Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

[Imgran]

Amazing analysis OP.... just totally missing one teensy tiny point.

Our ships were performing just fine before engineers, and still perform just fine without engineers, at least for PvE.

Engineers, like many things in games, provide a reward for effort put in. The effort is rewarded with a permanent boost to one of your ships. I see no problem here, and the new system, while i liked the old gambling system, has done a lot to address some of the issues with the old system.

FD obviously expect a certain amount of overall effort from engineers to achieve various goals. If they wanted to make it quicker and easier, they would. Since they don't, they have set out their stall and said "this is how much effort we want you to put in". You might not like it, fair enough. You might prefer a different way of getting the rewards, but presumably if it were to change, it would still require effort.

In short, FD aren't likely to make it too easy to get what you want.

I don't want it easy. What I want is a reduction in the pointless busywork.


Many of the requirements for the early Engineers are pretty reasonable, and some of the later ones are actually fine for what they offer, But a few of the Engineer unlocks are torture, and not the good kind.

The worst kind of grind is the grind where you're arbitrarily restricted by game mechanics from using optimim strategies

Fujin tea is literally Satan because of this. Not only is the quantity available tiny, meaning there's no way to power grind it, but the requirements have you doing it multiple times.

And it's not an issue just because it's grindy, although that's a problem. The problem is that it is uncreative. the only way to accomplish these tasks is to do it *exactly* as intended. There is no available strategy to leverage or improve your odds of success or reduce the time required, other than just have a good FSD so you can make fewer jumps. There's no way to "solve" the problem, more and that's actually a pretty huge problem in a freestyle game. It should never be necessary to solve any problem in Elite: Dangerous exactly one way and one way only.

The problem is that these actions are simply not interesting. These quests exist for no other reason than to gate off the content behind something repetitive simply to pad the content of the game out a bit and make it take a little more time to see everything in the game -- it's lazy and doesn't really add anything but drudgery to the game.

Inserting this kind of mechanic also the sign of a game designer who is not confident at all in either the quality or the quantity, or both, of the content their game offers. Not a great look there.

. I called this style of mechanic a "busywork gate" earlier and busywork gating is not just bad game design, it's actually dangerous to infest a game with busywork gates if you want it to be a long term seller.

The distinction between grind and busywork gating I used in my post on page 1 is pretty apt. Grind is the things you decide to do that get you where you want to go. Busywork gates are the things you can't avoid doing that you nonetheles are forced to do in order to get to the point where you can grind.

Busywork basically grind squared especially in terms of raw frustration in getting stuck doing them for a relatively extended period of time. At least grind moves you forward, the sense that a busywork gate has you moving sideways makes it far less tolerable. This kind of mechanic should be used very sparingly in game design because they're a huge turnoff, especially in a game where the grinding process is already nontrivial.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

By the time you had written out that essay, you could have collected all the mats you wanted. What a waste of time and effort.

Are you saying that his points are invalid Max - or just being you and passing judgement without giving it any thought.

Yes he's saying what so many others have said, but a lot of it needs repeating. Too many of the ships have no real purpose other than "bigger" or "slightly different, but if you use engineers it can be whatever you want".

The engineers was a way of introducing player chosen speciality - and OK I get how that can be a good thing, but most ships would benefit from having specialist stats from the start and engineering should be more like a a place to get that last extra bit - the way AMG does with Mercedes cars.

What engineers should never have been was the ability to turn a humdrum middle of the road ship into something that can easily kill a ship that was meant to have better combat characteristics on the basic model. An averagely tuned type 9 can easily kill a stock FDL "god rolls" were not even necessary.

Take out the PvP equation and you can play the game and undertake any of the various "professions" and I use that term very loosely in pretty much every ship to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I don't want it easy. What I want is a reduction in the pointless busywork.


Many of the requirements for the early Engineers are pretty reasonable, and some of the later ones are actually fine for what they offer, But a few of the Engineer unlocks are torture, and not the good kind.

The worst kind of grind is the grind where you're arbitrarily restricted by game mechanics from using optimim strategies

Fujin tea is literally Satan because of this. Not only is the quantity available tiny, meaning there's no way to power grind it, but the requirements have you doing it multiple times.

And it's not an issue just because it's grindy, although that's a problem. The problem is that it is uncreative. the only way to accomplish these tasks is to do it *exactly* as intended. There is no available strategy to leverage or improve your odds of success or reduce the time required, other than just have a good FSD so you can make fewer jumps. There's no way to "solve" the problem, more and that's actually a pretty huge problem in a freestyle game. It should never be necessary to solve any problem in Elite: Dangerous exactly one way and one way only.

The problem is that these actions are simply not interesting. These quests exist for no other reason than to gate off the content behind something repetitive simply to pad the content of the game out a bit and make it take a little more time to see everything in the game -- it's lazy and doesn't really add anything but drudgery to the game.

Inserting this kind of mechanic also the sign of a game designer who is not confident at all in either the quality or the quantity, or both, of the content their game offers. Not a great look there.

. I called this style of mechanic a "busywork gate" earlier and busywork gating is not just bad game design, it's actually dangerous to infest a game with busywork gates if you want it to be a long term seller.

The distinction between grind and busywork gating I used in my post on page 1 is pretty apt. Grind is the things you decide to do that get you where you want to go. Busywork gates are the things you can't avoid doing that you nonetheles are forced to do in order to get to the point where you can grind.

Busywork basically grind squared especially in terms of raw frustration in getting stuck doing them for a relatively extended period of time. At least grind moves you forward, the sense that a busywork gate has you moving sideways makes it far less tolerable. This kind of mechanic should be used very sparingly in game design because they're a huge turnoff, especially in a game where the grinding process is already nontrivial.

Looks like you do not know your definitions. What you describe as busy work is actually called grind. What you think grind is, I am not sure as you say the grind can be fun. I disagree. If it's fun, it isn't grind.

But I disagree with your original post too. It's all about choices. I have hardly engineered any of my ships, but when I did, trading felt no different at all and the same with exploration. None of them are needed, so if you want them you can slowly upgrade them bits and pieces. None of the engineering is needed for trade or exploration.

I really see no issues here. Also the busy work (grind) as you call it is already reduced with the materials brokers. Unless you call using them busy work which In would also disagree with as using them is also a choice.

Most things in the game is about choice. Also find the most efficient way of doing something may not be the most fun way either. Often it's not. A bit like hiking, I love It, but it is far more efficient to use the car.

 

[nexxo]

TL;DR:

 

[Susanna]

Imagine for a moment you intend to purchase a high performance sports car. Or perhaps a truck that specializes in hauling heavy loads, or long hauling, perhaps for your fleet.

You purchase the vehicle. But it still requires modifications in order to fill its specific role to the best of its abilities. That is worth emphasizing here: You desire for the vehicle in question to perform its task not in a manner sufficient to the requirements of the job, but rather, to the best of the vehicle's abilities. Meeting the requirements is neither what you want from this vehicle, nor what you require of it. If it were, you would simply purchase the vehicle, and begin using it for its allotted task immediately, without modification.

So, you set up a time for have these modifications performed. Maybe you need nitrus and racing slicks, and changes to gear ratios and engine tuning. Perhaps you need a heavy duty trailer hitch, hook ups for refrigerated trailers or larger or auxiliary fuel tanks for long hauling. So you set up the appointment, drop the vehicle off, have the adjustments made, and put the vehicle into use a day, or a week, later, with minimal inconvenience to you, your fleet or other responsibilities. Because responsible business owners who care about their customers and repeat business understand the 3/11 rule, and know that WASTING THEIR CUSTOMERS TIME, is a BAD IDEA.

Now lets look at Elite.

I buy, say, An Asp Explorer. Or an Imperial Courier, for small ship combat or bounty hunting with some light USS Mat salvaging while I am out and about. No problem. While a rather ridiculous and overly gamey system in and of itself, once the ship is A Rated (usually possible at the station where the purchase was made, at least for small and medium ships) the ship is prepared to perform its role in a manner that fits the requirements of the job.

The ship is not, in any way, shape or form, however, ready to perform its allotted task to the best of its abilities.

For that, we need Engineering. And since I purchase this ship explicitly because I wanted a vessel that would perform its tasks to the best of its abilities, as opposed to simply meeting the requirements for the job...I need to Engineer this ship. Whether I WANT to do so or not is now irrelevant; if I desire for the ship to maximize the efficiency with which it can perform its allotted task - whatever that task might be - Engineering is now mandatory.

Which means I now need to spend time prospecting. Whether I enjoy it or not is irrelevant; it is, according to the above criteria, a requirement. Whether this fosters burnout in me, and makes me want to leave the game completely, doesnt matter. I cannot have a ship that lives up to its full potential without doing this. And the same goes for USS Salvage (which I, personally, somewhat enjoy, especially with the varied wrecks and debris types). The same goes for various mission types. Regardless of how much I enjoy a task in Elite - or whether I enjoy it at all - I now have to perform every task in the game. Otherwise, no ship I purchase will ever live up to its full potential.

But not only must I perform every task in the game, regardless or burnout or enjoyment. I must also spend time unlocking various engineers. That the unlock requirements for many engineers set a gold standard for boredom inducing tedium not only in Elite but in all of modern video gaming doesnt matter. That Kamitra Cigars alone are an intelligence insulting time gate is irrelevant. If I want a ship - any ship - to live up to its maximum potential, I have to partake of this ironically named "content" now.

And once that bit of tedium is out of the way, I still need to travel round to every single Engineer individually, rolling what upgrades I can get. This alone can take a day, or more. Not the entire grind listed above, mind. Just the flying around to each location part, and rolling upgrades.

On the up side, once all of this is done, I finally have a ship - one ship, that is; just one - that can perform its allotted task to the best of its ability. That can maximize the efficiency with which I can utilize that ship. That makes me feel as if I am not missing out on things I could accomplish with that ship. Provided I still derive any enjoyment from Elite at all, at this point - and there's a fair chance I dont, after being forced to partake of game content I dont like, for countless hours, in order to unlock game content I DO enjoy - I am now ready to put my new ship to use.

Of course, if I ever want to buy another ship...I will need to do almost all of this all over again. Every single time wasting, step - except, thank god, the initial unlocking of Engineers. But all of those other layers of tedium remain. Especially - and this is key, since the Beta isnt doing anything to change it - the RNG Mat grind. This alone can take days, or even weeks, for G5 min/maxers (which, thankfully, I have decided I am not, after all, going to become; I can live without SOME potential).

Does FDEV really believe that literally wasting your customers' time is a good idea? That this will foster positive feelings - and, more importantly, positive reviews and repeat purchases of game content? Of course it wont. Which is why roughly 50% of those who try the game, never leave a Sidewinder, and why a very, very large percentage of the install base is no longer playing the game. Because FDEV would rather waste our time, then help us enjoy it.

There are, of course, counter-arguments to this viewpoint. Chief among them: Engineers are something FDEV intended you to do gradually, over time.

Lets put that flawed theory to rest right now: Engineering a ship gradually, over time, makes little to no sense. You want a new ship to live up to its potential immediately. Right away. This being the case, then...why would you just take your time, and make your modifications slowly? You dont buy a new race car and wait six weeks to tune the transmission for track time, and four more weeks to add slicks. You dont buy a new long haul truck, start using it, and then wait six weeks to add the auxiliary fuel tanks. Why in the world would you buy a new combat or hauling vessel, and then wait days, or weeks, to modify the ship, all the while subjecting yourself to an experience that is strictly subpar to the one on offer?

Most people wouldn't. Which is why I suspect a lot of people attempt to make all of their modifications to a new ship almost immediately after buying it. Which is abject tedium, and, I suspect, fosters burnout, especially in newer players who change ships fairly often. Which they must, because multi-role in this game isnt half so good at multiple roles as FDEV seem to think.

Another argument against my view is "its, like, your opinion, man." Well of course it is. Move along, please.

I think FDEV need to take a long, hard look at the role they intend Engineers to fill in this game.

If its progression, its a very, very bad implementation of progression. The RNG mat drops - even with a broker that just adds more loading screens between modifying a ship and actually playing the game our way with it - does not allow a player to plan, or work proactively toward goals. Its just gambling. Flying through systems or driving across dirt and rolling dice is neither compelling game play, nor worthy of a triple A space sim.

If the Engineers represent End Game Content the implementation is even worse. The signal sent with this claim is that "grinding RNG is the End Game." Yeah. That will retain players looking for an immersive space sim. Players who were told by that recent PS4 ad to "Build Your Own Empire" are definitely looking to log in and gamble on random material drops instead. Sure. That's why the game was so massively, headline grabbingly successful on that platform...oh, wait...

FDEV need to consider the role they want Engineers to play. Honestly, I dont think they have any business as a Feature Mechanic. I dont think they ever did have. I have always thought that the less time we spend waiting, watching and staring at menus, the more time we can spend in our ships, flying, hauling, fighting, exploring...playing the game.

Engineers puts a serious dent in time spent actually playing. And even that pales in comparison to the dent it puts in the time spent Playing Our Way. And in that regard, Engineers, in their current implementation - even with the adjustments underway in the Beta - are far more detrimental to the game, and those who want to play it, than they are helpful.

We came here to play. To blaze our own trail. Play our way. And now the Engineers are leaving us with a binary choice: Either play the way you are told to play...or miss out on content. Neither of these is an acceptable choice, to your customer base. Neither of these is a wise choice, as a business that cares about customers and repeat business.

The Engineers should not subtract from time spent playing the game in the roles and ways we see fit. And until real, quality adjustments are made that support this, they remain a detrimental burden to the game for a whole lot of players.

You really do need a TL;DR

 

[nexxo]

Please see summary above your post. ^^^

 

[Nazdakka]

My takeaway: FDev designed the engineering system with the idea of gradual progression from OK ship to good ship to great ship.

This isn't how people play the game. Most people go straight to G5.

The new system tries to force us to play the designers' way.

Given the expectations that have been build, I don't think it will succeed.

 

[Dagwit]

My takeaway: FDev designed the engineering system with the idea of gradual progression from OK ship to good ship to great ship.

This isn't how people play the game. Most people go straight to G5.

The new system tries to force us to play the designers' way.

Given the expectations that have been build, I don't think it will succeed.

In allowing us to pin all five grades of blueprint at once, the game designers have essentially conceded that their attempt to lead us down the road of gradual progression hasn't made it out of the starting gate.

 

[Sylveria]

You know what bugs me most about the "time grind wall" with the leveling of each and every module continuously?

If you've leveled the Engineer to Grade 5- do they "all of a sudden up and forget how to improve modules", thus making the reason for doing it repetitively necessary again?

If you've educated yourself and earn a Master's or Doctorate- do you all of a sudden have to go back to a University to re-educate yourself all over again to obtain a new employment contract?

If you get a new car, does your mechanic have to learn how to work on a vehicle from scratch just to tune up your engine?

Seriously, Sandro? How does this bring "relevance" to the Engineering ranks/grades?

 

[frostypaw]

Yeah they should have been more hard-headed and stuck to their guns - kept the mat drops low, returned commodities and stop listening to the grinding madmen ESPECIALLY the PvP community who aren't faintly playing the same game as the rest of us.

Unless you're engaging in their madness there's no need whatsoever and very little if any pressure to rush to G5. Sadly this gave those obsessed with competing the opportunity to 'win' by investing more time and grind to rush though as the benefits were so high - leaving those who wanted to fight them with no choice.

Failure on two counts - mods too OP to be ignored, and lack of recognition of the two different games being played in their game.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Are you saying that his points are invalid Max - or just being you and passing judgement without giving it any thought.

Yes he's saying what so many others have said, but a lot of it needs repeating. Too many of the ships have no real purpose other than "bigger" or "slightly different, but if you use engineers it can be whatever you want".

The engineers was a way of introducing player chosen speciality - and OK I get how that can be a good thing, but most ships would benefit from having specialist stats from the start and engineering should be more like a a place to get that last extra bit - the way AMG does with Mercedes cars.

What engineers should never have been was the ability to turn a humdrum middle of the road ship into something that can easily kill a ship that was meant to have better combat characteristics on the basic model. An averagely tuned type 9 can easily kill a stock FDL "god rolls" were not even necessary.

Take out the PvP equation and you can play the game and undertake any of the various "professions" and I use that term very loosely in pretty much every ship to a greater or lesser extent.

I read his cut down version and he doesn't seem to be saying that at all. As to engineering it was badly implemented from the beginning, but as they cannot go back now they are making it as best as they can. I think the new version is far superior to the old, but it isn't perfect because of the earlier poor implementation.

Personally I think engineering should have been more side grades with maybe a tiny amount of upgrade. But it is too late for that.

 

[Sylveria]

I read his cut down version and he doesn't seem to be saying that at all. As to engineering it was badly implemented from the beginning, but as they cannot go back now they are making it as best as they can. I think the new version is far superior to the old, but it isn't perfect because of the earlier poor implementation.

Personally I think engineering should have been more side grades with maybe a tiny amount of upgrade. But it is too late for that.

It should have also been added to the BASE game instead of Horizons to begin with, too- as it affects balance with all players in multiplayer.

Yes, I own Horizons... and have even before Engineers was released and completely agree with non-Horizons owners in this point.

 

[Imgran]

The new system tries to force us to play the designers' way.

EXACTLY.

That right there is the very core of the problem. And it's a huge problem in my mind that will reduce the potential of this excellent game. There should never be only 1 way to play any feature of Elite: dangerous. If you try to force people into one way to play they will find ways to break your game and play the way they want to. If you stop them from doing that, they will leave.

It's OK to have one optimum style of gameplay. It's never OK to force players down one thought process or one development track, in an open world game. If you're going to force people to do the game your way, you have to sell the game on brilliant narrative or interesting gameplay mechanics or something else that captures their imagination, and put together a tightly scripted production that makes the way you have to play fun for people.

But even that won't work in Elite: Dangerous because the whole selling point of the game the freedom to play however you want. it's not a compatible thought process with the state of where the game is right now. We need more freedom to Engineer our way, not less. And if we have to do the ad hoc grind, at LEAST instead of forcing us to go to exactly one place in the entire galaxy for G5 mods, let us buy blueprints from Engineers and engineer our ships at our own time and in our own place.

 

[frostypaw]

EXACTLY.

That right there is the very core of the problem. And it's a huge problem in my mind that will reduce the potential of this excellent game. There should never be only 1 way to play any feature of Elite: dangerous. If you try to force people into one way to play they will find ways to break your game and play the way they want to. If you stop them from doing that, they will leave.

Meh - let those people leave. The people who try and exploit and break it like that aren't really an asset - a few for QA/bug finding perhaps but what you describe isn't helpful in a game's community.

But even that won't work in Elite: Dangerous because the whole selling point of the game the freedom to play however you want.

Was it? Is this part of the disconnect? For me it was it being a remake of old Elite with modern graphics and features, with a full scale replica of our galaxy. Always accepted I'd have to play within the game's systems but there's this ongoing thread of people who seem to genuinely think it should have everything moulded to them, and simultaneously everyone else.

Just not very familiar with games letting you do whatever and no matter what giving you everything. There are always hoops to jump through - that's the game.

 

[babelfisch]

It should have also been added to the BASE game instead of Horizons to begin with, too- as it affects balance with all players in multiplayer.

Yes, I own Horizons... and have even before Engineers was released and completely agree with non-Horizons owners in this point.

Everyone who doesn't own Horizons should be locked out and banned from the game. I hope frontier stops supporting the parasites soon.
Well I am not entirely serious, especially not in calling people parasites. But you get the idea.

 

[Sylveria]

Everyone who doesn't own Horizons should be locked out and banned from the game. I hope frontier stops supporting the parasites soon.
Well I am not entirely serious, especially not in calling people parasites. But you get the idea.

Yeah, and I know your humor well enough to know that's not what you're stating

Without going OT too much, I fault FD in that regard- Horizons in the original form shouldn't have been sold as some sort of DLC to begin with, only because it improves so much of the base game's aspects.
A "true" DLC would have been in the fashion of new items of some sort being introduced, rather than improving existing features and selling that as "content".

Increase the base cost of the game once Horizons was implemented, sure- but sell it as a separate "expansion DLC", no. They should have split off things that didn't improve the "base" game as DLC and sold that separately. It was a dodgy and arguably "shady" move to begin with as a "seasonal" model.

 

[Blackcompany]

Amazing analysis OP.... just totally missing one teensy tiny point.

Our ships were performing just fine before engineers, and still perform just fine without engineers, at least for PvE.

Engineers, like many things in games, provide a reward for effort put in. The effort is rewarded with a permanent boost to one of your ships. I see no problem here, and the new system, while i liked the old gambling system, has done a lot to address some of the issues with the old system.

FD obviously expect a certain amount of overall effort from engineers to achieve various goals. If they wanted to make it quicker and easier, they would. Since they don't, they have set out their stall and said "this is how much effort we want you to put in". You might not like it, fair enough. You might prefer a different way of getting the rewards, but presumably if it were to change, it would still require effort.

In short, FD aren't likely to make it too easy to get what you want.

Congrats. You literally vested interest in this game has lead to your once more entirely missing the point. Likely because you once again chose to do so. Surprising.

I am fully aware our ships perform ok without Engineers. This was EXPLICITLY STATED in my post, Aunt. Try READING it. I am also fully aware that, without the RNGineers gambling system, our ships CANNOT live up to what has become their full potential. Again, stated in my post. Read it again. Or more likely, for the FIRST time.

So...we are presented with a binary choice. Do things we dont enjoy (and that are, by objective measures, poorly and lazily designed). Or miss out on content. In a game we PAID for.

Neither of those is a satisfactory solution to the growing problem of embarrassingly lazy design plaguing Elite. And defending it sure isnt going to win the game a sufficient player base to keep this massive, online game getting the updates it needs to survive for the long term.

Barring major changes to the underlying design philosophy, I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if this ship remains sailing in 2020.

 

[Blackcompany]

I don't want it easy. What I want is a reduction in the pointless busywork.


Many of the requirements for the early Engineers are pretty reasonable, and some of the later ones are actually fine for what they offer, But a few of the Engineer unlocks are torture, and not the good kind.

The worst kind of grind is the grind where you're arbitrarily restricted by game mechanics from using optimim strategies

Fujin tea is literally Satan because of this. Not only is the quantity available tiny, meaning there's no way to power grind it, but the requirements have you doing it multiple times.

And it's not an issue just because it's grindy, although that's a problem. The problem is that it is uncreative. the only way to accomplish these tasks is to do it *exactly* as intended. There is no available strategy to leverage or improve your odds of success or reduce the time required, other than just have a good FSD so you can make fewer jumps. There's no way to "solve" the problem, more and that's actually a pretty huge problem in a freestyle game. It should never be necessary to solve any problem in Elite: Dangerous exactly one way and one way only.

The problem is that these actions are simply not interesting. These quests exist for no other reason than to gate off the content behind something repetitive simply to pad the content of the game out a bit and make it take a little more time to see everything in the game -- it's lazy and doesn't really add anything but drudgery to the game.

Inserting this kind of mechanic also the sign of a game designer who is not confident at all in either the quality or the quantity, or both, of the content their game offers. Not a great look there.

. I called this style of mechanic a "busywork gate" earlier and busywork gating is not just bad game design, it's actually dangerous to infest a game with busywork gates if you want it to be a long term seller.

The distinction between grind and busywork gating I used in my post on page 1 is pretty apt. Grind is the things you decide to do that get you where you want to go. Busywork gates are the things you can't avoid doing that you nonetheles are forced to do in order to get to the point where you can grind.

Busywork basically grind squared especially in terms of raw frustration in getting stuck doing them for a relatively extended period of time. At least grind moves you forward, the sense that a busywork gate has you moving sideways makes it far less tolerable. This kind of mechanic should be used very sparingly in game design because they're a huge turnoff, especially in a game where the grinding process is already nontrivial.

Did Aunt REALLY sink to the "Easy Mode" low? Wow...is there a script these guys follow? I really think there is.

Engineering isnt hard. There is literally ZERO challenge involved in the tedious busywork of acquiring mats and meeting these intelligence insulting unlock requirements. It was NEVER hard. If you're looking for it to reward EFFORT, then my god, DO NOT defend the current design.

The only reason to defend the current setup, is because you are okay with Elite basically giving you something to tinker with while you watch Netflix. Its because you LIKE the fact that the game is a zero effort time sink that rewards a high tolerance for repetitive tedium while requiring zero of the EFFORT they try and hide behind every time someone asks for actual, engaging game play.

 

[babelfisch]

Congrats. You literally vested interest in this game has lead to your once more entirely missing the point. Likely because you once again chose to do so. Surprising.

I am fully aware our ships perform ok without Engineers. This was EXPLICITLY STATED in my post, Aunt. Try READING it. I am also fully aware that, without the RNGineers gambling system, our ships CANNOT live up to what has become their full potential. Again, stated in my post. Read it again. Or more likely, for the FIRST time.

So...we are presented with a binary choice. Do things we dont enjoy (and that are, by objective measures, poorly and lazily designed). Or miss out on content. In a game we PAID for.

Neither of those is a satisfactory solution to the growing problem of embarrassingly lazy design plaguing Elite. And defending it sure isnt going to win the game a sufficient player base to keep this massive, online game getting the updates it needs to survive for the long term.

Barring major changes to the underlying design philosophy, I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if this ship remains sailing in 2020.

I paid for the game is a very bad argument. I also paid for Skyrim but I don't want to be a sorcerer. But parts of the game are only possible for sorcerers, so the game is locking me out of content that I paid for. I can make this argument for almost every game that gives me some freedom. It's such a weak argument.

 

[frostypaw]

So...we are presented with a binary choice. Do things we dont enjoy (and that are, by objective measures, poorly and lazily designed). Or miss out on content. In a game we PAID for.

Seriously you need to take a step back and try playing another game. With so much you don't like about the game why the heck are you folk here?

It seems very unlikely they'll listen to you if you like so little of their product as they'd have to change so much to make it into a game you'd like while they're doing just fine as is with plenty of sales and players - probably best to accept that and either move on or suck it up.