PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[missmartian]

#treatallplayersequally

This is an issue that does not just effect PVP. The thread has been moved here on purpose.

https://youtu.be/4eL1cf27a4Y

FDEV the new EA.

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

#treatallplayersequally

This is an issue that does not just effect PVP. The thread has been moved here on purpose.

https://youtu.be/4eL1cf27a4Y

FDEV the new EA.

I disagree with the thread being moved to the PvP subforum and am not satisfied with the devs' handling of the combat logging issue, but "FDEV the new EA"? That is utterly ridiculous hyperbole.

 

[Martian Successor]

I wouldn't go as far as likening FD to EA. The two are miles apart from each other for many reasons that are too numerous and too off-topic to list here. I do agree however that FD need to treat their players with more dignity and respect and just generally be more honest and forward thinking about things. Like for example moving threads around to make them less visible for PR reasons and hiding that behind paper thin "appropriate forum section" excuses. That ultimately creates a more negative reputation for your company, not less. Hiding the truth doesn't make it go away.

In my opinion it all stems yet again from FD's awkward uneasyness with communication in general and their inability to properly communicate with their own community.

 

[JosiahD]

No idea. Clearly they don't want it to be discussed in the Dangerous Discussion section for whatever reason.

Or it could simply be that it's considered more of an issue for PvP? As in those impacts on PvP are the most relevant? After all, it's usually PvPers who raise the issue (though sometimes it seems just to bait or goad Frontier into a response) regardless of PvE impacts from combat logging. From where I sit, although I don't disagree that there can be PvE ramifications from combat logging, I don't feel those ramifications are anywhere near as significant as they can be from a PvP perspective. The PvP forum seems to me to be a good place to discuss it. Sometimes I think some people would see a conspiracy in the sun rising in the east if it was counter to an argument they were making.

 

[Jenner]

Can we please stick to OP's topic? We seem to be hung up on discussing the location of this thread rather than the subject matter at hand. Thanks.

 

[Devari]

I don't experience even half as many crashes as you imply Devari and I frequently play in a wing with friends. We have done almost everything in the game as a group of wings in the same instance: SRV racing, canyon racing, Combat zone/Haz Res farming, PvP training, PvP against other wings, trading, exploring, Thargoid hunting, CG patrolling, etc. The most annoying and hindering issues we come up against is getting everybody into the same instance and the rather frequent inordinantly long wait times where the game sticks you into the "blue tunnel" transition screen between supercruise and normal space. The blue tunnel issues is at its highest frequency when doing PvP fights because we're constantly chasing opponents through supercruise into normal space and vice versa (lot of switching in between the two).

It is however actually quite rare for any of us to get disconnected and dropped to the main menu or have to task kill out of the game because it froze. Those things do happen occassionaly but not at all frequently unless the game itself is having issues. I find that on Sundays the game usually has these more frequent connection issues. I wing up with up to around 35 or so different people from my player group (very rarely at the same time) and some of them are from as far out as Austrailia (I'm in Europe). Now how do you explain that none of us experience as many disconnections as you while stressing the game's P2P to its limits?

The only times we have successfully managed to exponentially increase the rate of disconnections from the game is when we fill up an instance with more than 4-5 wings, that's upwards of 16-20 players. At that point a few of us start experiencing disconnections and crashes. Others can remain connected the whole time for some reason, sometimes I've been in the lucky group that doesn't get crashed out at all.

So there you go Devari, a sample size of about 30 plus players that I can personally vouch for because I regularly play with them. Now I'm not saying this makes all those bug and crash reports wrong, but what I am saying is that you have no possible way of claiming with any degree of accuracy that the majority of players experience your level of frequent connection problems with this game.

So based on your own personal experiences with a small group of players are you trying to suggest that your experiences will encompass all of the complaints, threads, posts and comments made on these forums about all of the game's bugs and D/C issues?

Have you personally encountered the falling skimmer bug? What about the NPC ramming bug? Those bugs existed and affected a significant number of players regardless of whether you've personally encountered them or not.

Just because you personally might not have experienced certain bugs doesn't that mean they "aren't a problem" or that they are somehow due to a player's "internet connection".

 

[Han Zulu]

I've never clogged, even when I knew I would lose millions and being griefed. Still, I don't think CL is a big issue. If you attack someone for PvP and they clog, to me, that shows that you won by default. Perhaps you didn't get the money for the bounty, but so what. Can someone explain what and who loses if someone clogs?

 

[missmartian]

I disagree with the thread being moved to the PvP subforum and am not satisfied with the devs' handling of the combat logging issue, but "FDEV the new EA"? That is utterly ridiculous hyperbole.

Lying to their customers and trying to hide the discussion; a step in the wrong direction. They can either keep lying and say that they're going to act or admit that they just don't care and are not going to do anything about it.

They acted against the engineering exploit because it was being done by predominantly PvPers, they will do nothing about this because it's predominantly done by PvErs. They should admit that they treat their player base differently based on play style. It'd be nice if they could treat all players equally but alas no.

 

[Fishy]

Can we please stick to OP's topic? We seem to be hung up on discussing the location of this thread rather than the subject matter at hand. Thanks.

That's because the location of a thread matters greatly to the discussion. I might be wrong but I suspect that people who even look in this section of the forum are overwhelmingly on one side of the fence regarding combat logging, both in terms of how they feel about it and in how harshly they'd like to see it punished. The location of a thread decides who gets to see it and react to it. Attracting wider attention to a problem that matters to one isn't done by talking about it in an echo chamber. By moving the thread here, the debate/discussion has basically been killed, which, to my cynical self, was just the point.

 

[Goose4291]

Can we please stick to OP's topic? We seem to be hung up on discussing the location of this thread rather than the subject matter at hand. Thanks.

I'm sorry Jenner, but the threads change of location is pertinent to the topic.

It seems now if anything doesn't conform to forum status quo is posted in Dangerous Discussion, even when it really should be there, it seems to get shunted off into a sub-sub forum to die, whereas stuff that does conform to the status quo even if it really shouldn't be there, seems to happily stay there indefinitely.

 

[Julio Montega]

That's because the location of a thread matters greatly to the discussion. I might be wrong but I suspect that people who even look in this section of the forum are overwhelmingly on one side of the fence regarding combat logging, both in terms of how they feel about it and in how harshly they'd like to see it punished. The location of a thread decides who gets to see it and react to it. Attracting wider attention to a problem that matters to one isn't done by talking about it in an echo chamber. By moving the thread here, the debate/discussion has basically been killed, which, to my cynical self, was just the point.

Absolutely the point, as the abusal of the nature of connection,
or the game being a task under windows or alike for consoles,
required to play the game is not bound to any mode alone.

It greatly harms the discussion,
as the perspective of CMDRs
who are not PvP focussed
is missing out by this.

And this is on the topic, since this here is an investigation
in the matter of frontier acting or not on the problematic of combat logging.
By moving the thread outside of a more open crowd you guys take action against
discussing combat logging on a broad basis allowing a consensus,
basically reacting to the following quote from OP:

FDev, be straightforward with us. If you don’t care about combat logging, say so. It will save people a bunch of time if we don’t have to submit tickets for this stuff every time we see someone cheating. Instead, what you’re doing is undermining faith in yourselves, because you’re telling people to report exploiters because you totally do punish them while taking those reports and tossing them in the garbage can.

 

[Martian Successor]

So based on your own personal experiences with a small group of players are you trying to suggest that your experiences will encompass all of the complaints, threads, posts and comments made on these forums about all of the game's bugs and D/C issues?

No, I never suggested such a thing. You must not have read my entire post. The point of my post was to disprove your claim that connection issues are a frequent problem for the majority of the player base just because you say they are.

1) My statistical analyses trumps yours simply as a matter of basic mathematics. 30 plus people not experiencing frequent disconnects and crashes when playing in wings (i.e. putting the most stress on ED's P2P architecture) vs. 1 person having a ton of frequent disconnections even when they are in an instance by themselves.

2) You cannot claim as fact that your personal experience is the majority experience for the majority of players. Neither can I by the way but that wasn't the point. The point was to prove your assumption wrong, not to say that my experience is typical of everyone's experience. Don't forget that I'm not the one claiming I represent the average player's experience, that was you.

Have you personally encountered the falling skimmer bug? What about the NPC ramming bug? Those bugs existed and affected a significant number of players regardless of whether you've personally encountered them or not.

Just because you personally might not have experienced certain bugs doesn't that mean they "aren't a problem" or that they are somehow due to a player's "internet connection".

Likewise though, just because you are experiencing issues doesn't mean the majority of the player base is experiencing those issues in the exact same way and frequency. Can you see the point being made now? You're claiming that your experiences with connection issues and bugs is the majority of the player base's experience. I and others here have proven you wrong immediately by explaining that we do not experience the frequency of these issues. Ergo your experiences do not represent the majority.

And please don't retreat to, "Oh but look at all the bugs reports!" Because I can just as easily void that entire line of argumentation simply by asking: how do you know that for every one player submitting a dropped connection report there aren't at least 2 players that experience little to no problems with their connections and have never needed to submit a report?

Again I say to you, only FD can confirm or deny the statistics involved in this argument. Until then it is a completely moot point that can't go anywhere because none of us have access to the indisputable facts.

 

[Martian Successor]

Or it could simply be that it's considered more of an issue for PvP? As in those impacts on PvP are the most relevant? After all, it's usually PvPers who raise the issue (though sometimes it seems just to bait or goad Frontier into a response) regardless of PvE impacts from combat logging. From where I sit, although I don't disagree that there can be PvE ramifications from combat logging, I don't feel those ramifications are anywhere near as significant as they can be from a PvP perspective. The PvP forum seems to me to be a good place to discuss it. Sometimes I think some people would see a conspiracy in the sun rising in the east if it was counter to an argument they were making.

The post you are quoting is referring to a thread that got locked just because it posted a gaming journalism video not one that was moved to the PvP section. Apparently posting links to videos made by professional gaming journalists is forbidden now.

As to you voicing your rather derogatory attitude that people whose opinions you disagree with must of course be conspiracy theorists... I can only shake my head at that kind of sentiment. I'm not calling everyone that disagrees with me on the effects of c-logging on the PvE side of the game this game's equivalent of climate change deniers. Can I ask you to please try and show the same courtesy?

 

[JosiahD]

The post you are quoting is referring to a thread that got locked just because it posted a gaming journalism video not one that was moved to the PvP section. Apparently posting links to videos made by professional gaming journalists is forbidden now.

As to you voicing your rather derogatory attitude that people whose opinions you disagree with must of course be conspiracy theorists... I can only shake my head at that kind of sentiment. I'm not calling everyone that disagrees with me on the effects of c-logging on the PvE side of the game this game's equivalent of climate change deniers. Can I ask you to please try and show the same courtesy?

Follow the breadcrumbs of that commentary back and it takes you to this comment below by Cosmos....specifically referring to THIS very thread about combat logging. I was simply following the chain of the conversation. Regardless, my point stands - PvPers are the main protagonists in voicing concerns about combat logging ergo it appears to be primarily a PvP concern (notwithstanding potential PvE impacts) and in turn the PvP forum is the most appropriate place to discuss it. I have no problem with others that disagree with that though.

Why has this thread been put in PvP? Combat logging is combat logging whether its against a player or the bots.

My attitude wasn't in any way derogatory....merely reflecting an observation that people seem to be able to see a conspiracy in almost anything these days, even without evidence that such conspiracy even exists. Certainly the posts I'm reading asserting that Frontier is lying etc etc lead to no other conclusion than Frontier's stance on combat logging being some sort of conspiracy....not a view I share.

 

[Devari]

No, I never suggested such a thing. You must not have read my entire post. The point of my post was to disprove your claim that connection issues are a frequent problem for the majority of the player base just because you say they are.

There are frequent threads complaining about connection problems and game crashes on these forums, most notably multicrew which hasn't been improved in the past 8 months since launch, but also wings and other features that are very unstable and buggy. Suggesting that this is an issue that is not widely encountered among the player base is absurd.

1) My statistical analyses trumps yours simply as a matter of basic mathematics

First, you haven't don't any "statistical analysis" at all. You just play in a group who happen to have less issues with D/Cs than other players. You haven't "analyzed" anything, you haven't even done a rudimentary "survey" or "poll" among a representative sample of players. You just assume because you haven't "heard" about these issues in you very limited player group that they don't happen for other players.

30 plus people not experiencing frequent disconnects and crashes when playing in wings (i.e. putting the most stress on ED's P2P architecture) vs. 1 person having a ton of frequent disconnections even when they are in an instance by themselves.

First, you can't have a wing of "30 people" so you are significantly misrepresenting the issue when you try to claim that those "30 people" aren't having problems. You can only have 4 people in a wing a time. For all you know those other players may be encountering D/Cs in other situations. You aren't continually monitoring their game performance. Second, the issue isn't just D/Cs although these are quite frequent for many players in both wings and multicrew. The issue is also bugs that cause the game to crash as well.

2) You cannot claim as fact that your personal experience is the majority experience for the majority of players. Neither can I by the way but that wasn't the point. The point was to prove your assumption wrong, not to say that my experience is typical of everyone's experience. Don't forget that I'm not the one claiming I represent the average player's experience, that was you.

I'm not basing my comments simply on my personal experience. I'm basing them on the numerous bug reports, forum posts and all the other information I have available, which also happens to agree with much of my own personal game experience as well.

Likewise though, just because you are experiencing issues doesn't mean the majority of the player base is experiencing those issues in the exact same way and frequency. Can you see the point being made now? You're claiming that your experiences with connection issues and bugs is the majority of the player base's experience. I and others here have proven you wrong immediately by explaining that we do not experience the frequency of these issues. Ergo your experiences do not represent the majority.

Again, you haven't "proven me wrong" at all. You've just tried to pretend that because you haven't experienced these issues yourself that they aren't happening to other players despite all of the information we have on these forums about these concerns.

And please don't retreat to, "Oh but look at all the bugs reports!" Because I can just as easily void that entire line of argumentation simply by asking: how do you know that for every one player submitting a dropped connection report there aren't at least 2 players that experience little to no problems with their connections and have never needed to submit a report?

I see, so anything that differs from your own limited experience should be disregarded?

Again I say to you, only FD can confirm or deny the statistics involved in this argument. Until then it is a completely moot point that can't go anywhere because none of us have access to the indisputable facts.

I can confirm that various specific bugs exist based on my own experience matching those of the forums. I can do the same for frequent D/C in wings or multicrew. Personal experienced backed up by forum posts and bug reports shows a pattern of these issues occurring. Whether you personally experience them or not is irrelevant.

I also noticed you managed to avoid the issue of whether you had personally encountered the falling skimmer bug or the NPC ramming bug. Do you claim those weren't a problem either? If you and the "30 players" you play with haven't even encountered those bugs then that tells me how extensive your "experience" is in actually encountering game bugs.

 

[Cosmos]

What makes me laugh about this sorry affair is the statements from Frontier: Please don't investigate us because if combat loggers know how we detect them, then they'll be able to do it more easily.

LOL WAT? That sort of suggests they are doing something about it which all things considered is laughable. As for the thread being moved so its out of sight, well thats exactly why its been moved. The 'moderation' of this forum goes way beyond moderation, its more about censorship and smotheringly attempting to control the narrative.

 

[Stigbob]

What makes me laugh about this sorry affair is the statements from Frontier: Please don't investigate us because if combat loggers know how we detect them, then they'll be able to do it more easily.

LOL WAT? That sort of suggests they are doing something about it which all things considered is laughable. As for the thread being moved so its out of sight, well thats exactly why its been moved. The 'moderation' of this forum goes way beyond moderation, its more about censorship and smotheringly attempting to control the narrative.

If there actually was a mod/FDEV conspiracy they'd have just slapped everyone who complained about this thread getting moved to this sub-forum with a rule 12 infraction.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

What makes me laugh about this sorry affair is the statements from Frontier: Please don't investigate us because if combat loggers know how we detect them, then they'll be able to do it more easily.

LOL WAT? That sort of suggests they are doing something about it which all things considered is laughable. As for the thread being moved so its out of sight, well thats exactly why its been moved. The 'moderation' of this forum goes way beyond moderation, its more about censorship and smotheringly attempting to control the narrative.

Some awesome tinfoil hattery there.

 

[Stigbob]

Some awesome tinfoil hattery there.

That's just what THEY want you to think.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

That's because the location of a thread matters greatly to the discussion. I might be wrong but I suspect that people who even look in this section of the forum are overwhelmingly on one side of the fence regarding combat logging, both in terms of how they feel about it and in how harshly they'd like to see it punished. The location of a thread decides who gets to see it and react to it. Attracting wider attention to a problem that matters to one isn't done by talking about it in an echo chamber. By moving the thread here, the debate/discussion has basically been killed, which, to my cynical self, was just the point.

While I have sympathy with Cl problem, I totally understand moving a fabricated, shoddy investigation that's sole purpose seems to have been to cause controversy to the 'back pages'.

Also all you guys accusing FD of 'lying' need a chill pill, there was nothing for them to act on in terms of facts from that investigation, 5 occurrences in 5 mnth by 1 perpetrator; hence no action taken.

Whole thread has the smell of 'healies 4 feelies' about it, when FD had announced a fix to the issue for the next update, but SDC had to make some prpoganda about it to pretend they were instrumental in the fix. Likewise FD have said they will try and tackle this more fully with 'Karma' so wait till then ( and if you can't go play something else) and THEN go ape and complain if the fix is no good.