New engineers - LOVE IT

MrFailfactory

MrFailfactory
I'm positive about the changes, overall. If the new top ends are close enough, then the new system should help move things closer (in PvP) to being more about skill vs. skill, ship vs. ship, and less about module discrepancies. In other words, getting beat by the driver, and not so much by the car.

I would say though, that in my opinion, the overall success or failure of these changes rests solely on how much farming ends up being required to make good use of the Brokers. If we are able to cruise up to a Broker station and make the trades that we need the majority of the time (just from playing the game our preferred way), then this new system will work out well. If, on the other hand, we find ourselves having to farm materials the vast majority of the time, then that part at least will leave a sour taste in its wake.

I'm not sure if the current rate of material/data acquisition is up to the job, and I haven't heard any word about increases. There are some who see the new caps and think that will somehow make this all work smoothly in and of itself, but if our material incomes don't increase (and it wouldn't have to be by a lot), then I think there might be some frustrated people in the near future. The Brokers do not allow trading anything for anything, after all. On the other hand, there is a good chance that the only people who would run into this issue frequently are those who have (or want to have) many Engineered ships. Those who fly only a few ships in only a few configurations (total), will be capping/venting their materials and data soon enough.

Riôt
 
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Faybs

Faybs
TheNut said:
At worse-case, it's 5 upgrades per level, 5 levels = 25 rolls per "module". So if I want to retrofit a gunship with 7 multi-canons, that means I need to go through 175 rolls to reach my peek upgrade. And then if I want to switch to pulse lasers, it's another 175 rolls. And if I want to switch play styles and try a different upgrade, it's another 175 rolls. Then switch to fixed instead of gimbals, another 175, etc..

If you're a new player, my condolences to you. For those of you who own Horizons, my advice is to buy several of each module and do a single grade 5 upgrade right now. At least that way when the new system kicks in, it's a one time 5-rolls to max it out.

For FDev, I understand you want a better progression system here, but I think you went overboard and made it far to overwhelming. This is the kind of system where I think players will not be encouraged to experiment. They will ask for the meta and focus their playtime to achieve that. All the hard work your development team puts into providing variation in this game will essentially be thrown out the window as the time investment is just to prohibitive to experiment.
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You're forgetting about module storage, and about being able to swap modules for free. I have one set of really well engineered modules and weapons that I move from ship to ship, and a handful of others that are better than stock but I can't be bothered tweaking further. If you do something similar, you can really cut down on the grinding and slowly over time give each ship their own modules that you don't move around.
 

Faybs

Faybs
Kaocraft said:
Did you quote the wrong person? I don't see how anything you said is in disagreement with anything I said.
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I meant that I disagree about the new system cutting down on variety and experimentation. My point of view is that the current system already does that, and the new one is better in that respect (less grinding needed for better than average stats -> more people experimenting -> more variety)
 
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DMaster

DMaster
From what i have seen on the live stream, i like the aspect of applying special weapon effects by buying them. It is also nice, that they will last during further modding. But thats it, i don't like the new crafting process itself. For my playstyle, the old crafting process was better and faster for me. I will review this in the beta.
 

Dommarraa

Dommarraa
I am perfectly happy with the change, but then I was ok with the previous system. This one seems does seem better.

I too will be avoiding the forum and the moaning, so if Sandro is counting, please consider this as 100 posts in favour. I am not going to be able to persuade the whiners, so am not going to try
 

smiths121

S
Hey I think we can all agree the new system is way better than the original system. I miss the days of materials only supplying "1" not "3", some recipes requiring 3 or more of a material and level 3 or higher requiring x amount of commodities. All coupled with NPC interdictions if you were carrying cargo, as some people did like to hoard their engineering resources! I personally was OK with it, and I wonder if the difference between joe average and the min-maxers would be so great if we had stuck with the original system. I think there would have been a lot more "god roll" Grade 3s to be honest. Was a different beast.

As I have said before I quite like the new system, but I am keen to test it (no fish) in beta. I think one of the reasons the original Engineering was changed in release rather than beta, is fish meant no-one actually investigated the material collection part of the game-loop, and it was only after release it was found a large proportion of the player base was not keen on it. It would be a shame to not let the player community feedback on this new game loop in beta.

Cheers
Simon
 
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Dommarraa

Dommarraa
I am not sure a beta will demonstrate the advantages of the new system anyway with or without fish. It moves to a slow and steady upgrade process as you collect random bits. Grind is not required. If you try and test it in a few days (not many people will commit full time to testing), you will have to grind so not see the advantages
 

Noobilite

Noobilite
I didn't see the video, but did they say there would still be a way to get secondariness like maybe buying them? I keep seeing people complain it will be too powerful for everyone to have but it means if everyone can get them that there is merely customization and purposeful choice. The only thing needed to counter that is potentially more difficulty in the game or things to use it against. Meaning at minimum better or greater variation in difficulty of NPC's potentially. So they could simply implement, at minimum, greater difficulty based on area. So beginning policed area's potentially have weaker criminals, as they are kept in line, and farther away stuff can have more difficult ones in populated sectors. But more potential abilities applied to equipment means greater means to do things. One of which would be damage for fighting. The same logic could be applied to exploration as you could get other factors like cooling or things to deal with exploration tasks and they could increase the difficulty of those task and or make more of them to go against now that you can in essence assure you get equipment. So, there is now going to be more room for more solid game development as you can always work you way up in difficulty going from begging middle to end game content by grinding steadily. Just need creative things to use those stats for...

One example would be more complicated and difficult black holes. If you can get x max stat for engines and fsd they can use that to make wormholes with difficulties to explore to counter it so you have to work up to more complex situations to explore. Same with gravity on planets and other issues.(A little danger never hurt anyone! ><) Defensive stats could eventually be related to dealing with hot anomalies in space. So thermal focus could get one set of anomalies(heat based ones) while kinetic could be for asteroid showers etc.

So, technically it doesn't matter if secondariness exist. They just provide a means to add better content as they could allow greater customization to deal with more diverse and specific specialized challenges in the galaxy. That means more diverse gameplay and more potentially difficult tasks to find. So, I would say it's better they are still available to grind out and specifically choose as you wish so you can completely customize beyond the basic equipment. Then the game can develop much better reasons to get X odd equipment combination.

You could even get to the point that only x ships can do x tasks depending on stats. So even with maxed out equipment only a certain vessels or two might be able to get the most specialized tasks done. Say explorers with good heat ratings getting close enough to a sun or heat producing object to explore it at the highest levels of the game for the most intense explorable up close solar objects. Those could be for max difficulty objects for challenges to players. Just have to make it so it is a challenge even then. 8) And as long as everyone can buy the ships it's not really a big deal. You just change ships or have a means to take it with you. Like possibly the new fleet carriers if they can carry your equipment like that. Then tasks are more about preparation and work and less about random chance.

It could be cool to have highly specialized exploration fleets running around trying to discover things. You could bring mining equipment and everything needed to go for indefinite journeys and explore as much as possible.
 
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Chris Simon

Chris Simon
AndyJ said:
If you want a level playing field then why can't you all just form a private group, jump into stock ships and have-at-it?
This is pretty much the advice everyone else is force-fed by certain sections of the "PvP" community when the rest of us don't want to play the game in the same way.

No let's get FD to trash engineering instead, making it even grindier for the average player to get a good build ... more seals for the clubbing is my prediction.
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Uhm. I have nothing to do with PvP. And I've never killed another commander. So cut the accusations, please. I just said that I'm glad PvPers aren't the ones who complain for once.
I think you could use a cold shower.
 

2Karl

2Karl
Chris Simon said:
I really don't understand what exactly it is people are complaining about, right now. But I haven't heard many complaints from PvPers (at least from those I know). I certainly hope true PvPers rejoice that there will be some kind of level(ish) playing field, once more.
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It's actually making me consider trying some pvp
 

racer1

racer1
I also like the new engineers plans with greatly reduced RNG and materials broker.

I don't really see why we have to go g1 -> g5 for every module but I still believe the top end mods will take far less time in the new system and am hopeful that the lower grade progression will be a non event from mats I have collected along the way.
 

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
smiths121 said:
Hey I think we can all agree the new system is way better than the original system. I miss the days of materials only supplying "1" not "3", some recipes requiring 3 or more of a material and level 3 or higher requiring x amount of commodities. All coupled with NPC interdictions if you were carrying cargo, as some people did like to hoard their engineering resources! I personally was OK with it, and I wonder if the difference between joe average and the min-maxers would be so great if we had stuck with the original system. I think there would have been a lot more "god roll" Grade 3s to be honest. Was a different beast.

As I have said before I quite like the new system, but I am keen to test it (no fish) in beta. I think one of the reasons the original Engineering was changed in release rather than beta, is fish meant no-one actually investigated the material collection part of the game-loop, and it was only after release it was found a large proportion of the player base was not keen on it. It would be a shame to not let the player community feedback on this new game loop in beta.

Cheers
Simon
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i dunno... unless material collection has changed massively, i would suggest one important part of beta will be the job the seasoned PvPers have, testing their god rolled grandfathered gear against high end G5 rolls in the new system... and to do that, the engineering needs to be accelerated.

but it could be we get all the above.... have FD stated how long beta will last? there could be multiple iterations of beta with different rules.
 

Joghiarus

Joghiarus
Overall I'm happy with the changes. I do wish they would have changed the grade-rating from engineer to blueprint though instead of module. That way you could 're-use' a blueprint on different ships or modules once you have reached tier 5 of that blueprint.
 

Noobilite

Noobilite
It's not about being strong. The mechanics are wrong. The only way to make that type of diversity the right way it to add mass realistic material knowledge and real world level customization via real engineering and customization... Then you can let those who know enough do better than those who don't(or simply a wider array of things to choose from and design.). Randomness in engineering outside of maybe metal fatigue or things that aren't completely controllable is not really a good thing. Working up from the ground up is not a bad thing to start with compared to RNG schemes. They can always make it more complex and realistic later to get more aspects in the game later(Either breadth or depth.). That would get closer to wider diversity as you progress. And properly it can just create more variation via a wider array of specialized ship types for even broader tasks or strategies. Nothing about real engineering implies randomness when you pay for something. Unless you don't know what you are paying for and you get ripped off because you don't know if the guy is legit or knowledgeable. And that is probably more likely in non hard engineering work. Like care repair guys. Although I guess they are potentially those equivalents. But then it's implied they are stealing from you and doing crappy work on purpose. You should technically be able to pay past that if you want.
 
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h347h

h347h
Chris Simon said:
I really don't understand what exactly it is people are complaining about, right now. But I haven't heard many complaints from PvPers (at least from those I know). I certainly hope true PvPers rejoice that there will be some kind of level(ish) playing field, once more.
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PvP in open has never been balanced. If you want balanced PvP play CQC. Open PvP has been a joke the whole time.
 

Noobilite

Noobilite
If they wanted to add things like secondaries back. They could simply make them buyable but start adding time restraints. Say a tier 5 maxed out module takes 1 full real week for the engineer to add a maxed out secondary. Then you can slowly build up your ships to what you want and have full customization. I don't see how it would hurt. If anything, if it's too strong just make NPC and non PVP content harder to match. Or at least parts of it. Make several maximum difficulty areas so people can work their way out to it. More variation in game content is always a good thing. Make some hard wormholes that take maxed out defenses to get close enough to etc. then things at all levels get a use.
 
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