Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

Ultimately, Elite is completely pointless - I can't put it on my resume, I don't get paid for playing, it won't get me into the astronaut program, and it won't do my any good if I were to go to flight school.

Not true. I get massive props from blokes and admiring looks from all the chicks when I tell them about my huge secondary on my thruster of my fake space ship in a computer game. Its hard work, but totally worth it in the end. My time has been respected. When I worked in geriatry as a neuropsychologist people told me their biggest regret in life was not being more like me by playing more computer games. :D
 
Best of it's abilities? You buy a new ship as a shell, not as a complete package. Let's flip things around towards another real-world situation (the following story is fictional by the way).

I buy a new computer, the case it comes in has all the stuff I want. Plenty of space for HDDs and SSDs, E-ATX compatibility, dual PSU slots, spare PCI backplates for riser cards, plenty of internal capacity for watercooling or even phase change cooling and it looks really snazzy. Unfortunately, despite that potential, it's not a very good computer, the barebones internals supplied with the case are barely enough to class it as a functioning computer, let alone the best possible machine that can fit into the case.

The next step is quite simple, I upgrade the computer to the limits of conventionally available technology. I shop around, visit a few places and eventually stock up on the best hardware that is available at retail. Comes at a pretty price, but it provides a massive increase over the factory original internals that my computer came with. This overall doesn't take too long though, just an evenings work checking a few retailers to get the best I can. As I'm testing the components, I start looking into the diagnostics and the firmware controls, and despite it being the best I could find on the common market, there's probably more that can be done with my new maxed-out hardware; I guess I'll have to send some emails out and make some phone calls to some specialists to see if I can get more out of my hardware.

Working through an entire chain of contacts, I manage to get in touch with a former overclocking champion. He looks at my hardware but sees that I'll need to get some replacement subcomponents for him to work with, those standard capacitors won't do the job properly, plus I'll need to upgrade my cooling systems significantly; to make matters worse, he informs me that he only really works with RAM, to make the most of my computer requires me to speak to specialists for every single type of component.

Fast forward 6 months, where half the components on each of my boards have been replaced with specialist models, including cherry picking them off high-end production lines for optimum performance, I'm in regular contact with both numerous overclocking champions as well as industry specialists (including a few unofficial informers working for the manufacturers who helped me illegally to jailbreak parts of the processors to optimise performance further) to make the most of what I've got. I've travelled the entire world, I've bribed, blackmailed and seduced my way into every relevant technical field, I've had everything in my computer scanned and modified by the greatest machinery and minds the world has to offer; the story behind my quest for making the most behind my computer would make a great novel. My computer has a whole phase change cascade cooling loop, I'm running the computer through a whole bank of UPS systems to provide stable input voltage and the voltages provided to each and every single component are hair-raisingly scary, but I finally have the best version of my computer possible.

Was it worth it? It's higher performance, if not the best possible performance, so it might have been. However, seeking performance so far above and beyond what is normal is a quickfire way to waste a huge amount of time, and should not be for everyone. Sure, I get into the rankings, I beat everyone else on the benchmarks and get crazy framerates even at the highest resolutions known to man,; the question though is about whether it was worth it. Such maddening extremes aren't for everyone, most people are better off just going for the standard off-the-shelf stuff, possibly with a tweak or two to improve performance.

Long story short - if you want performance then you had better be prepared to put the effort in to achieve it. Engineers are not perfect (which is largely why they are changing them to be gradual increases in stats rather than a gambling machine that requires 1000s of materials), but getting into the mindset of "I need to do this in order to have fun" is not a healthy way of thinking about things. Do things as normal, visit engineers when you are in the area or whenever you are getting full of rare materials and then profit over time. Think of them as a period of settling into a new ship, not a 6+ hour grind before using a ship.
 
Much bed wetting by the OP. Supporting false premises with poor analogies and assumptions.

I was able to gather mats (from a starting count of zero) to produce G5 long range mods for FSDs, each capable of giving my anaconda a 60+ly range, in less than two hours, in 2.4. (Around 56% OM)

Not the same for everyone, but none of my modules have required more effort than those. Hardly a wall.
 
<snip>Now lets look at Elite. <snip>

Great post, which captures the frustrations of the majority I feel.

I think it just comes down to whether or not you're happy just pootling around ad nausuem, or would rather your assets be competitive in game.

If the latter, then yes, grind locks and terrible game design galore awaits.
 
Last edited:
Engineers foster burnout and frustration by introducing a wait wall between the acquisition of a ship, and the ship's ability to live up to its full potential.when I deem said ship sufficiently awesome for me to deign to play with it.

FTFY. Meh totally self-imposed suffering. Game was fine before engineers, game is fine after engineers. If the people in Open are ats then leave Open and join in the pressure on FDev to sort the imbalances out - don't suffer through some process that's going to burn you out just because of some kids in Open with too much time on their hands. They don't control you or tell you how to play.
 
It's only a grind if you actually do it.

The how counts too. Think of any game with an open-ish world where you can collect powerup items - you can find those as you go along and enjoy each perk as it comes enjoying the game content the whole time, or you can run around collecting all of those before you start playing the action missions and content - by the time you get to just playing you've seen most of the map and gotten used to looking at it as just mechanics and things to play to get the bonuses.
 
Can we get the condensed version?

TL;DR: Engineering sucks.


Gotta say, although I'm not as cynical about it as the OP, I probably share a lot of the misgivings.

In a nutshell, the primary reason why engineering is good is because it allows you to customise your ship.
You can take a ship like, say, an AspX and turn it into a feather-light explorer with a 60Ly jump-range or you can turn it into a mini-battleship.
You achieve some of that via module choice but the majority of it comes from engineering.
That creates personal choice and adds diversity to the gameplay.

Secondary to this, but probably important to the dev's, it adds gameplay.
You can't just type stuff into EDDB, go on a trolley-dash and end up with a finished ship in 15 minutes.
Like it or not, you've got to fly around in your ships and do stuff to upgrade it and, although it can help, sites like EDDB can't tell you exactly what you need to do.

However...

I don't think the dev's quite understand human nature when it comes to this new system.
The idea of having to "level-up" modules is fundamentally flawed because, in conjunction with the mat-trader, it's utterly avoidable.
If you want to just swing by an engineer and see what they can do for you, that's fine.
If you are determined to obtain a G5 upgrade immediately, however, all you need to do is collect up a couple of extra G5 mat's and trade them for all the intermediate mat's you'll need the next time you're at a mat-trader.

Given that we'll have individual allocations for each mat', people are always going to have high-tier mat's which they never actually use for upgrades.
With the new system, those mat's will simply become the "currency" we use to "buy" our way through the "level-up" process immediately.
 
Last week I ran some missions from some Mafia group to be friendly, delivered some landmines, and leveled up useless missile upgrades from Liz to get an invite for another engineer. Ok no big deal.

So I had to deliver some tobacco about five jumps from a station, but I could only bring 9 tobacco for some reason, so it took about 10 jumps total for one run and I had to make about 5 runs to unlock that engineer. (50 jumps for all you math majors out there). Hurray! I unlocked that engineer. Except I didn't want anything from that engineer so I spent some mats to upgrade something oh well...The engineer I wanted is now unlocked!

Ok So Fujin system is in retreat/none state and only selling me 5 teas. I need 50...10 runs? 5/6 jumps? 100+ jumps? Holy CRAP! So now i've spent all week just mission running for Fujin to get it into a boom state so I don't waste so much time delivering so little tea...to finally get the engineer I need for grade 5 beams...and I still probably need to farm the mats I need for the rolls.

^^ Basically everything i've done the past week to roll on a beam laser for my FDL...and I still don't have it.

The good news is that the engineers stay unlocked so It's not like I wasted my time getting these engineers. But the whole undertaking of getting a nicer beam has been pretty extreme. I haven't done anything else in the game all week.
 
The how counts too. Think of any game with an open-ish world where you can collect powerup items - you can find those as you go along and enjoy each perk as it comes enjoying the game content the whole time, or you can run around collecting all of those before you start playing the action missions and content - by the time you get to just playing you've seen most of the map and gotten used to looking at it as just mechanics and things to play to get the bonuses.

As usual, I was being cheeky.

"Grind" is, as so many things, in the eye of the beholder. Being able to finish everything in the game in a few hours, for example, would likely not be any more satisfying than grinding out modules for days on end, or anything else, for that matter.

And, of course, everything is ultimately optional.

Keeping Elite: Dangerous open-ended without being boring is an incredibly challenging balancing act, which Frontier achieves with varying degrees of success. In pointing out what we like and don't like, we're hopefully helping them to dial it all in.

Which, in my case, at least, leads to a much more challenging conundrum: figuring out what I actually like and don't like. It seems to change not only from day to day, but from moment to moment.

So far, I've only been able to narrow it down to...

FRONTIER, ENTERTAIN ME!!! [praise]
 
TL;DR: Engineering sucks.


Gotta say, although I'm not as cynical about it as the OP, I probably share a lot of the misgivings.

In a nutshell, the primary reason why engineering is good is because it allows you to customise your ship.
You can take a ship like, say, an AspX and turn it into a feather-light explorer with a 60Ly jump-range or you can turn it into a mini-battleship.
You achieve some of that via module choice but the majority of it comes from engineering.
That creates personal choice and adds diversity to the gameplay.

Secondary to this, but probably important to the dev's, it adds gameplay.
You can't just type stuff into EDDB, go on a trolley-dash and end up with a finished ship in 15 minutes.
Like it or not, you've got to fly around in your ships and do stuff to upgrade it and, although it can help, sites like EDDB can't tell you exactly what you need to do.

However...

I don't think the dev's quite understand human nature when it comes to this new system.
The idea of having to "level-up" modules is fundamentally flawed because, in conjunction with the mat-trader, it's utterly avoidable.
If you want to just swing by an engineer and see what they can do for you, that's fine.
If you are determined to obtain a G5 upgrade immediately, however, all you need to do is collect up a couple of extra G5 mat's and trade them for all the intermediate mat's you'll need the next time you're at a mat-trader.

Given that we'll have individual allocations for each mat', people are always going to have high-tier mat's which they never actually use for upgrades.
With the new system, those mat's will simply become the "currency" we use to "buy" our way through the "level-up" process immediately.

While I agree with you, I think that's fine for experienced players. But for people just starting out, it will be a much more pleasant experience with progression. After a while they will become experienced and will be able to upgrade their modules faster. I think that is perfectly reasonable.
 
I feel with the OP. When engineers came out in 2.1 I quit the game for months. I had finally build my fleet, and now I had to do it all over again, because I too get most enjoyment in the game by flying ships that excel at their given task to the best of their ability. My legacy ships will still function pretty well, but if I want to have the best tools in the shed, I have get to work yet again. The real problem is though, once you're through the grind and have the fleet back where you want it, you still have no game left to play. ED minus grind is no game.
 
I feel with the OP. When engineers came out in 2.1 I quit the game for months. I had finally build my fleet, and now I had to do it all over again, because I too get most enjoyment in the game by flying ships that excel at their given task to the best of their ability. My legacy ships will still function pretty well, but if I want to have the best tools in the shed, I have get to work yet again. The real problem is though, once you're through the grind and have the fleet back where you want it, you still have no game left to play. ED minus grind is no game.

I seem to be able to play the game just fine without grinding for anything.
 
I have enjoyed a lot of the engineering process, it has given me other goals and things to focus on when I lack self motivation to 'blaze my own trail'.
The still remaining weak areas are rare unlocks for engineers, this should be a list of rare goods obtainable without having to wait, rather than 50 cigars maybe 3 or this and 4 of that.

Most low and mid tier materials spawn so commonly now it takes no time to collect them. But the high grade USS are the worst mechanic they feel like RNG , I could spend a lot of time fighting ships or attacking bases bit flying in deep space waiting for the right USS to spawn is poor design, but they want them to be rare.

But I do love the feel of my ships getting modded, they do feel insanely powerful after you manage to work up to grade 5 rolls. I think if Elite was a single player game then we wouldn't mind slowly upgrading ships but with forums and meta builds, youtube videos showing min/max solutions we can feel like there is no point having a non engineered ship. But in reality apart from combat you don't need any mods, its up to you.
 
Trouble is, OP is right and his arguments are very reasonable. The fact some people enjoy it doesn't negate the fact that some don't and those people are being driven from the game.

I was encouraging my cousin to play ED the other day and he asked "it's just a big time sink isn't it?". I had to be honest and say yes, but you can avoid that stuff and went on to sell the galaxy recreation, the graphics and the sound. He was interested but I doubt he will play. Engineers is too much of a time sink for those of us with not much time. FD clearly see them as the panacea to all of EDs issues and so, day by day, the feeling that they are mandatory increases.
 
Last edited:
Amazing analysis OP.... just totally missing one teensy tiny point.

Our ships were performing just fine before engineers, and still perform just fine without engineers, at least for PvE.

Engineers, like many things in games, provide a reward for effort put in. The effort is rewarded with a permanent boost to one of your ships. I see no problem here, and the new system, while i liked the old gambling system, has done a lot to address some of the issues with the old system.

FD obviously expect a certain amount of overall effort from engineers to achieve various goals. If they wanted to make it quicker and easier, they would. Since they don't, they have set out their stall and said "this is how much effort we want you to put in". You might not like it, fair enough. You might prefer a different way of getting the rewards, but presumably if it were to change, it would still require effort.

In short, FD aren't likely to make it too easy to get what you want.
 
Back
Top Bottom