset of players have shown they will use any and all exploits to act berks..... hence why some people feel the need to champion FF off and ghost ships (bleugh!)

The notion that it is only a minority who do not want to play in open (possibly not your words but is something many state) we cant know as FD do not publish numbers. All we do know is mobius in NOT promoted on the game login and so presumably many are unaware of its existance..... We know there are so many that it had to be split to 3 shards and that is still not enough..... and I know personally looking at the amount of time i would be on and mobius would just be logged into the menus that it must take a truck ton of his time doing the "paperwork" of organising a mode which FD sold us. A single point of faulure which is a fan of the game is not a good idea when 10s of 1000s of people are relying on it.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I have a question.

How many threads will have to be made before this is addressed?

I mean just because we cant make the change now. It does not mean The Powers That Be cant talk about it. Its not like it will spoil anything coming from the aliens. These threads just keep going and going with no resolve.

This is certainly going to be a give and take subject.

But you all have to remember we are all on the same side. It needs to be beneficial for both. Rewarding someone for their efforts is important. You already have the choice to play the game out of OPEN play and still experience the whole game with the same reward. So you already know that. Then when you play in Open for that extra RISK. Shouldn't the trader be rewarded for their efforts?

Shouldn't a bad guy be rewarded for stopping a trader at a CG? We should be able to pick sides. Kind of like we did with the Multi crew session for Solome. Then you get points for blowing up CMDRS and you get points for Delivering Cargo(Which should pay more imo because of the initial investment from credits per trip.) Then the opposing side will rack up bounties and cause other pvp ships from the other side to hang out and defend the traders.

Bam meaningful PVP at a CG. Which is where everyone hangs out anyways since powerplay is dead.

You could even lock it up where people have to be forced to swap sides every week. Who says the Feds dont get deliveries?

Anyways, just one of many spitballed ideas. But allow people have to context. "OMG HE BLEW ME UP FOR NO REASON". Give them the reasons. And then they will understand. And this OPEN SOLO AND PRIVATE Nonsense will be over once and for all.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Anyways, just one of many spitballed ideas. But allow people have to context. "OMG HE BLEW ME UP FOR NO REASON". Give them the reasons. And then they will understand. And this OPEN SOLO AND PRIVATE Nonsense will be over once and for all.

no it wont because ultimately you are fundamentally missunderstanding there are lots of different reasons for the plays wanting different groups etc

mine comes down to this....... For me ED is not a "PvP" game.... there are not players and npcs.... there are pilots federation members and non members.

all players are members of the pilots federation, and the pilots federation, lore wise, does NOT condone its own members blowing each other up without a damn good and legal reason (because they pay the insurance for one). lore wise you can be ejected from the pilots federation for misbehaving

having "points" for blowing up players therefore makes no sense at all to me, it just does not fit in the lore of the game because it would essentially get someone kicked out of the PF all together..

Now i am not saying there should not be optional missions to attack PF members, and to defend from PF members for those who really want it (with players from both sides knowing what they are getting into for signing up)... but i just would not take them on because it breaks how i play the game, and i would like to be able to filter them so as never too see them (again because they break the lore imo).****

if this was warthunder, WOT or a BF arena shooter sure, but to me the entire notion of PvP is at odds with how ED is set up.

but not everyone plays the game like i do so they do not care about the lore........ I am not saying your ideas are bad, just that even with them in, it wont stop many just not wanting to do the whole PvP thing.....

in all honesty i think ED would have been better not having open at all, and just concentrating on lots of solo play content, which scaled ok for friends who want to play together in small groups, kind of like borderlands. But ED is not my game and i am biased... My views very much reflect how elite 4 was 1st proposed many years before elite dangerous which iirc was a single player game (that again iirc you could invite mates into for co-op) with a multiplayer competitive companion game, which was essentially i imagine like CQC.


So long as FD try to cater for such wildly different play styles this will always be a spicy discussion.

**** 1 exception to this where it could work... imo warzones.

in warzones imo we are doing military operations. The military trumps the pilots federation. imo in a warzone where we are flying a military factions colours so it should not be a PF matter. we should be supplied with a ship - which gets better as we build up rep and trust in that military - and if we lose the ship we do not have to pay insurance, but we lose rep with the military and depending on how many ships we lose vs how many we blow up, they may give us worse ships or better ships.

but the important thing here is. The only ships in warzones should be ships flying military colours... ie NOT our own ships, we are not committing crimes as its a war, and we are not forcing the PF to pay out insurance.