the negative community narrative and the confirmation bias effect.

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They are under no obligation to tell us who is working on what.

I get that people would like more communication from FDev - heck, I would - but that doesn't mean we get to act like we're on their board of directors.

I believe that is an unfair translation of what I've been saying.

In an attempt to be fully transparent in outlining my personal opinion...

I've given well over the odds in money for a computer game for Elite Dangerous. Nowhere near as much as some, more than others. However I consider £200 to be very expensive, when compared to the £30 I paid for Gran Tourismo 5, a game I got 2000 hours of play from before GT6 was released. Unfortunately for them, I no longer have a playstation, so I went over to Grid and Project Cars on Steam, another £40 quids worth, all in all representing another 1000 hours of game time totally around the last 6-7 years of driving games.

But ED is not a "pay for a game" scenario like those examples. I paid £200 up front, on the promise of the scope of a game which has yet to materialise.

So I'm looking for Return on Engagement, I'm looking for reassurances that the money I invested has been used (or is being used), not to return to me a financial profit, but to offer me the value that I was sold on and was assigned a fiscal value at the point of me making that purchase.

You're right, the Board of Directors, the Stakeholders and ultimately the Shareholders have, and will continue to profit financially from me having made that decision along with many others. I'm not arguing with that, I know how organisations work.

What I am absolutely entitled to (in the actual meaning of the word, not some half baked desultory label used to undermine what I truly believe is an actual point), is the game that was outlined to me in return for my money.

Kickstarters backers, LEP holders and those that continue to pay for additional content through the Frontier Store are not just some light headed fame chasers who want to be a part of the next incarnation of Elite. Most consider themselves to have a vested interest in how this game turns out. In fact I'd go one further, it's not beyond the realms of considered opinion that whilst it is only right for FD to retain full control of developing Elite Dangerous, they are doing so on behalf of those customers that have committed to the process of a long term development plan.

FD are not your average, run of the mill software development house, such as EA or Sega, that year after year arguably mug customers off on the law of diminishing returns for game such as Fifa and Football Manager. For those games, you pay your money every year with no say over what "improvements" are made. Although I'm sure fans of FM17 will try to for FM19. lol

FD, whilst owners of the IP for "Elite" are also "custodians" of Elite Dangerous. Elite is an institution, it is "our" game for them to develop. You may or may not disagree with that, but FD certainly agreed with it back in 2012/13. The business decision to go through the Kickstarter process both capitalised and exploited that emotional investiture, which is undeniable.

The disappointment that this premise seems to have been conveniently forgotten. Moreover, that the premise is being so badly "managed" by the developers (often to be dismissed as unimportant), is what is getting people bought into that process riled up. And let's not forget or devalue the bold fact, that premise was shaped, marketed and sold by FD, in order to get this ball rolling in the first place.

For that "management" is taking place based on hope that is no longer justifiable. The line "no promises, no timescale" is no longer acceptable.

Let's put it another way. Take that institutionalised love of Elite away, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that all those players that refuse to drop the game, given the Grind, and play Elite....just because it's Elite and they've been waiting to play it for yonks...will disappear. In fact, looking at the return and peak usage figures, they've kind of started to, which probably explains more about the current "drive" than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, if FD had been pro-active the last three years, regular iterations at least on a quarterly basis (however small), which were perceived to have efficacy and value to the game, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation.

We haven't even be offered those basics. A remit you would expect from any software house with regards to what they claim is their flagship game. We've had features that no one wanted, we've had arbitrary changes to mechanics to keep the game functional because no one could be bothered to think about it or do it properly.

Furthermore, with the current "push" on community engagement, there is no one voice saying "whoops, yes, we've been remiss, we'll make our best endeavours to put it right". The best we've had is an admittance of getting it wrong, and then all the qualifiers allowed within parameterised language as to alleviating corporate responsibility, by those essentially responsible for getting it wrong thus far, as to when and if they intend putting it right. It's not really a recipe for confidence is it.

So yeah, whilst they may not be obliged to tell us who's been working on what. An explaination as to why they haven't been working on what I've been paying them to work on, would go a long way for me.

Moreover, more information on why I should still care about what's coming would be grand.

If Sandro's interview on Lave Radio on Tuesday is anything to go by, they still don't have a clue what that looks like and are going through the token process of redeveloping certain aspects of the game one by one, starting with Crime and Punishment. If the isolated thinking approach is going to be applied to Engineers, to Powerplay, to the economy, to ship balance....come back to this post when it lands and read it again.

What you'll find is vindication that features like Engineers, PvP mechanics and the wider Living Economy should have been redeveloped holistically from the ground up, altogether as a well understood programme of work which engaged the community and differentiated systemically between Solo and Open. The latter in my humble opinion, being the crux of all the trouble.

Rather than just seemingly continue to make it up as they go along.

If they are doing anything further than that, it would be a cool thing for everybody to pass that information on about now.

If I thought they deserved it, I might buy some more stuff to help out.

All that said, if at the start of 2019 we have an iteration of Elite Dangerous that isn't full of bugs and mindboggling design decisions, then I'll pick it up financially again.
 
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Its not "our game for them to develop." I just can't wrap my head around this logic.

If that were the case, then I would expect it to function like a credit union, where we are paid a percentage of the profits on some regular basis.

I think this line of reasoning is what is preventing some from just enjoying the game as they are able or so inclined to do, and move on when they see fit.

I really question the value of this whole concept of continous development for games sometimes, but throwing kickstarter funding into the equation just seems like a great way to create confusion with players as to who is the owner and developer, and who is the customer.
 
I really question the value of this whole concept of continous development for games sometimes, but throwing kickstarter funding into the equation just seems like a great way to create confusion with players as to who is the owner and developer, and who is the customer.

I agree with you on that one. For me, the days of me putting in to a Kickstarter or any tangible commitment based on promises, for anything other than the expectation of a fiscal return are over.

Otherwise, it seems all too easy to forget you have customers altogether.

Interesting times, eh.
 
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the forum negativity is directly related to trying to market and develop a game to too many incompatible demographics. It's only partially due to putting out buggy releases, slow development and lacking certain features.

Embrace a niche and be the best you can be at it, sure it alienates some potential players out of the gate but your actual players are happy. This forum is what happens when you try and be everything to everyone and end up mediocre at best to all of your players. Nobody is happy.
 
I agree with you on that one. For me, the days of me putting in to a Kickstarter or any intangible commitment based on promises, for anything other than the expectation of a fiscal return are over.

Otherwise, it seems all too easy to forget you have customers altogether.

Interesting times, eh.

It'll be interesting to see who "gets it right." On one hand, its nice to know that the game that was purchase will always be the same game and always provide the same experience (save big fixes). On the other hand, these games that attempt to create a large dynamic environment where things happen in "real time", can't really exist in a model where the game is created, released, and maintained.

I don't have any real problems with it yet, though I have noticed that some games that I've played and enjoyed, aren't the same games at all today, and that people who played the same titles later in their progression were playing completely different games with different experiences than what I had. I can understand that I could become frustrated if this level of change occurred in a game that I am actively playing, as what seems to have happpend with some in ED.

At what point does incorporating player feedback in changes/updates cross over to making changes that fundementally make it a different game? How to find that balance between improvements and preserving core gameplay/identity?
 
At what point does incorporating player feedback in changes/updates cross over to making changes that fundementally make it a different game? How to find that balance between improvements and preserving core gameplay/identity?


I hear you, and I think what you outlined in your full reply certainly does have something to do with it. The game has changed, weirdly. And I mean that.

However I think a bigger factor, along the lines of what you inquire about is focused on delivery of expectations. For example, some of the language of the Chief Game Designer on the radio on Tuesday bordered on an attitude of "look at us, still supporting development and still going three years later". Which is great under anyones definition of normal.

The point of the logic is that there is a meaningful section of the user base, although appreciating Elite is still here three years later, always expected it to be. Married to the feeling that the Design Team, rather than claiming long term victories...haven't actually got going yet. There is no reason after all, that it shouldn't be here in another three years, or more.

It's a stark difference in perception of the state of the game, and one that does not engender trust...or confidence.

Something which certainly creates risk for an organisation that claims to be customer facing.

I'm sure that is a sentiment, Senior Stakeholders would be interested in.

As far as real time content is concerned, I think you can forget it for now. A few really good comments as to why have already been made. For my part, it became increasingly clear over the last few years that the design team have been clueless as to the nuances between Open and Solo, and everything in between. As recently as the beginning of last week, I thought they'd finally figured that out, which would lead to the capabilites needed to actually insert that content to which you refer.

During this week, things have been said that have highlighted otherwise.

Hope I'm proven wrong completely.

Without a rational framework into which you can insert this stuff, it's always going to be limited, under capitalised and as a result, under utilised.
 
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They are under no obligation to tell us who is working on what.

I get that people would like more communication from FDev - heck, I would - but that doesn't mean we get to act like we're on their board of directors.

Oh man you are unbeliveable... Do you even read yourself? You are trying to defend this lack of content and communication just by tellin everyone they have no obligation to tell us anything? Are you serious? LOL... LOL. Yeah they are under no obligation to do anything, they don't have to communicate, they don't have to listen to the community, they don't have to do anything. And that's why we have threads like this... becuse a lot of people feel they don't do anything.
Then we don't have to play and belive that anything significant is being developed. It's a lose-lose scenario as they don't have to do anything for us but then we don't have to wait for years to see or hear what's going on with the game. We can just move on and play something else like most of the people already. So the community is trying to draw their own conclusions based on what they know: ED is dying becasue it's not earning enough $, without $ there are no new features and content, without new content and no news the people are rightfully starting to complain (current state). It's extremly obious that another projects have the priority, because since the horizons the speed of ED development slowed down considerably.
 
They are under no obligation to tell us who is working on what.

I get that people would like more communication from FDev - heck, I would - but that doesn't mean we get to act like we're on their board of directors.

Obviously you don't understand the fundamental foundations of capitalism.
 
They are under no obligation to tell us who is working on what.

I get that people would like more communication from FDev - heck, I would - but that doesn't mean we get to act like we're on their board of directors.

I bought this game, I gave them money. I'm the customer, we are the customer.
 
Uhm...its true. They are under no obligation to provide any of us anything, and again, this perception that anyone has a right to or is due anything from FDev is seriously out of touch with reality and is behind a lot of the negativity.

I bought the game, and am a customer; this is true.

FDEV could shut everything down tomorrow, take the entire galaxy offline, and would owe me absolutely nothing.

Not bothered by that a bit, but I suspect that others here will argue this. I'll give a pre-emptive response by asking the question: Can anyone point to the contract where I am garunteed some number of hours of server time or development support from my date of purchase, or anything that says that the game can't be shut down the month after I bought it?
 
Some of you guys who are arguing against your right to information regarding development of a game that you've paid for/are continuing to finance via micro-transactions are losing your minds. I agree that I have no right to "demand" information and I have never suggested otherwise! On the other hand, as a paying customer I certainly feel like I can expect good communication. For the record I'm glad that you are satisfied with the lack of progress and communication and all signs pointing towards a further stagnation of development; being happy and content is a good thing:)
 
Who cares? more and more people are leaving a negative review.
What do you think will happen if they'll fail on their promises again (which they failed again and again again)...

Are you big enough to sustain the developement right now?
 
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FDEV could shut everything down tomorrow, take the entire galaxy offline, and would owe me absolutely nothing.

Let's not go there fella. It's bordering on ultimatum territory which is truly negative and not in the slightest bit constructive for the engagement process.
 
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Who cares? more and more people are leaving a negative review.
What do you think will happen if they'll fail on their promises again (which they failed again and again again)...

Are you big enough to sustain the developement right now?

Are you big enough to change the development right now?
 
Maybe let's try to see that from different perspectives.

Dev's:
The bigger the User & Code Base the more difficult the acceptance tests.
(It lies in the nature of acceptance testing)

QA's:
We say if a test succeeded until they cut off the money for our department.

Users:
will be annoyed by new bugs and regressions or missing fish, um sorry, wishlist features.

There is no such thing like a perfect solution. (Don't applies to PR department :D )
Let's not loose humor in a non perfect world ;)

And let's hope i don't get a bug report tomorrow, ehm actually today, to say that correct.
(And no. I work the OpenSource way. So no User can take the "i gave you money" baseball hat.
Kinda chilling *lol*)

*Look! What a beauty. Earth! Damn now i rammed the Station*
 
To get things clear, we aren't FDev bosses so there's nothing we can do about it, but if they mess up too bad there won't be any money flowing so they are recommended to hear our requests/needs. It's like a capitalized democracy I think.
 
[citation needed]

Did somebody say citation?

Frontier Developments 2016 Annual Report: http://ar2016.frontier.co.uk/, p. 23:

"Following a full year of Planet Coaster development, the increased amount of development effort related to future self-published releases resulted in 51% of all development man months contributing to releases outside the period (2015: 30%)."

"Self-published revenue was substantially derived from product sales within the Elite Dangerous franchise and related digital in-game purchases, with the Alpha proportion of pre-orders for Planet Coaster and Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 sales on the iOS platform also contributing."

FD is telling shareholders in their annual report that their revenue during this period was "substantially derived" from Elite Dangerous and that over half of their development time (51%) went into Planet Coaster.

That tells you they were collecting revenue from Elite Dangerous and spending much of that revenue on developing Planet Coaster instead of adequately developing the Horizons expansions we paid them for.

That is why Horizons turned out the way it did.

QED
 
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Did somebody say citation?

Frontier Developments 2016 Annual Report: http://ar2016.frontier.co.uk/, p. 23:

"Following a full year of Planet Coaster development, the increased amount of development effort related to future self-published releases resulted in 51% of all development manmonths contributing to releases outside the period (2015: 30%)."

"Self-published revenue was substantially derived from product sales within the Elite Dangerous franchise and related digital in-game purchases, with the Alpha proportion of pre-orders for Planet Coaster and Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 sales on the iOS platform also contributing."

FD is telling shareholders in their annual report that their revenue during this period was "substantially derived" from Elite Dangerous and that over half of their development time (51%) went into Planet Coaster.

That tells you they were collecting revenue from Elite Dangerous and spending much of that revenue on developing Planet Coaster instead of adequately developing the Horizons expansions we paid them for.

That is why Horizons turned out the way it did.

QED

Yep, that's about what I figured. At some point when the next statement is released I'm sure it will tell a similar story about the upcoming Jurassic game.
 
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