the negative community narrative and the confirmation bias effect.

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Very true. Rep++

I'm a software developer. Most of the time, our customers propose "solutions" which are unworkable or they have overlooked a far simpler solution to the issue they are trying to "fix".

Personally, I blame YouTube.

So with respect to the comparison of ED with SC I have only this observation. I purchased ED quite some time ago on Steam and only tried to play twice giving up after not being able to find any guidance. I also bought into the SC crowd funding project in 2013 and found it much more engaging. Fast forward to today looking back I see two completely different approaches to kick-starting a space sim. FD took the minimalist approach and got a working product out to their fan base. CIG took the "lets trade ships for pledges" approach which lead to exorbitant amounts of cash flow and ultimately to unrestrained feature creep.

When I look at CIG and FDev I see two completely different cultures and group dynamics which, in my opinion worked for the better for me. While I remain a steadfast supporter of CIG and SC I have burned myself out with the nonstop pandering for more money and total content drought. FDev and their approach has given me a functioning (albeit minimally) product to distract myself from the frustration associated with the SC project.
 
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I also believe the majority of complaints and negativity are caused by promises made from the Kickstarter which were not implemented, then FD's decision to throw in an additional DLC release model that contained some features that were promised originally. Perhaps people felt as if they had been "duped" because their initial investment into the game wasn't honored.

Then they might suffer from reading problems, because during KS FD didn't promise much - that future of ED video explicitly stated majority of so called desired things will come after release of first game, and then they even reducantly offered LTSP. How anyone could get such impression that DLCs will be free is beyond me (or maybe they wanted to compared it to non-existant game SC). It is mostly due of people creating their own fake narrative in which they are entitled to certain features despite devs clearly saying they won't come on launch.

Lol, I think you understand it better than you're saying out loud.

Think of something that should be able to be done in an hour of gameplay.

Insert nonsense and irrationality into the process so that it ends up taking a day.

Bingo.

Elite Dangerous.

Saves them having to actually create things as an invested approach, so they can hop off and make money on Theme Parks and Dinosaurs.

Everything can be boiled down to one second button press if you desire so.

That's why goal oriented people don't get Elite. Because it has no goal.
 
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Add new gameplay beyond (pun intended) original Elite pitch?

You mean the gameplay that was developed to a dramatically lower standard than what the playerbase expected based on the first year of Elite development and released late, incomplete and full of bugs?

Let's look - airless planetary bodies, check

Yes, they did a good job of this when 2.0 launched, unfortunately they also had to dramatically nerf the planetary textures to port the game to consoles and they still haven't addressed this.

SRV gameplay, check

Yes, this was a good aspect of Horizons when 2.0 launched, although they've made some very bad decisions since then to "force" SRV gameplay (requiring SRV driving to collect certain mats and trying to prevent base targeting and skimmer destruction from ships). We also haven't seen any new SRV variants and it's been nearly two years since Horizons launched, what happened to those plans? We also can't use the SRV with multicrew, which was a major disappointment for explorers and makes it impossible to carry out certain missions during multicrew.

passengers (my favorite), check

You mean re-skinned cargo delivery missions? They're not everyone's favourite, but sure, glad you enjoy them. I don't actually run passenger missions but I do like the Dolphin, it's a fun little ship to fly even if it looks like a space bus. I don't actually use it or my Orca to deliver passengers however because I can't actually find Luxury passenger missions in significant quantity that don't involve going to Colonia or SagA. Passenger missions are currently done most efficiently in an Anaconda which is quite disappointing for players who were hoping to find a useful role for the luxury passenger ships.

Thargoids, looking good, check

"Looking good"? Seriously? The Return has been one of the most heavily criticized expansions in Horizons, we have boring cookie-cutter CGs, unnecessary buff-nerf cycles for anti-thargoid weapons, and players are forced into "group" content if you want to fight Thargoids. Plus there is no meaningful narrative beyond "Humans agree Thargoids bad, need moar pew pew".

Engineers, not my cup of tea, but I guess there are only few scenarios how to implement crafting, check

I actually enjoyed Engineers, but then again, I have a relatively high tolerance for grind if I can get significant gameplay benefits and I saw the overall grind being worthwhile for the improvements to my ships. I am even OK with the RNG aspect which I just see as a different form of grind. I should point out however that Engineering is probably the most polarizing expansion in Horizons and was not what many players were expecting. The excessive buff/nerf cycles was also a major problem, especially when players put considerable effort into benefits that were later reduced dramatically.

So yes, it achieved what it intended.

Not really, you forgot the problems with multicrew, which is entirely combat focused, has no SRV use, imbalanced pip bonuses and rebuy discounts combined with poor multicrew bonuses for lower-ranked players which overall discourages its use by players. Not to mention that players managed to find a way to troll using multicrew which now means it's basically unused other than possibly as an idle pip bonus from a second afk account.

You also forgot the problems with SLFs since we have the higher-ranked pilots locked behind a significant grind-wall (approximately 12 hours to get a pilot to Dangerous rank from Harmless) with no way to save the pilot upon ship destruction, plus they take a significant cut of your profits even when idle. I have two Dangerous-ranked SLF pilots each eating 8% of my profits, I've paid each of them over 300 million so far but it's not really worthwhile to dismiss one of them at this point because I don't want to spend another 12 hours replacing one of them the next time I want to use the SLFs.

Not every element clicked with players and that's why FD decided to concentrate on base game before release any other new DLC and retire season model and most likely will sell next paid for DLC for face value.

Whether they can actually put in the necessary time and resources to improve the base game during 2018 with Beyond is still quite questionable. They hyped The Return for months and haven't actually done anything significant with the Thargoids yet, unless you consider the limited Thargoid "raid" content with frequent buff/nerf cycles as a "significant" contribution to the gameplay or storyline.
 
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(or maybe they wanted to compared it to non-existant game SC).

For someone who praises Elite's technical side and the "behind the curtain" technology to the death even when at the expense of gameplay and practicality, you surely spend a whole lot of time denigrating a game that tries to achieve what some of us only dreamed of and tries to be technologically revolutionary in every way possible.

I didn't back SC during kickstarter, I don't own it and heck, I can't even run it most likely. It's just an observation ;)
 
As stated by Dearing .... Star Citizen has done far more with their money so far than Elite has and they have dealt with some very high-level technical challenges.

Seriously? We may get dinged here as this is NOT a thread about SC. But still, a game that is still mostly concept art and still in Alpha after five years and you hold it above ED? I agree that ED has a ways to go with their thoughts and some promises, but right now, at this moment, you have a full game to play.

Scanning your posts I don't notice very many positive posts. May I ask, were you a Kickstarter backer? I wasn't. But I did research ED a bit before buying into it. And though I have high hopes for the game (ED) I am not disappointed. But you, I suspect by your posts, are. A sad affaire but the game is what it is.

Chief
 
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Seriously? We may get dinged here as this is NOT a thread about SC. But still, a game that is still mostly concept art and still in Alpha after five years and you hold it above ED?

Yes, seriously. It's not just "concept art" at this point. They have been developing ship and ground fps modes and unifying it with space legs from the very start. That is why it's taken so long. I've been following SC development very closely for the past 1.5 years and the types of technical challenges they're solving are issues that other games don't even touch because they can get away with quick fixes or shortcuts instead. A good example here are the shortcuts used in most first-person shooters to distort the first-person and third-person perspectives rather than properly show an accurate head and hand position that properly reflects the in-game character models. Roberts is a bit of a perfectionist and doesn't want to release a feature until it does exactly what he wants it to. In this case he insisted on unifying the first and third-person perspectives in CryEngine so that everyone would see the same environment at all times regardless of perspective. No one has even tried to do that in an fps before because it takes too much effort and in most games the benefits are minimal. To do this properly however basically required re-writing the CryEngine fps engine to unify the first-person and third-person perspectives properly. Now that they've accomplished this it's at the point where you can actually read the HUD display reflecting off of the helmets. It isn't a gimmick or stand-in texture or a distorted perspective, you are literally seeing the information projecting onto the HUD of the other player that they are seeing on their own HUD display.

Here's an example:
9SvxEGT.jpg


This might seem like a trivial issue but it really isn't trivial at all from a technical perspective. It requires custom-building your own game engine to do that properly. It was an investment that was worth making given the need for the game to seamlessly integrate fps and ship cockpit perspectives at all times but it took a tremendous amount of time and effort to achieve. The issue here is that Roberts knew from the start that he didn't want to use any loading screens with any of the gameplay transitions. When a player is walking around or when they enter a vehicle or ship or when they take off and leave a planet or jump to FTL he wanted it to be a continuous uninterrupted gameplay experience. The core aspect of the gameplay was that everything would be experienced continuously from a first-person perspective regardless of what the character was doing. In order for it to all be seamless it was important to unify the perspective regardless of who was looking at an object and that's why it was necessary to design the game in this way from the start.

I agree that ED has a ways to go with their thoughts and some promises, but right now, at this moment, you have a full game to play.

Some would argue that it's far from "full". The best we can really say about it is more in the category of "minimum viable product".
 
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You just can't have fun in this game... I thought, I'll give it a chance once again, and come back from a 5k ly trip to unlock Palin. Took me several hours jumping, so I thought why not unlock Zacariah Nemo using the exploration data to ally with Party of Yoru.

Everything smooth so far, sold the data, but no mission given to progress... A dozen or so reloads and finaly got the mission.
Then it ask for 25 units of Xihe companions! a rare good, so I go to Xihe and get that... I think you can get only 10 at the time, I waited more than an hour waiting for more of the commodities to spawn.
Dumped some into space, came back and low and behold, it only got enough to top up to 10 again!

This game is infuriating. :mad:
Don't tell me that I am gonna have to do 3 trips with this crap...
 
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Are they using a useful definition of "viable"?

I think it has something to do with getting the game to work just well enough that players will still spend money on it but making sure that you use the least possible amount of resources to develop it. So no, not a particularly useful definition of "viable", unless of course you're one of FD's shareholders, in which case it's a great definition.
 
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I think it has something to do with getting the game to work just well enough that players will still spend money on it but making sure that you use the least possible amount of resources to develop it. So no, not a particularly useful definition of "viable", unless of course you're one of FD's shareholders, in which case it's a great definition.

I see we have met before....

;-)
 
Then they might suffer from reading problems, because during KS FD didn't promise much - that future of ED video explicitly stated majority of so called desired things will come after release of first game...

That's why goal oriented people don't get Elite. Because it has no goal.
Agreed. Rep++

I'd say it differently, though: Elite has no goals, except for those you set for yourself.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to pick goals that only end in frustration: I need an Anaconda to have fun; without realizing that it's a hollow goal. If you can't have fun in, say, a Cobra, it's unlikely you'll have fun in a 'conda.
 
Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to pick goals that only end in frustration

Totally agree.

Unfortunately, these chosen goals, SHOULD theoretically end in having loads of fun.

But they don't.

Just spent three weeks grinding rank with the Empire from -78% Rep and no rank, in order to get a Cutter. Was it worth it?

Was it Father Jack. The Corvette can wait until the grindlocks are fixed.

Spent a day getting allied with a station to run passenger missions and did that for a week in a Beluga, instead of hauling in the Cutter.

Just spent the better part of a month, "Engineering" ships FSD's and Dirty Drives. Now the Courier is great fun at Low Altitudes, but little good for anything else. Cobra boosts to 560, great fun, but still use the Python to fight in. Anaconda now has great jump range, so might continue engineering it at some point and disappear into the black, get Explorer Elite.

My advice to newbies. Get yourself into a Python and stay there. Engineer just that one ship.

Engineers - an exercise that should take hours that takes weeks. Great idea, so badly implemented with design decisions surrounding getting the materials and data, which leave you wondering if anyone at Frontier is still working on anything other than theme parks and dinosaurs. Or still awake, if they were left behind after everyone else was sequestered.

I mean, seriously. Non-Transferable Mats and Data, magic cargo holds and hard drives. A "full and working economy" that apparently doesn't know Carbon exists. Just beggars belief. The method through which Pharmaceutical Isolators magically become available just makes me think I'm being trolled by the design team. I guess that's what it's really like having power...

And for those saying "there's an off button"...

You're right, and that's what I'm going to do now. Just bought Project Cars. A game that has developers pulling overnights to get stuff fixed up front.

Going to play that for a bit, I'll poke my head around the door to see if there are any ships worth having from time to time, there are still a bucket load missing from the game that should be in it already.

Also to check if Frontier have grown a conscience and started feeling guilty about the current state of things. Maybe even have started turning "Minimum Viable Product" into "Enjoyable Space Sim"

I gave it six weeks full on, but it ain't there yet. Luckily I have a Life Time Pass, and forty years left to live. If I'm lucky, it'll be enough.

Have fun Commanders!

Or try to.

Feel free to try and not "confirm" that sentiment while I'm gone.
 
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Nope, I give up... To unlock Palin I need 25 thargoid sensors. No way I'll be flying around hoping to find them randomly (unless they are found somewhere else now).

I don't know who thought this was a good idea, at times like this I scratch my head thinking how is it possible this was approved at designing stage and nobody objected how time wasting activities like this one is, literally worse than some free to play games.

Thankfully From other Suns was released not long ago and I have a lot of fun playing it, so I'll see ya in 6 months, maybe they'll fix some stuff by then.
 
Agreed. Rep++

I'd say it differently, though: Elite has no goals, except for those you set for yourself.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to pick goals that only end in frustration: I need an Anaconda to have fun; without realizing that it's a hollow goal. If you can't have fun in, say, a Cobra, it's unlikely you'll have fun in a 'conda.

The problem here, though, is the game essentially tells you, that you need a large ship to increase the amount of fun. People don't all race for an Anaconda because they need it. It's because the developers decided that a lot of content happens to be effective via large ship acquisition and use.

It's really not possible to claim everyone going for anaconda is absolving themselves of fun. It's because the game is entirely dedicated in driving people in that direction. And because, well, the Anaconda is pretty much the best at just about every pursuit possible. The old barge just is the gift that keeps on giving.

The "you don't need it" argument only works, if the game actually reflects that. It doesn't. Anaconda is the go to ship, because frontier refused to correct it at the same time they happily trashed the python, and have then purposefully go on to ram that mistake home, by repeatedly adding compromised ships, leaving the elephant smoking a phat blunt in the middle of the lounge grinning ear-to-ear and getting mighty hungry in the process. It's the perfect target for the first big ship. It's the do-everything ride.

You can have fun in a Cobra. Or eagle. But the game rewards having fun in larger ships. Because that's what frontier want. The developer has invented a credit and time sink game, larger ships equates to more credit sink (look at the larger modules and huge credit costs; it screams credit-sink, same with ship transport; massive credit sink.. the list goes on and on..). This is then thrown against the wall by commanders who see credits as the devil and if you have a large ship you are a bad persontm. So we have a developer that has invented the notion of up-daring to large ships, so that there's a bigger time and credit sink for the player base; and a portion of the community hell bent on not having that happen.

The game has many goals; the problem is that when people try to shoot for them, they are told this is wrong because we're all supposed to "have fun". To say the community has schizophrenic tendencies, is not the least bit inaccurate. It's less about end goals, it's more that the end goals ostensibly mean endless repetition. In a large ship? Larger repetition. And it's the latter that tends to have a fairly universal impact.

Everyone will have, almost certainly, different goals in game; what is universal though, is the degree in which repetition will feature. And it features just a whole lot. There's a lot the developer has done to make the game really darn enjoyable. But there is just a whole lot going on funnelling commanders into larger ships. And confusing signals from the developer (and commanders) that says you don't need large ships to have fun, yet the game is specifically programmed to make a mockery of that stance.

And when you do get funnelled into that, there's the sudden realisation that the costs are obscene to do this, yet there's more fun to be had, so the endless credit sink machine kicks into higher gear. More credits, more ship, more modules. None of this is accidental, friend. Any more than the randomness of engineering. It's a rather snazzy, yet entirely obvious time/ credit/ materials sink game.

At some point, someone has to accept this is actually the situation, so it can, maybe, finally, be balanced a bit. So gunning it at warp factor 12 to anaconda, just isn't the entire purpose for a very large percentage of players (it would be naive at this juncture to not think Frontier have very clearly decided to keep Anaconda as it is, as a motivational force; I'm sure they'd claim none of that, of course!). Otherwise, it'll keep happening.

--

Lots of cool points and counterpoints raised by folks. And all rather civil. Cheers, commanders! Is a nice change. o7
 
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Nope, I give up... To unlock Palin I need 25 thargoid sensors. No way I'll be flying around hoping to find them randomly (unless they are found somewhere else now).

You can get the Palin 25 units of stuff in a neighbouring system to Maia. I forget the name of it, but find the crash site and just mode hop until you have 25 of them. One of two planets in close orbit to each other. Almost defies the laws of physics actually. You'll see it when you find them.

And they aren't Thargoid Sensors, you need to find them and shoot them until you get the fragments of the sensors. They aren't called what they should be called, it's very confusing and just downright lazy design.
 
Great, thanks for a tip. Not a single thing can be achieved without some kind of cheating in this game. I just played for a couple of hours after I shelved the game for 6 months and it was enough to make me rage quit again.
I think I'll wait for the beyond fixes before playing it again.
 
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