Beyond C&P - Must admit I'm slightly concerned about PvP piracy outcome

[DaveB]

...Black market transactions in ANARCHY hurt the ANARCHY faction...

Not going to disagree with you that this is a problem.

Right now black market transactions hurt the stations ruling faction. This, on the face of it, seems ludicrous if the rulers are anarchic but thinking about it then yeah, dodging the factions "perfectly legitimate taxes, buddy - we're the management and you don't want us to be unhappy with you, do you?" would hurt them. But the question is what should need to be traded on the black market in an anarchy?

I started to type that there should be no illegal goods in an anarchy but then realized that there may be - after all, an anarchy faction may ban certain items from import to their space. If they maintain their rule by force of arms they might want to restrict certain military hardware, for example.
Then I started to type there should be no STOLEN goods, but what if they were stolen from the ruling faction? Stolen from anyone else should be no problem on the open market. So how could we determine who it was stolen from and whether the local faction would object to it?

Well, if it was dropped by an NPC, it was stolen from that NPCs faction. That's easy. Similarly spawned in open space as illegal salvage, generating a faction that makes sense as its "original owner" would be basic. So what if it was stolen from a player?
If it was originally mission cargo and the mission was abandoned, then it was already "stolen" in the player's hold and the original owner would be the faction that gave the mission. If the player bought it on the open market and owned it directly, then jettisoning it would mark it as having the original owner "independent pilot"

That way, stolen cargo could be made to be only a problem at an anarchy station if the original owner was the stations ruling faction - but if it was, you'd BETTER sell it on the black market! Stolen from anyone else, open market is fine and helps the ruling faction the same way trade does any other station.
Law-abiding stations could still continue to prohibit all stolen cargo from the open market as at present.

 

[Ouberos]

Perfect example of stereotypical labeling and generalization.

Much like Zadian's earlier comment about how all Pirates are too dumb to be traders. I'm surprised it took this long for a care bear to appear really.

 

[Lecitron]

You are reflecting the whole stuff with an "out-of-game" perspective.
Have a single look at bounty hunting, there are no repercussions for simple
murder there, no need to inform anyone you are going to grab a bounty, thus attacking
just an arbitrary scan and it all is well.

Like, obviously no murder the criminal, real world. Although it will be an interesting idea to capture criminal escape pod and carry it to prison or court

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Much like Zadian's earlier comment about how all Pirates are too dumb to be traders. …

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough and didn't make it more obvious that my comments where aimed at in-game characters, in-game activities and in-game reasons. It wasn't my intention to insult the players of pirate characters.

In game it's much easier to trade and much more profitable. Even more profitable would be to do passenger missions. Now just looking at in-game things and not at the player and the motivations of a player out side of the game, would it make sense for any human in the galaxy in the year 3304 to become a pirate?
Imagine NPC Yarrr sitting in a ship and wondering how to make money. Choosing piracy would be a rather dumb decision based on the in-game mechanics.

Outside of the game, the player choosing to play a pirate just decides to play in a way that players considers fun or entertaining or interesting.

I thought it was obvious that a player is NOT a pirate or a criminal, and that the comments about pirates and criminals was not referring to the player.

Again sorry if my comment came across like an insult.

 

[Anopheles]

This is of course a valid point of view.
For some people, getting pirated is, or at least can be fun.
However, for the majority this is not the case. If it were, then we'd not have all these threads about Open being empty, or people "hiding" in Solo, or of CLogging etc, since everyone would be all happy and jolly about being pirated and/or murderhoboed.

So yeah, that's why PG and Solo exist, for those who don't feel that being a victim is fun.

In any case, for realism's sake, piracy should never be as profitable as any legal career path. If the risk vs reward is to be balanced, then stolen goods should sell for approximately 0.01% of the market value, since the pirate risks about 0.01% of what a trader does in any interaction. An interaction I might add, that the trader didn't want in the first place.

This is the debating fallacy called 'appeal to majority'. It's usually refers to the wisdom of crowds, itself a fallacy.

The universe is meant to be cold and callous. You get killed for parking infractions. Pirates may kill you. Bounty hunters can kill you for a 200 credit bounty.

The philosophy is clear. Life is cheap.

The people arguing against pvp are ignoring this, not the pirates. And as for the mentality of those who chose piracy then once again we have people forgetting the meaning of the word 'play'.

 

[Mrat13]

This is of course a valid point of view.
For some people, getting pirated is, or at least can be fun.
However, for the majority this is not the case. If it were, then we'd not have all these threads about Open being empty, or people "hiding" in Solo, or of CLogging etc, since everyone would be all happy and jolly about being pirated and/or murderhoboed.

So yeah, that's why PG and Solo exist, for those who don't feel that being a victim is fun.

In any case, for realism's sake, piracy should never be as profitable as any legal career path. If the risk vs reward is to be balanced, then stolen goods should sell for approximately 0.01% of the market value, since the pirate risks about 0.01% of what a trader does in any interaction. An interaction I might add, that the trader didn't want in the first place.

Someone doesn't read.

If they did, they'd know those threads exist, not becuase of pirates, but becuase of murder hobos in God rolled engineered ships.

But if it suits your narrative.....

 

[Mrat13]

You can meet a need through crime, but that doesn't make crime essential, since the same need can be met with more honest trade.
It's just a badly worded advertisement.

Without trade, civilisation would fall apart.
Without crime, civilisation just gets better.
Without politicians, we get utopia.

Politician is just another word for "they who rule".

As long as their is power to be had, their will be corruption. Power corrupts, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

Utopia is a fallacy, no one can be incorruptible. You are either the sheep, or the wolf, and I think we know what we'd all rather want to be.....

But anyway, have a nice day!

 

[bigity]

I'm finding it ironic that criminals are asking for a "reason" to commit crimes.

As if criminals had to have one to begin with.

It's a game. Get off your moral high horse, you look like an idiot up there.

 

[bigity]

Clearly, I subscribe to this view 100%. The main driving factor behind any player who engages in piracy is that they find it to be a fun and entertaining use of their leisure time.

Clearly, however, Neil F does not subscribe to the same view as both of us. He wants it to be fun *and* without much in the way of sensible consequence (even though he is foisting negative consequences onto other players deliberately and with forethought, but wishes no negative consequences for him in return, please), and he also wants it to be more profitable in the way of Credits in addition to it being fun and without much in the way of consequence.

If players are drawn to piracy, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of piracy is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?

Cheerz

Mark H

Flawed argument IMO. In a game marketed with piracy as a viable gameplay choice, why shouldn't it be as fun and beneficial as any other type of activity? The people who do it now do it out of love, these changes are just another slap in the face to those who do so.

 

[bigity]

Castrating or making it close to reality?

Think about it.

Video game. If reality is what you want in your games, I'm sure someone will take your 60 bucks and tell you to get to work.

Why, whenever a 'pirate' player posts, they seemingly have no clue how to pirate?

I'm not a pirate, I prefer to stay legal unless it's say, smuggling, which if I'm sneaky, I can get away with, unlike pircacy.

But, I know all you need to do is target the cargo hatch, and all the goodies will simply fall out of your victim, without killing them.

Seems to me these 'pirates', deserve their trade to die, if they can't seem to do their job properly....

You obviously don't do alot of pirating, NPC or otherwise.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Now on the actual point that pirates take away from your fun: they don't, they add to the fun, if Frontier thought getting pirated couldn't be fun it wouldn't be part of the multiplayer experience. If any of the possible and legal interactions in Open retracts from your fun - and piracy is very much an expected and normal interaction - you have the responsibility to either not pick Open as your game mode, or accept that occasionally your expectations will conflict with what the game is trying to do.

This is of course a valid point of view.
For some people, getting pirated is, or at least can be fun.
However, for the majority this is not the case. If it were, then we'd not have all these threads about Open being empty, or people "hiding" in Solo, or of CLogging etc, since everyone would be all happy and jolly about being pirated and/or murderhoboed.

So yeah, that's why PG and Solo exist, for those who don't feel that being a victim is fun.

While taking different perspectives on whether piracy is a good thing or not, I do think it's notable that you both effectively agree that PG and Solo are not at risk of piracy. I would agree that NPC pirates are so ineffectual - dodge the interdiction, low-wake before they can bring down a token shield, tank for 30s until the system authority scare them off, actually kill them, whatever - that they might as well not be in the game.

It does make me wonder why Frontier bothered implementing them in the first place. If Frontier thought that getting pirated could be fun, surely the NPC pirates might be operationally capable of succeeding from time to time.

 

[Lecitron]

Video game. If reality is what you want in your games, I'm sure someone will take your 60 bucks and tell you to get to work.



You obviously don't do alot of pirating, NPC or otherwise.

But this videogame is intended to be realistic in a lot of features. Why law isn't one of them?

This game isn't wow or fallout, and even them have more punishment to criminals than we have now in elite

 

[NeilF]

An explorer is not foisting negative consequence onto other players with their gameplay.

If you explore a couple of systems before me, you'll cost me probably more than I'll ever cost you via pirating?

A bulk trader is not forcing direct negative consequences onto other players by trading.

You'll reduce stock/affect prices for me?

All these complaints about making a tiny income, by me successfully interdicting you and asking you for 10-20t of cargo amounting to what value? Or worse case using cruddy hatch breakers to get even less? Out of your X hours playtime?


Again, to put this into (sensible) context, if I add up all the value of all the cargo I've ever pirated from other players, the money I've earned from those countless hours of PvP piracy, I suspect it amounts to less than I could earn in 20 mins of trading or passenger missions or bounty hunting?

Indeed I suspect I could even earn more exploring half an hour.


And you seriously begrudge me making such rediculous amount, at the expense of a few minutes and a few thousand CRs out of tiny %age of CMDRs? Really? You're that bias?

 

[GG7]

This is the debating fallacy called 'appeal to majority'. It's usually refers to the wisdom of crowds, itself a fallacy.

The majority opinion is a Fallacy?

Okay... [rolleyes]

I guess that statement in some ways admits that those who are constantly imposing "their version" of PvP on everyone else are indeed a highly vocal minority, with little to no true impact in the actual game.

They may have a voice here on the forums, but in the game where it counts, they constitute such a tiny number of the total player base as to make their authority laughably insignificant.

If they are not on most player's Top 10 BLOCKED LIST, then the number of players who have simply chosen to switch to PGs and Solo after dealing with them and their ilk make up the remainder of their current insignificance in the big picture.

They brought all this down on themselves over the last 3 years due to non stop griefing by the majority of those who share their opinions on what constitutes acceptible gameplay within ED.

 

[NeilF]

I told you before, you want to do criminal acts without consequences.

You can sell all stuff and be relativity safe on anarchy systems, without problems. In 2 or 3 jumps you are in one.

Pirate and murder are now without penalties, if fact, legal players suffer a lot more than you.

Is the reason that a lot of players abandoned solo mode.

Ohhh! This is great... So let's set the scene here...


So, I'm questioning, if someone with a fine/bounty (a criminal?) docks at a station, if its sensible that they possibly cannot access the "criminal network" of the black market. And I'm asking this because, 1) We don't know the answer, 2) If we can't, I believe this although sort of a minor issue, in my mind has some subtle/frustrating outcomes.

Now, for this simple request - asking if someone deemed a CRIMINAL can still use basically a CRIMINAL NETWORK - you seemingly don't address the point/issue being discussed but instead make it a personal matter and descend into saying I'm somehow responsible for folks playing in solo? As if I'm somehow a toxic element, or supporting toxic activity in the game? (eg: I'm akin to a murder hobo who I'd say actually is responsible for CMDRs moving to SOLO).

Again, we're talking about me asking for clarification if a criminal is able to liaise with a criminal group?


So, are you really serious? Given my question for a simple clarification, are you really sure you wish to level that sort of summary on me, for that question? That I'm somehow responsible for toxic activity that results in individuals leaving OPEN? Please consider you answer carefully because I'd like to think you would.


ps: You're also of course happily ignoring the countless posts where I've actually suggested further/harder reaching penalties than have been proposed by FD? You've fixated on one minor point I've raised which you don't like (why?) and cashed in all your issues with C&P, on me?


This was one of your posts in question BTW:-

Players like Neil f maybe are the reason because major player population play in solo/group.

Do evil without penalties. Hilarious

 

[Roninpaul]

Anarchy systems would have more expensive prices for all things because transporting anything in anarchy will be dangerous . So pirates should be able to turn a good profit regardless of the stolen tag on the goods .

perhaps we could have an electronic device that hacks a ships computer disables the drives and jettisons the cargo that would make pirating fun and profitable

 

[Ouberos]

But this videogame is intended to be realistic in a lot of features. Why law isn't one of them?

Probably for the same reason tax isn't one of them.

A long time ago I suggested taxing traders for using the shipping lanes and making security response inside the "tax" zone very fast and heavy. I'm still wondering what the community feed back would be if Trading actually had to take a dose of reality and pay something towards the upkeep of all these security ships they send after us.

 

[Anopheles]

The majority opinion is a Fallacy?

Okay... [rolleyes]

I guess that statement in some ways admits that those who are constantly imposing "their version" of PvP on everyone else are indeed a highly vocal minority, with little to no true impact in the actual game.

They may have a voice here on the forums, but in the game where it counts, they constitute such a tiny number of the total player base as to make their authority laughably insignificant.

If they are not on most player's Top 10 BLOCKED LIST, then the number of players who have simply chosen to switch to PGs and Solo after dealing with them and their ilk make up the remainder of their current insignificance in the big picture.

They brought all this down on themselves over the last 3 years due to non stop griefing by the majority of those who share their opinions on what constitutes acceptible gameplay within ED.

Not the majority opinion but using an undefined 'majority' view as evidence for worth of the argument. Not that majority views are necessarily correct.

It's a fine distinction, but you'll work it out sport.

 

[Jukelo]

Castrating or making it close to reality?

Think about it.

It's hard to mimic reality when most of the factors that turn people into criminals in RL are absent from the game. Nobody taking to piracy does it because they lack the 'skill' to become a trader as being a pirate requires one to be a trader as well, and since it pays less the only incentive becomes, 'do it for fun'.

You can meet a need through crime, but that doesn't make crime essential, since the same need can be met with more honest trade.
It's just a badly worded advertisement.

Without trade, civilisation would fall apart.
Without crime, civilisation just gets better.
Without politicians, we get utopia.

You're not looking at it from the gameplay perspective though. No single one of the in-game activities are necessary either to get a game, except the space shooty part that was the core of the original. Should anything that isn't the space shooty bit be ignored since it's non-essential?

Why is it so ridiculous? Is playing a role ridiculous? It is the core of people's fun, at least in this game....

I didn't say that. Playing a role is just fine, but the line of reasoning that pirates should be content with "just role-playing" and "fun", only goes so far if you're not ready to apply it to all other activities as well. There's nothing qualitatively different about piracy, so why sould it be reward differently?

This is of course a valid point of view.
For some people, getting pirated is, or at least can be fun.
However, for the majority this is not the case. If it were, then we'd not have all these threads about Open being empty, or people "hiding" in Solo, or of CLogging etc, since everyone would be all happy and jolly about being pirated and/or murderhoboed.
So yeah, that's why PG and Solo exist, for those who don't feel that being a victim is fun.

I have to say, you're the second person in a few days mentioning "all these threads about Open being empty", and I'm not sure where that's coming from. But on to your point, I must point out I'm perfectly aware there's plenty of people enjoying the game in solo or in private groups, probably wisely so, because they know they wouldn't enjoy the prospect of everything Open has to offer. That's nothing new and nothing strange: these modes were added by Frontier precisely because they knew not everyone would want the full multiplayer experience, or any MP experience at all.

In any case, for realism's sake, piracy should never be as profitable as any legal career path. If the risk vs reward is to be balanced, then stolen goods should sell for approximately 0.01% of the market value, since the pirate risks about 0.01% of what a trader does in any interaction.

I strongly disagree there. This isn't a zero-sum game, what the pirate earns after cargo has been exchanged won't lessen the cost for the trader. And in fact the less the pirate earns from each ton stolen, the more cargo the pirate will need to try and make a living, increasing the risk for a violent outcome. Not that I'm particularly in favor of artificially boosting the value of stolen goods like some have suggested (and which I dread Frontier might consider). And that is of course not even mentioning that PVE and PVP piracy share the same mechanics, and what the NPC risks is obviously of no consequence...

From a (player) trader's perspective, what they risk already factors into their profits via the security rating of the system they trade in (which impacts prices, security response time and strength, and from a pve perspective pirates frequency) and how they chose to outfit their ship. A trader wishing to reduce the risk they might have to hand over cargo will fly an armed trader and/or trade in high sec, at the cost of cargo capacity/profit margins.

As for the pirate, the reward is also already balanced against what they risk, via pretty much the same factors: security rating of the system they decide to operate in (both during and outside the cargo extraction process itself), ship selection and outfitting (you wont risk much in a pure combat ship, but you'll also be crap at extracting and carrying any cargo, pirate ships must sacrifice utility and internal slots) and target selection. And of course, pirates also have to smuggle stolen cargo in, unless operating out of an anarchy which is inherently more risky and reduces your options when it comes to getting the best prices.

And as someone who has engaged in both trading and piracy (PVE and PVP) extensively, I have no problem saying piracy is definitely the one that, should be rewarded the highest, although I also wish low-sec and anarchy trading was more rewarding, both in the credits and thrills department.

An interaction I might add, that the trader didn't want in the first place.

This doesn't have much relevance, does it? We are going back to the start: although of course nobody wants to have their cargo stolen, it's something we all, as players who chose to play in Open, must consent to without reserve. As a pirate I also consent to being interdicted and brought to justice by any player fancying themselves as a wrong-righter, even though I'm crap at PVP against anything more dangerous than Type-7. And yes, that applies to any bounty I might have accrued while commiting crimes against the environment (in fact as I haven't fired a shot at another player in almost two years...)

 

[Lecitron]

Ohhh! This is great... So let's set the scene here...


So, I'm questioning, if someone with a fine/bounty (a criminal?) docks at a station, if its sensible that they possibly cannot access the "criminal network" of the black market. And I'm asking this because, 1) We don't know the answer, 2) If we can't, I believe this although sort of a minor issue, in my mind has some subtle/frustrating outcomes.

Now, for this simple request - asking if someone deemed a CRIMINAL can still use basically a CRIMINAL NETWORK - you seemingly don't address the point/issue being discussed but instead make it a personal matter and descend into saying I'm somehow responsible for folks playing in solo? As if I'm somehow a toxic element, or supporting toxic activity in the game? (eg: I'm akin to a murder hobo who I'd say actually is responsible for CMDRs moving to SOLO).

Again, we're talking about me asking for clarification if a criminal is able to liaise with a criminal group?


So, are you really serious? Given my question for a simple clarification, are you really sure you wish to level that sort of summary on me, for that question? That I'm somehow responsible for toxic activity that results in individuals leaving OPEN? Please consider you answer carefully because I'd like to think you would.


ps: You're also of course happily ignoring the countless posts where I've actually suggested further/harder reaching penalties than have been proposed by FD? You've fixated on one minor point I've raised which you don't like (why?) and cashed in all your issues with C&P, on me?


This was one of your posts in question BTW:-

Sorry for sound too rude, English is not my native language.

But with no penalties for criminal actions that oversized number of murders and other classes people don't want to play in open, and if it is going on it could be irreversible.

And sincerely, frontier new punishment system is not too negative that you believe. Remember that pirates don't have a beautiful and grateful life, Somalian pirates could be an example.

Probably for the same reason tax isn't one of them.

A long time ago I suggested taxing traders for using the shipping lanes and making security response inside the "tax" zone very fast and heavy. I'm still wondering what the community feed back would be if Trading actually had to take a dose of reality and pay something towards the upkeep of all these security ships they send after us.

It could be in a future, if I'm not wrong SC has it.