PvP My experience with the PvP hub - a shout out and kudos

[Theodrid]

Welcome to the internet

It's always gonna be six of one, half a dozen of the other. I appreciate your intentions are nothing but pristine, but as you say, if we were to do the incredible and throw off yonder shackles of toxicity, it would have to be an all-round effort. As I said: for every carebear comment, or players asking to remove PG entirely, there's someone yelling "griefer!" at anyone that mentions PvP and insists it is relegated to consensual handbag fights in the corner.

What's potentially more problematic is that while the PvP muppets are generally visible from a mile away (typically they know this and rely on it), the latter of the above muppet-ness is pretty accepted around here. No one is prepared to call out players that absolutely refuse to discuss PvP players getting content.

I'm not sure on that last part mate, I realise it's not enough but Ziggy, myself and a few others have touted some ideas around regarding PVP - and I know it's not a one way street with more moderate PVP players like yourself touting PVE ideas too.

As for calling them out, I've called players that boast about combat logging in open a few choice names and I know others outside of the PVP spectrum have too. With regards to 'ideas' it's tougher, because, as you say, it's the internet. Not every idea is a good one for a start, nor is there ever going to be consensus, but as I said how seriously are you going to take a suggestion from somebody that's just called you an idiot, coward, scared, carebear, forumdad, psycho, griefer, ganker or infant?

My point being, not all suggestions come from people that deserve to be entertained nor does what they have said and/or done sometimes recently get easily forgotten.

 

[Arguendo]

Re Stitch & Theodrid's conversation.

There is some communication elsewhere (Discord) between PvP groups on opposite sides of the law, so it is possible. The forums and reddit aren't really good channels for it though. They are supposed to be discussion panels of sorts, and will always attract diametrically opposed people from both sides. Can't have a good internet discussion without some dung-slinging

A little more respect for the other side, and that goes both ways, would be nice though.

 

[Herbrand]

Advocating combat logging is why you were banned.

Fair enough.

Goes without saying I never partaken in - or advocated - combat logging during PvP, only as a last resort against griefing. Note that with this I'm not asking you to reconsider - I'm just clarifying my stance.

 

[Herbrand]

interesting. i've read through that stuff (not examined the actual logs in full detail, neither watched the video).

it appears harry makes a strong case with the hits registered in the log, without observable damage. however, you are right in that this can't be conclusive (of you shield hacking) without knowledge of the protocol and the precise meaning of logged events. sadly, it seems damage is not logged at all. why you didn't take damage is unclear. with the current evidence (logs and frontier's response) i would guess the most probable cause is indeed client desynchronization, due to lag, packet loss or whatever, which doesn't surprise me the least with this lamebutt p2p implementation they had the balls to sell us (i have experienced similar things (and worse) myself several times).

what strikes me is that this should be obvious to harry too. as an experienced elite pvp player he must have witnessed this quite often, and know better than most how flaky the network implementation is. and i understand it's annoying, but it's still no reason for such a serious accusation, nor to stubbornly insist in the undeniability of those log entries that actually prove nothing. it's also very sad to read how a bunch of other cmdr's cheer along with that nonsense and single you out. one would hope they are not really representative of what's being purported as 'the finest of elite pvp'.

that said, there is no excuse for combat logging. you should rot in solo!

I came up with my own explanation for his actions, but alas discussing it now would be pointless. The rest is almost understandable - he has an influence and "street cred", while I am a random nobody with controversial stances that plays on and off: of course without the means to understand the technicalities I'd side with him if I was another PvPer.

The interesting bit that came out of all this, however, is the relationship between lag, hits and damage, something that I would be willing to study further. I had a session with Zaphod where I tried to replicate the exact circumstances to "catch on tape" a non-damaging shot and I went as far as artificially simulating lag, but in the end he lost his recording so nothing came out from that.

If you - or anyone else really - is interested I am open to test this by adding various levels of lag/jitter/dropped packets on either ends, exchange a few shots and film the thing for further analysis.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

If you - or anyone else really - is interested I am open to test this by adding various levels of lag/jitter/dropped packets on either ends, exchange a few shots and film the thing for further analysis.

Y'all are a bunch of nerds, yo

 

[WR3ND]

Y'all are a bunch of nerds, yo

I'm like the Thor of nerds... and maybe a bit of the Fenrir of them too. I'm not a pretentious git though.

So, I mean... I don't know.

Spoiler

 

[EvE4evah]

I'm like the Thor of nerds... and maybe a bit of the Fenrir of them too. I'm not a pretentious git though.

So, I mean... I don't know.

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/1zkCYEc.jpg

Wow very cool paint

 

[WR3ND]

Wow very cool paint

One of my favorites.

Cheers.

 

[znôrt]

If you - or anyone else really - is interested I am open to test this by adding various levels of lag/jitter/dropped packets on either ends, exchange a few shots and film the thing for further analysis.

i understand your personal motivations. however ... i think there are some whitecoats at frontier whose job would be to do exactly that. if they don't care ... you are just going to prove something we all know, and nothing will be done about it.

anyway i'm happy to help, why not? but can't record atm. had to uninstall nvidia experience because it was screwing up framerate in another game.

 

[Sebastian Rooks]

I apologize for some post edits. No disrespect meant, I just wanted to shorten the inevitable wall that's here...

First of all, heat weapons are not banned in PvP hub as we believe they are balanced after their most recent patch, and a few have used them to great effect. The only weapons that are banned are seeker missiles in small ship combat because of balance, synthesis and healing beams. The reason for the latter two being banned is we want to keep matches somewhat concise and both weapons artificially extend the duration of such fights. People using healing beams means ship health pools are bloated and people need synth to deal with the additional hp. We don't want to make players feel like they are forced to farm materials before every fight. Its worth noting that these are just the default rules and if both teams agree on something different beforehand no one is going to try and stop them, and basic synth is often allowed for niche builds as long as its decided prior to the match.

Quick post about rules and such. Rules are agreed upon by the community and if you want a change it the current rule set, bring it up for a vote. If there's enough Yes's on it then it will be removed /or/ added accordingly.

Healing beams are currently banned due to them being overpowered, not bugged. And currently majority of the community agrees that it is indeed overpowered and will only make the fights longer and more one dimensional (as you have to focus the healer first every time regardless of the other people in the opposing wing, and if there's more than 1 healer then there's nothing you can actually do about it other than get super lucky with a alpha strike+ shield break on one of them. with the current HP on ships, that's very hard to achieve especially if you build it to have max base HP to start off with, without banks). Thanks for the post, hope we see more of you in the hub for some dank pvp

Don't use reverb cascade. Don't use ApA's with TLB. Don't fly with crimes on. If you are in a honest 1v1 don't be a sore looser and get your friends to drop in on you. Don't station gank. And remember: It's more honorable to die in a "proper" fight than it is to Highwake!

oof7 Cmdrs

Is scramble spectrum allowed at the hub?

Yep.

Joining the discord is a necessity for joining the arranged fights. Outside of that, you're likely not to see any action at all.

Ok, got it. However, I never saw a definitive answer as to whether APAs w/TLB are good to go or taboo. Someone did say they were ok to use. So, yay or nay?

Questions of my own:
Are there any ship restrictions? Generally, I prefer my small ones.
Since heat weapons are "ok now," I can potentially bring MCs w/Incendiary mods to fight?
Frags/Double Shot Frags w/Screening Shells allowed? Off limits?
What's the best time to find anyone to be able to schedule a match GMT? (I'm in EST, but I can add/subtract...sometimes, lol)
Is scotch allowed? I'm happy to share...

Rooks o7

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Since heat weapons are "ok now," I can potentially bring MCs w/Incendiary mods to fight?

Quick note on this one - "heat weapons" refers to the effects that add heat to your target - Thermal Shock and Thermal Cascade.

Incendiary just converts your damage type from kinetic to thermal [1] so it affects a different resistance. No-one will object to that - since people in PvP generally balance their resistances pretty closely, all you've basically got is a normal multicannon with a worse thermal load.

[1] Which is not the same as Thermal, which adds heat rather than affecting thermal resistance. The English translation of this game isn't always perfect.

 

[Sebastian Rooks]

Quick note on this one - "heat weapons" refers to the effects that add heat to your target - Thermal Shock and Thermal Cascade.

Incendiary just converts your damage type from kinetic to thermal [1] so it affects a different resistance. No-one will object to that - since people in PvP generally balance their resistances pretty closely, all you've basically got is a normal multicannon with a worse thermal load.

[1] Which is not the same as Thermal, which adds heat rather than affecting thermal resistance. The English translation of this game isn't always perfect.

@ CMDR Ian Doncaster:
Thank you for clarifying the differences. I do in fact find the descriptions of both effects to be somewhat vague. So thermal shock is still ok or leave it at home?

I do like my APAs, especially on my FAS. I don't have TLB on those, but I do have it on one C2 PA. I'm concerned that it could be mistaken as being on the APAs since it's efficient engineered. Is there a way to avoid problems/confusion in this regard? Re-engineer/replace?

Rooks o7

 

[ryan_m]

@ CMDR Ian Doncaster:
Thank you for clarifying the differences. I do in fact find the descriptions of both effects to be somewhat vague. So thermal shock is still ok or leave it at home?

I do like my APAs, especially on my FAS. I don't have TLB on those, but I do have it on one C2 PA. I'm concerned that it could be mistaken as being on the APAs since it's efficient engineered. Is there a way to avoid problems/confusion in this regard? Re-engineer/replace?

Rooks o7

Thermal shock is fine, just realize that it's not really useful unless you 100% commit to it. You need pretty much every weapon with thermal shock for it to really work.

 

[Sebastian Rooks]

Thermal shock is fine, just realize that it's not really useful unless you 100% commit to it. You need pretty much every weapon with thermal shock for it to really work.

Thanks for confirming that CMDR ryan_m.

An FGS would be a good ship to try it out with then. Seven OC incendiaries starts cooking my plant in seconds. I've got pretty good thermal reduction on the plant too. Ultimately though, that's why I mixed effects in the first place. I've never used straight T-shock on a full weapons build above small pad ships. It never seemed to affect larger targets much for me, so I never bothered to go further with it. (Probably due more to the penalty fighting ships above my class) This is worth a second look. Thank you again!

Rooks o7

 

[ryan_m]

Thanks for confirming that CMDR ryan_m.

An FGS would be a good ship to try it out with then. Seven OC incendiaries starts cooking my plant in seconds. I've got pretty good thermal reduction on the plant too. Ultimately though, that's why I mixed effects in the first place. I've never used straight T-shock on a full weapons build above small pad ships. It never seemed to affect larger targets much for me, so I never bothered to go further with it. (Probably due more to the penalty fighting ships above my class) This is worth a second look. Thank you again!

Rooks o7

Just some advice, a gunship will not last long in a PvP hub fight. They die very quickly and are too slow to keep up with the FDL/FAS.

 

[tymbark]

Just some advice, a gunship will not last long in a PvP hub fight. They die very quickly and are too slow to keep up with the FDL/FAS.

Rooks, if you're lookin for fun don't listen to him... he's 100 rolls meta boi, not everyone has time for that. This hub is egomaniac s*it show and you'll have more fun at CG against 4 0 2 FAON maniacs so do whatever the F you wanna do!

 

[jasonbarron]

Rooks, if you're lookin for fun don't listen to him... he's 100 rolls meta boi, not everyone has time for that. This hub is egomaniac s*it show and you'll have more fun at CG against 4 0 2 FAON maniacs so do whatever the F you wanna do!

It's pretty well established that if someone is looking for solid intel and advice on builds and/or flying techniques Ryan_m is exactly one of the authorities on the subject. It's as simple as this: listen to him if you are even remotely interested in getting good.

 

[ryan_m]

Rooks, if you're lookin for fun don't listen to him... he's 100 rolls meta boi, not everyone has time for that. This hub is egomaniac s*it show and you'll have more fun at CG against 4 0 2 FAON maniacs so do whatever the F you wanna do!

Hey, if you want to fly 4-0-2 in a wing fight, be my guest. You're gonna be a liability to your team and lose, but hey, if you're having fun, who cares.

 

[tymbark]

It's pretty well established that if someone is looking for solid intel and advice on builds and/or flying techniques Ryan_m is exactly one of the authorities on the subject. It's as simple as this: listen to him if you are even remotely interested in getting good.

I agree on flying techniques, but how about you put yourself in a handicap and show us how it's done? Like bi-weave FAS against scramble FDL? Are you good enough for that?

Hey, if you want to fly 4-0-2 in a wing fight, be my guest. You're gonna be a liability to your team and lose, but hey, if you're having fun, who cares.

Did I mention I fly 4 0 2? If he flies Gunship it means he needs more skills to win than your meta b-s and I have more respect for him.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

I agree on flying techniques, but how about you put yourself in a handicap and show us how it's done? Like bi-weave FAS against scramble FDL? Are you good enough for that?



Did I mention I fly 4 0 2? If he flies Gunship it means he needs more skills to win than your meta b-s and I have more respect for him.

Its not up to the players, fdev created one meta ship (FDL) and a semi meta (FAS/ clipper), rest is niche (fgs, python, fds), fdev can introduce another combat oriented ship that can compete with the FDL meta, they made the T10 for who knows what reason...