Sorry, I didn't mean to pin blame on anyone - to be honest I wasn't even thinking about it as I've never really found blame to be a useful mechanism. It might be more accurate to say that CIG says some things and does some things, and if you're interested in predicting what they'll do in future you have to look at how their words relate to their actions. In the case of dates, it seems like they're always talking in terms of aspirations, which isn't entirely meaningless (e.g. Arena Commander exists now because there was an aspiration to release something playable 6 months ago) but it's understandable people would be upset if they made plans based on the assumption it was the cast-iron promise it sounded like. But what's done is done, and the main point I wanted to make is that people have reasons for feeling misled and that we can all help to stop the same situation recurring.
To be honest, I don't expect we'll agree about cynical business practices. I certainly acknowledge such things are possible, it's just that CIG's behaviour looks to me more like the same awful mess that most programming companies look like internally, exacerbated by an idealistic new company that doesn't realise how far its reach exceeds its grasp. For example, it might have been better if Arena Commander was delayed until they had something that really spoke to their core aesthetics, but that wasn't really an option when they'd lead everyone to believe they were long overdue a dogfighting module. Having said that, holding their feet to the fire about statements like "sophisticated gamers who aren't getting a lot of content" definitely sounds like an important piece of critical friendship.
I'm sure it affects their performance, but I'll make sure to add it to the list SC fanboys mention for when CIG is slow or crap at developing/including features.
I'm sure it's because they've only been working with each other for 8 months that they can't get around adding custom keybindings on a ready engine.
What's your source on this? Is that for all engines or are you specifically talking about CryEngine? Again, what's your source on this?
I should show you what I've managed to spring up in a couple of months of work in Unity... hell a week of work in UE4.
You should see what talented developers can make in ready engines in a few weeks/months of work.
If you make a car driver do the work of a physicist you aren't managing your project properly.
Especially when you have zero fund or time restraints.
So just because at some point of their careers they worked at games like that makes them have no experience in the industry as a whole?
One is a behaviour game and let's check the background of Behaviour Interactive :
Naughty Bear: Panic in Paradise (PlayStation Network, Xbox Live Arcade)
Ice Age : Continental Drift – Arctic Games (Wii, Nintendo 3DS, Nintendo DS, Xbox 360)
Brave: The Video Game (Microsoft Windows, Xbox 360, Wii, PlayStation 3, Nintendo DS)
Voltron: Defender of the Universe (PlayStation Network, Xbox Live Arcade)
Transformers: Dark of the Moon (Wii, Nintendo 3DS Nintendo DS)
Rango: The Video Game (Multiplatform) (Xbox 360, Wii, PlayStation 3, Nintendo DS)
Doritos Crash Course (Xbox Live Arcade)
MySims SkyHeroes (Multiplatform)
Naughty Bear (PlayStation 3, Xbox 360)
Dante's Inferno (PSP version)
WET (PlayStation 3, Xbox 360)
Indiana Jones and the Staff of Kings (Wii and PlayStation 2 versions)
MySims Racing (Nintendo DS and Wii)
Kung Fu Panda: Legendary Warriors (Nintendo DS and Wii versions)
Iron Man (Wii, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, PC and Nintendo DS versions)
High School Musical: Makin' the Cut! (Wii, PlayStation 2, Nintendo DS versions)
Mercenaries 2: World in Flames (PlayStation 2 version)
Lord of the Rings: Conquest (Nintendo DS version)
High School Musical 2: Work This Out! (Nintendo DS version)
Transformers: Animated (Nintendo DS version)
The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor (Nintendo DS version)
Power Rangers: Super Legends (PlayStation 2, PC and Nintendo DS versions)
Spider-Man: Friend or Foe (Nintendo DS & PlayStation Portable versions)
WET 2 (Multiplatform)
Happy Feet
The Ant Bully
Disney's Kim Possible: Global Gemini
Disney's Kim Possible: What's the Switch?
Teen Titans
Monster House
Disney's Kim Possible: Kimmunicator
Evergirl
Ed, Edd n Eddy: The Mis-Edventures
Flow: Urban Dance Uprising
Chicken Little
Lizzie McGuire 2
Get On Da Mic
Scooby-Doo! Unmasked
Scaler
Carmen Sandiego: The Secret of the Stolen Drums
Kim Possible 2: Drakken's Demise
Home on the Range
Scooby Doo: Mystery Mayhem
Ice Age
Monsters, Inc. Scream Team
Bugs Bunny & Taz: Time Busters
Smurf Racer
The Grinch
Bugs Bunny: Lost in Time
Jersey Devil
Drake & Josh
Doritos Crash Course 2
Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade
Phineas and Ferb: Quest for Cool Stuff
SpongeBob SquarePants: Plankton's Robotic Revenge
Zoo Tycoon Friends
I have no idea who worked on the other game. But measuring people just by 1 project in their whole career is wrong. If we do that I would never pay for a space sim from the company that did Zoo Tycoon. But what has one to do with the other? Please check on the rest of CIG. They have some crazy talent on board.
It's from my own experience and from other people in the industry. To be at a level where you ''Truly'' know an engine and where you can even modify engine code or expand the engine code itself you need at least 2 years of experience.
He is the lead Technical Designer and to get to that level he had at least 5 years Cryengine experience. The Technical sides of an Engine is hard to master and it takes ages. But this is a more hardcore example of course. That's why I am saying to know the insides out would take at least 2 years imo.
If you make a car driver do the work of a physicist you aren't managing your project properly. Especially when you have zero fund or time restraints.
Exactly, that's why you don't see flight changes that quickly because excluding CR there is only 2 physicists in CIG and 1 mathematician. Also another point that I have to add that the IFCS system is complex as hell. I can only imagine how much time it would take to balance modify or change it.
Just a quick correction here. FD now has about 70-100 people involved in ED, among many other projects in development or maintenance (and the KS started with about 15 people involved, ramping up only happened when the project got the green light after KS). The quote you provided was for the whole company, not the ED project man.
At this point of time, CIG has about three times the number of employers on their project than ED does (both in-house and under contract).
Oh I didn't know that part exactly. Thanks for the info. What are the other developers doing then?
On hold The Outsider Frontier Developments PS3, Win, XBO
TBA Coaster Crazy Deluxe for Wii U Frontier Developments WiiU
So one project is on hold the other one is just a Wii U conversion?
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Right now CIG has way more devs working on SC but that's normal they have gotten more ''visible'' funding and make a way bigger game at one go while FD is making the base game and then expanding through releasing expansion packs.
It's from my own experience and from other people in the industry. To be at a level where you ''Truly'' know an engine and where you can even modify engine code or expand the engine code itself you need at least 2 years of experience.
Absolute malarkey.
This depends on so many factors I won't even start.
I don't even know why you mentioned it... are you saying that everyone in CIG who hasn't worked on CryEngine before need 2 years before they can start produce something worth releasing?
Assuming everyone lives in your magic world where EVERYONE is the same.
Absolute malarkey.
This depends on so many factors I won't even start.
I don't even know why you mentioned it... are you saying that everyone in CIG who hasn't worked on CryEngine before need 2 years before they can start produce something worth releasing?
Assuming everyone lives in your magic world where EVERYONE is the same.
So now the excuse why we're seeing leaderboards before flight model changes is the lack of physicists and mathematicians.
The excuses just keep on rolling in. I swear there's a new one every few weeks.
It depends on many many factors. But 2 years Cryengine experience is needed at least for quality work. Check some job offers that require work on Cryengine.
What I am saying isn't that they need 2 years to release something. We are talking about production efficiency and you get more efficient with time. So while you produce something slow and rough in the first months. You get faster in 6 months and produce something better. Practice makes perfect. It increases your speed and the quality of work.
That is not an excuse. You are saying all the time that their priorities lie in Race Tracks and Leaderboards. I am telling you what have the people doing those parts of the game have to do with the people who are working on flight?
I just hate when people want X but blame Y for coming along the way especially when the people who make X and Y are on different work flows.
Having said that, holding their feet to the fire about statements like "sophisticated gamers who aren't getting a lot of content" definitely sounds like an important piece of critical friendship.
This is the point that concerns me because my tastes don't run to a game for the broadest possible market. Bearing this show stopping issue in mind I hope you can understand why the rest I can wave. On this problem, the way you put it seems to suggest a belief they can yet be influenced. I doubt it. Whatever it once was I'm afraid their intention now is simply to make the biggest grossing space game and calibrate it accordingly. In which case I and all other "sophisticated gamers who aren't getting a lot of content" have gone from being original backers to an inconvenient tiny elitist minority who also happen to have no more money to give, which in turn means our views are irrelevant to CIG.
Exactly, that's why you don't see flight changes that quickly because excluding CR there is only 2 physicists in CIG and 1 mathematician. Also another point that I have to add that the IFCS system is complex as hell. I can only imagine how much time it would take to balance modify or change it.
Then they're employing the wrong people. In my experience, physicists and mathematicians (along with chemists) make the best software engineers. If they only have 3 people with a background in physics and maths, there's no wonder they're having trouble.
I actually don't think that's the case. I expect that the 3 people you're referring to are actually experts in physics and maths. I would have thought they'd also have at least a few people with a solid background in control theory to make the IFCS work properly. Or at least tell TPTB that it can never work properly...
The problem we have here is that CIG&CR claim how they will do significant changes in net code and do certain modification in Cryengine things that Crytek programmers didn't do it so far(surprise,surprise) and now Mr.Nowak you saying us contradiction story here again,now they need 2 years just to know well all capabilities of this Cryengine version.Well if that is the case then SC will be out around 2025.
As with all good vapourware, you can't go ahead and quote a realistic timeframe like 2025. You have to carefully keep moving the goalposts, and add more features along the way so you can continue to do so. So it's 2015.. no delayed 6 more months... 2016... another delay 2017. Then evenually you get to 2025 And project cancelled.
The problem we have here is that CIG&CR claim how they will do significant changes in net code and do certain modification in Cryengine things that Crytek programmers didn't do it so far(surprise,surprise) and now Mr.Nowak you saying us contradiction story here again,now they need 2 years just to know well all capabilities of this Cryengine version.Well if that is the case then SC will be out around 2025.
If true it will mean I have not been BSed into funded a game for point and click mouse commanders to play, I have in fact been BSed into funding a game for their kids to play. I wonder...why does this feel like some small measure of consolation? I'll need to ponder this...
It depends on many many factors. But 2 years Cryengine experience is needed at least for quality work. Check some job offers that require work on Cryengine.
What I am saying isn't that they need 2 years to release something. We are talking about production efficiency and you get more efficient with time. So while you produce something slow and rough in the first months. You get faster in 6 months and produce something better. Practice makes perfect. It increases your speed and the quality of work.
So , according to your post and assuming CIG employs CryEngine "newbies" you would agree that their work right now is sub-par and slow?
Also just a query I have: Do you work for RSI (which would explain your religious support for them) or are you completely obsessed by the Star Citizen project? You seem to know random tidbits of information about the company that would either notion to internal acquaintances or ridiculously thorough examination of everything to do with them.
Were these requirements for job offers not implemented when CIG was hiring people?
So , according to your post and assuming CIG employs CryEngine "newbies" you would agree that their work right now is sub-par and slow?
Also just a query I have: Do you work for RSI (which would explain your religious support for them) or are you completely obsessed by the Star Citizen project? You seem to know random tidbits of information about the company that would either notion to internal acquaintances or ridiculously thorough examination of everything to do with them.
I don't think CIG was very very hardcore in the beginning they did hire some nice talent but also went with who they know from the industry rather than having people who know CryEngine better. (A lot of Ex Origin or Ascendant people)
I don't have the numbers but while a part of CIG is very experienced in CryEngine and that's what they were recruited for another part is pretty new to Cryengine past 2011-2012 and on. They do have other gaming industry experiences though. So I think 2014 is where CIG really upped their production and productivity. Especially after the CIG summit in January and with the opening of CIG Manchester.
I don't work for CIG. Neither do I religiously support them I am just excited that a project like this came along and broke so many funding records and aims to do something very ambitious. Knowing that this takes long and as I am a very patient person I don't get frustrated when I don't get SC sooner. Game development is a beast and it's a hard one to tame at that.
I also pointed out my issues with AC and I also have some thoughts about the funding and several other things but I see the reasons behind them that's why I don't go on the offensive as much because if I was CIG I would do the same. I follow the project very closely though because for me it's become one of my favorite research topics. These topics vary for example for a long time I was observing the Arab Spring in a very detailed manner.
One thing I know is that they have at least two ex-Crytek CryEngine specialists(the 2 I know are Dan Tracy and Paul Reindell, Paul Reindell seems to be CIG's lead engine programmer and has written a CE3 guide).
One thing I know is that they have at least two ex-Crytek CryEngine specialists(the 2 I know are Dan Tracy and Paul Reindell, Paul Reindell seems to be CIG's lead engine programmer and has written a CE3 guide).
Yes that's a well know fact, even first demo that what all of us saw when CR was doing his small flaying demonstration in hornet was done in Cryengine as well.Now seems like it was all ready done deal between this two even before CR announce SC kickstarter,hmm that's a bit odd.Why you going to choose to make a primary a SIM game in a game engine that NO ONE before even try to do any kind of sim in CE???Do we ever have a chance to see that famous contract between Crytek and CIG???
