Modes The Open v Solo v Groups thread IV - Hotel California

[Kruger]

You're right. But you purposefully missed the point. Look at what could be happening right now. Fighting over territory *GASP* . Just like POWERPLAY was supposed to be.

But instead they are helping each other out which is cool. But it wont last forever

Why are you using this as a point exactly? This isn't PvP but rather players cooperating by influencing the BGS which is still PvE.

Powerplay doesn't do anything for minor/player factions.

NPC's we own. Bases we own and worked for.

You can spin it any way you want. I really dont care.

Hes attacking a player faction. Colonia has its own bubble full of powers. Just like powerplay. We all had to work to get there. And we could all fight over territory and push and pull people out of groups. THATS CALLED PVP. Bottom line. Just because I attack NPCS in the game and still make an impact on other players. Thats what the BGS is about. And its Called PVP.

Attacking NPCs which impact other players is PvE as NPCs are part of the Environment. And again, Player factions are factions CREATED by a player but composed of NPCs; just like every other faction. Sure you can influence them in any way, just like other factions. Again, PvP is direct player interaction, which doesn't affect the BGS as players are not physically pledged to factions. You can say you support one, but the game doesn't register you as being a part of said faction.

Also, no one owns NPC or Stations. Just because one popped up that's part of a faction you support does not mean you own it. NPCs and stations will still attack you even if you support said faction.

 

[thirstyfish]

NPC's we own. Bases we own and worked for.

You can spin it any way you want. I really dont care.

Hes attacking a player faction. Colonia has its own bubble full of powers. Just like powerplay. We all had to work to get there. And we could all fight over territory and push and pull people out of groups. THATS CALLED PVP. Bottom line. Just because I attack NPCS in the game and still make an impact on other players. Thats what the BGS is about. And its Called PVP.

No one "owns NPCs." You don't control them. The BGS does, and all anyone can do is give the BGS tiny nudges. And you still don't understand what powerplay is, or how powerplay actually works. Repeating yourself doesn't make you right. And there are no such thing as "player owned bases" in this game. Outposts, stations, and surface installations are controlled by minor factions, and minor factions are populated EXCLUSIVELY by NPCs. Note my word choice, it is deliberate. When a controlling faction changes, so does control of stations and the like.

The BGS is about so much more than just impacting other players. NPCs contribute to it too, so the BGS can influence NPC behavior, which then influences the BGS.

I am not spinning anything, you are. You are the one spinning the definitions of PvP and BGS to suit yourself, I am not.

Seriously, do your homework about how this game actually works. Lots of stuff to read on the forums alone, I suggest the guides section. The popular guide to powerplay would be a good start for you. Because the minorfactions and the powerplay factions are 100% separate from each other. I have seen systems with federation allied controlling minor factions be exploited or even controlled by empire powerplay powers. Apples and oranges.

 

[Kruger]

No one "owns NPCs." You don't control them. The BGS does, and all anyone can do is give the BGS tiny nudges. And you still don't understand what powerplay is, or how powerplay actually works. Repeating yourself doesn't make you right.

The BGS is about so much more than just impacting other players. NPCs contribute to it too, so the BGS can influence NPC behavior, which then influences the BGS.

I am not spinning anything, you are. You are the one spinning the definitions of PvP and BGS to suit yourself, I am not.

Seriously, do your homework about how this game actually works. Lots of stuff to read on the forums alone, I suggest the guides section. The popular guide to powerplay would be a good start for you. Because the minorfactions and the powerplay factions are 100% separate from each other. I have seen systems with federation allied controlling minor factions be exploited or even controlled by empire powerplay powers. Apples and oranges.

That reminds me, perhaps this will help as well.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/193064-A-Guide-to-Minor-Factions-and-the-Background-Sim

 

[jasonbarron]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/375456-Hotel-California=closed!

Told yah!

 

[sovapid]

Why are you using this as a point exactly? This isn't PvP but rather players cooperating by influencing the BGS which is still PvE.

I've been told that BGS war type stuff is not PVE, but indirect PVP. As you are still fighting against other players.

 

[Captain Willard]

Npc's have no impact on the bgs unless they are killed.

 

[Asp Explorer]

BGS PVP is perhaps the purest and most equal form of the art.

It doesn't matter how good the BGS PVP player is, only on their actions. As all modes of play in Elite are completely equal as far as BGS interaction goes - those players who take part in BGS PVP have greater influence than pew-pews, and every single PVP-Pro-Bro advocating pew-pew as what PVP is in Elite, has a stark choice between abandoning BGS work (and thus "losing" in-game action) or continuing to pursue pew-pew (and thus "accelerated losing" in-game action), or realise they need to git-gud and going full-on for BGS work and thus losing out on the pew-pew.

It's a wonderfully designed mechanism, and it's completely delicious

Of course, some PVP players treat the whole thing in a completely different manner, and space pixels are the absolute least of their concerns

 

[thirstyfish]

Npc's have no impact on the bgs unless they are killed.

And NPCs kill each other all the time. So....

 

[thirstyfish]

I've been told that BGS war type stuff is not PVE, but indirect PVP. As you are still fighting against other players.

Calling it pvp of any type isn't a terribly accurate way to state it. As it is a hybrid thing. I don't know exactly what to call it, as it is entirely PvE content, but using it for certain side effects. I usually call it BGS manipulation, best terminology I have found.

Calling it PvP has certain connotations that don't quite hold true. There could be situations where someone is working against a so-called "player faction" without necessarily knowing that it is a player faction. I don't know even a tenth of the "player factions" in ED. I could easily prop up one of their rivals in a system, or work against them, and not know. Does that make it PvP? I don't think so, as there is no intent present.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Id rather not throw specific support members under the bus to be attacked. But there was talk about reducing influence rates on solo and private modes and how that could be an option.

You could remove the support CMDR's name from the image of the Support response (and any other identifying information) - it would not be the first time that a Support response has been misconstrued.

They could still have an influence and play the game. But are rewarded for their risks. Everyone knows its a lot more riskier to play in Open than it is in Solo or Private. If it wasnt. The first comment in every thread about someone getting blown up wouldnt be, "hey join mobius" "No risk of getting blown up there!", Thats usually not what they say its usually paired with name calling.

The average risk difference between Open and Solo is miniscule - in terms of average player density in the galaxy. That's not to say that the spot risk is not higher - it depends whether one is instanced with another CMDR and also whether that other CMDR decides to attack.

No one has to play in open to enjoy this game. You can get the same rewards in private and solo.

Indeed. By design.

And you never have to risk being killed.

Nonsense. NPCs do not pose zero risk.

Why would anyone in their right mind play in open, if all its going to be is a hassle when you can accomplish everything else in this game without stepping foot in it. And you'll never have to worry about them MEAN OL GRIEFERS!

Someone seeking to interact with players who may be hostile to them would seem to want to play in Open. For the rest there's Solo and Private Groups.

However, they added things into the game like the grom missile, Reverb cascade torpedoes and more.

Indeed they did - and weapons, in and of themselves, are PvP-agnostic - they don't care whether the target is a CMDR or NPC.

And now the Crime and Punishment system. If they didnt want this interaction they would have simply turned it off.

The Crime and Punishment system, karma system and Pilots' Federation Bounties, etc. would seem to be aimed at encouraging players (through less discouragement) that don't play in Open much (if at all) to play there again.

And they wouldnt be putting time into PVP mechanics.

Which PvP mechanics are Frontier putting time into?

They balance the game around PVP mechanics. This is not Diablo3 where you can clear an instance in 5 seconds because you dont need to balance around PVE.

Do they?

We can see that with NPCs. They are nothing but a fly on the wall.

For some players. For others they provide a decent (or even significant challenge).

The learning curve for open is much harder than the learning curve is solo and private.

For the tiny proportion of Open where one will encounter hostile players, possibly - but that's the nature of PvP. It seems that most players don't get involved in PvP.

And the real PVERS that look to login shoot some space ships or go exploring dont care about the BGS and how it effects others. They could honestly care less.

What does "real" mean in that context?

But the people that knowingly attack others behind the safety wall take advantage of it. And they know they cant be touched or stopped. And people win wars based of time/exploits and no risk. All reward. NPCS arent a risk.

Players in Open on a different platform cannot be stopped either.

 

[Hempstead]

Calling it PvP has certain connotations that don't quite hold true. There could be situations where someone is working against a so-called "player faction" without necessarily knowing that it is a player faction. I don't know even a tenth of the "player factions" in ED. I could easily prop up one of their rivals in a system, or work against them, and not know. Does that make it PvP? I don't think so, as there is no intent present.

Why do you care?

The root of all evil in the Hotel California is the hollow square. Imagine there is no hollow square, so you can't tell whether it's an NPC or a commander. Now, every action other commanders do is just a part of the dynamic BGS, because I can't know it's a player or NPC action. vP or vE? Doesn't matter to me one bit, they are all BGS to me, just one part is algorithmically predictable, the other is unpredictable.

PowePlay? Just some local dumb hicks fighting each other. No disrespect to cmdrs playing PP. If you treat other cmdrs you don't see as some "better programmed NPCs," then those "NPCs" are just some dumb hicks from a Pilot Federation Elite pilot's POV.

I make a point not to know if it's a player faction. If they are silly enough to stoop themselve down to the level of NPCs, then I shall endeavor to treat them like NPCs -- treat them absolutely no difference from NPCs. Moreover, it's called plausible deniability.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

NPC's we own. Bases we own and worked for.

You can spin it any way you want. I really dont care.

Hes attacking a player faction. Colonia has its own bubble full of powers. Just like powerplay. We all had to work to get there. And we could all fight over territory and push and pull people out of groups. THATS CALLED PVP. Bottom line. Just because I attack NPCS in the game and still make an impact on other players. Thats what the BGS is about. And its Called PVP.

you really do not seem to get how ED is meant to work. the PvP which matters in ED is competetive PvE. this is by design. direct PvP is an OPTION for those who want it to be there, but ED is NOT a game about direct PvP unless all parties specifically want it...... players plaiying the BGS in solo is working as intended and more importantly as advertised from day one. if you did not know this due to buying in ignorance, that is on you.... do not try to break the game for those who DID know this.

i get that this is a rubbish design for a competetive direct PVP game that is directly made for PLAYER conflict, but not all games have to work the same way, and ED is different to, for instance star citizen perhaps (tho who the frak really knows what SC will be.. i bought in to that when there was a PvP slider there too which has now been canned )

Id rather not throw specific support members under the bus to be attacked. But there was talk about reducing influence rates on solo and private modes and how that could be an option.
.

in general you are (again) mistaken.
Sandy was shooting the breeze with his "hand grenade" where he suggested powerplay may have slightly more influence in open. the logic here was it would balance out, and not really affect players directly. individually players would still get their own personal progression exactly the same in any mode, but that yes there may be a bonus to influence in open..... for all parties.

but the reqards to players would be the same AND the important bit ......... ONLY for Power Play.. so your "player faction" which in actuality is a player named npc faction (players do not make the faction rules, you cant decide who can dock at your faction HQ etc) - dont get me wrong its still cool and gives the impression of ownership etc even if it is an illusion. but the point is, even with sandys (sandros? i always forget which name he prefers) hand grenade it was confirmed it was not for general BGS stuff and ONLY PP

 

[CMDR Greg Wayne]

you really do not seem to get how ED is meant to work. the PvP which matters in ED is competetive PvE. this is by design. direct PvP is an OPTION for those who want it to be there, but ED is NOT a game about direct PvP unless all parties specifically want it...... players plaiying the BGS in solo is working as intended and more importantly as advertised from day one. if you did not know this due to buying in ignorance, that is on you.... do not try to break the game for those who DID know this.

i get that this is a rubbish design for a competetive direct PVP game that is directly made for PLAYER conflict, but not all games have to work the same way, and ED is different to, for instance star citizen perhaps (tho who the frak really knows what SC will be.. i bought in to that when there was a PvP slider there too which has now been canned )

You are going to have to back up that claim with some actual sources. To me it sounds like YOUR view on the topic and views and opinions are all subjective, as most already knows.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You are going to have to back up that claim with some actual sources. To me it sounds like YOUR view on the topic and views and opinions are all subjective, as most already knows.

really..... you are in this thread and you have not read jockey's wall of text? that should be required reading before posting here.

the very 1st post in this thread has a chat with sandro about how solo is unfair in CGs with a timeline etc and you can see he sees peoples points and considers it, but ultimately no changes are made.

(i will be honest however i thought it was PP not CGs so i will concede some ground there, he did consider changing the balance of CG participation for competing CGs (but not the REWARDS)

but still this is not the BGS influence.)

perhaps this helps... multiplayer is optional. tho he does not talk about the BGS specifically just the multiplayer being optional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JYRyhxYhI&t=58s

i think this is from the FAQ... its from the 1st post of this thread

-----------------------

Elite Dangerous is an online game that allows players to play in three potential 'modes':

Online ALL group (called open play) where the player is in the same universe as all other players and can see and be seen by all others in open play
Online PRIVATE GROUP play where the player is online in the same universe as all other players but will only ever see and be seen by others in the same private group
Online SOLO play where the player is in the same universe as all other players, but will see no humans (essentially a private group of one).


All players have an effect on the background simulation regardless of mode they play in or which platform they play on, and can switch between groups at will without penalty or change to their character's statistics.

---------------------
interview with DB at E3

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015...-e3-xbox-exclusives-and-qa-with-david-braben/


Producer Ben Dowie reiterated that Xbox One and PC players won’t be playing head-to-head—although they’ll be playing in the same simulated universe, they’ll never encounter each other in space, likely because Microsoft’s Xbox patch cycle adds complexity to Frontier’s game update procedure.
I pointed out that there’s frequent contention online about the “right” way to play, be it casual or hard-core, and Braben agreed. “But there shouldn’t be a ‘right’ way,” he said. “You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play. And people have come up with lots of suggestions, some of them very constructive and sensible, and we do listen, and people hopefully have seen that we’ve changed things and adjusted things, but not in a way—we hope!—to upset people. We’re doing it to make the game better!”
There are no changes planned to separate solo and online saves, and players will continue to inhabit the same shared galaxy whether they’re in solo or multiplayer—again, continuing with Braben’s contention that there’s no ‘right’ way to play.


early live stream interview with DB and Chris roberts at the same time (was cool seeing both guys together sharing the same passion, the same ultimate goals but with different methods of getting to them.
---------------------
We have a way of distinguishing them within the game. They’re actually part of this group of pilots that you’re part of and it will call out, above them say. Essentially what it means is “this is a real player,” but in the game fabric: “so this is a group who a member of the same organization as you.” We…you know, in other words we, we don’t want this game to be all about player vs. player kills, but the point is it encourages a lot of cooperation. And, it will be possible to do player vs. player kills if that’s what people want to do. "

 

[Robert Maynard]

You are going to have to back up that claim with some actual sources. To me it sounds like YOUR view on the topic and views and opinions are all subjective, as most already knows.

With regard to PvP being optional, the following is from the forum FAQ at the time of the Kickstarter:

FAQ- Elite: Dangerous
​

How will single player work? Will I need to connect to a server to play?

The galaxy for Elite: Dangerous is a shared universe maintained by a central server. All of the meta data for the galaxy is shared between players. This includes the galaxy itself as well as transient information like economies. The aim here is that a player's actions will influence the development of the galaxy, without necessarily having to play multiplayer.


The other important aspect for us is that we can seed the galaxy with events, often these events will be triggered by player actions. With a living breathing galaxy players can discover new and interesting things long after they have started playing.


Update! The above is the intended single player experience. However it will be possible to have a single player game without connecting to the galaxy server. You won't get the features of the evolving galaxy (although we will investigate minimising those differences) and you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate).



​

How does multiplayer work?

You simply play the game, and depending on your configuration (your choice) some of the other ships you meet as you travel around are real players as opposed to computer-controlled ships. It may be a friend you have agreed to rendezvous with here, or it may be another real player you have encountered by chance. All players will be part of a “Pilot’s Federation” – that is how they are distinguished from non-players – so you will be able to tell who is a player and who is a non-player easily.

You will be able to save your position in certain key places (probably just in space stations, but possibly while in hyperspace too, if we feel it is needed). A save-and-quit option will be freely available at those points, as will the subsequent reload, but there will be a game cost for a reload following player death. Your ship will still be intact in the condition it was when the save occurred, but there will be a game currency charge (referred to as an insurance policy) for this. This is to prevent the obvious exploit of friends cooperating and killing each other to get each other’s cargo. If you can’t pay, then it will accumulate as an in-game debt, and the police may chase you!

There are no multiplayer lobbies, and the game will be played across many servers, augmented by peer-to-peer traffic for fast responses. Session creation and destruction happens during the long-range hyperspace countdown and hyperspace effect (which is a few seconds only), so is transparent to the player.

We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will, though it will be possible to be banned from groups due to antisocial behaviour, and you will only meet others in that group.
​

Other relevant Dev quotes:

For fun

That said, it could be worth thinking about reducing the impact that solo & group players have on the political simulation.

Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.

Will at any time solo and private group play be separated into a different universe/database from open play? It's kind of cheap that you can be safe from many things in solo, like player blockades and so on, and still affect the same universe.

No.

Michael

According to some members of the community, Solo players should have a limited or no effect on Powerplay - or, alternatively, playing in Open should offer Powerplay bonuses. Is this something you are considering?
No. For us Solo, Groups and Open are all valid and equal ways to play the game.

Is there planned to be any defense against the possibility that player created minor factions could be destroyed with no possible recourse through Private Groups or Solo play?

From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.
Michael

Hello Commander Ozram!

I think you are perhaps conflating two separate issues: the amount of challenge present in each game mode, and player versus player interactions. I think these are so fundamentally different that comparisons might not be particularly useful.

The challenge of playing in solo being too low (without taking sides) is a valid argument to make, although it might better be phrased as "the opportunities for challenge are too low in Elite Dangerous". It's actually something we are interested in looking at.

However, cranking up difficulty will not make Open more enticing. Conflict between actual people, even within a game, is a very different matter to taking on NPC ships. It has many psychological and social elements that would otherwise not be present. Incidentally, increasing the difficulty of NPC engagements would also make Open harder rather than fairer, so there's also that.

Perhaps the bottom line is the different modes are there to enable Commanders to play how they want to. We don't want everyone to play in Open because we want some sort of Armageddon PvP scenario. We just think that playing with other people, both cooperatively *and* adversarial, can be more fun, which is why we advocate Open play.

So in the context of a karma system, people playing in Private Group or Solo mode are not relevant. Why should folk in Open be interested in what goes on there? This is about making player versus player interactions more equitable *in Open*, getting more folk in there, surely?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yeah hes attacked our player faction. hes harmed our player faction with no risk and all reward. Hes hurt a group of people. not just one guy. Lots of them.

But you can counter that by working for your player faction or go hurt his (if he has one).

I don't care for this whole semantics discussion. Call it indirect PvP or PvE. Both are ok. But don't complain because someone is working the BGS against you. Its no different to someone crying that they have been attacked by another player in PvP. If you care about your minor faction you work for your minor faction and stop those who work against you.

If you are losing a BGS conflict, then its because:

a) Outnumbered (either in terms of players or time committed). Losing a BGS war against twice the number of opponents is no shame and no different to losing a PvP fight against twice the number of opponents.

and/or

b) Being outplayed by people with superior knowledge of how the BGS works. This is no different to a PvP battle where someone with superior combat skills beats you. Its all about knowing how to play.

So, either you need to git gud at the BGS and/or have more people on your side.

Being able to directly shoot opponents ain't going to help you if either of the above are true, and if neither of the above are true, then you don't need to shoot them, you'll just be less efficient if you try and do that, and start failing under point b (because you're not working the BGS effectively trying to shoot other players).

I'll give you an example where PvP might even seem like a good choice and work for the BGS.

You're in a war situation with another group.

You're in a CZ. So an opposing CMDR.

What do you do?

The PvPer in you will scream "Kill the player".

Wrong!

Let's assume the other player isn't completely useless. They have a decently kitted ship and reasonable skill. Even if you win, that's going to take a few minutes, and possibly take you away from the main battle. Effect of killing that one CMDR on the BGS, same as killing any other ship.

Right course of action:

Kill an Eagle, takes a few seconds. You've now outperformed the equivalent PvP action.

Congratulations, you are now learning how to git gud at working the BGS

EDIT: Ok, you're going to say how it will require them to to respawn and return. Good thinking! If they have any brains though, now they know you are in that CZ, they will go to a different one. At worst, you have cost them a rebuy, and with credits being so easy to make, its not likely to deter anyone.

 

[Jockey79]

You are going to have to back up that claim with some actual sources. To me it sounds like YOUR view on the topic and views and opinions are all subjective, as most already knows.

Hi, I'm Jockey.

I'm the keeper of "The Wall of Information" - all sources, quotes and evidence you require are there and have been for 2 years. also the video showing the P2P network configuration is also in it, showing how ED works.

I quoted it 3 pages back, but there is a handy link in my signature the wall also has the post counts for the other 3 SOG threads.

Enjoy the read.

 

[Theodrid]

Yeah hes attacked our player faction. hes harmed our player faction with no risk and all reward. Hes hurt a group of people. not just one guy. Lots of them.

Now, let's play a little game, imagine the above that I've quoted from you was from some PVE players in regards to being destroyed by a PVP wing for the lulz, many PVP forumites would respond as so:-

- Lol, feeling harmed by pretend space pixels is dumb
- You need to 'git gud'
- You need to learn to defend yourself
- If you can't handle it get out of open and stop whining.

Now apply that to your scenario......

- You probably shouldn't feel violated regarding the BGS
- You, (and your group), need to learn and 'git gud' at BGS manipulation.
- First lesson pew pew alone is NEVER going to win a BGS skirmish.
- If it's all too much leave BGS stuff to the guys and gals that can and find something else to do.

 

[Robert Maynard]

NPC's we own. Bases we own and worked for.

We don't "own" anything in regard to a Faction - we may cause a Faction to be inserted into the game - we may craft it's lore and backstory - we may run missions for them, trade for them, become allied with them, cause them to expand, retreat, oppose them, whatever - that's it - just as it is with NPC factions. We support Factions, whether player or NPC, we do not control them.

Hes attacking a player faction. Colonia has its own bubble full of powers. Just like powerplay. We all had to work to get there. And we could all fight over territory and push and pull people out of groups. THATS CALLED PVP. Bottom line. Just because I attack NPCS in the game and still make an impact on other players. Thats what the BGS is about. And its Called PVP.

The BGS, Factions and PowerPlay were all implemented to be experienced and affected by any player that chose to. Not just those in Open. Whether affecting the BGS is PvP (or not) is moot - it's the BGS that we all experience and affect (even if our actions have unintended consequences). All three game platforms (and all modes, of course) share the single shared galaxy state - that's a fundamental aspect of the game design.

When a player Faction got promoted to a Power it became a Power, just like the other 10 - anyone can pledge to it or fight against it, from any mode they choose.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

From this thread I have learned that ... I am Ziggy Stardust, I am an explorer, exploring purely in a Private Group, and hardly ever interacting with other players and I am a PvPer. To be a PvPer I need to be able to influence the environment where other players reside in. Technically I'd call that PvEvPer. Whether it's PMFs or me tagging planets that other CMDRs can't tag anymore.

But you could make that case for every player in the game. A trader influences the BGS, taking on missions does. About anything anyone does. Using that reasoning, close to all players who lift a finger are PvPers. Making the term perfectly useless.

Or, you could use the term how it was intended to be used, and the ambiguity goes out the window.