Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[giraffes]

I personally Appreciate the change to the KWS .. as I often scan a (player) ship and see a 15k bounty ... but am not cleared to fire on the ship... and do not.. because it's not worth having a 6k + bounty on myself just for killing a ship wanted elsewhere... so 10 times out of 10 I ignore the information acquired by my kws (when referring to scanning player ships) ... but now... players will more often have bounties with the new system as they cannot just exploit them away with a sidewinder suicide.. and if i'm clear to attack the ship I'll actually do it.. making the KWS useful against players .. as it has NEVER been. .... and as for those of you that think this will make npc ships less valuable .. npc ships are always randomly generated, and can easily be tweaked to spawn with the appropriate additional payout. the new changes to the kws make it a more realized module for bounty hunting players, and the amount you get for killing npcs can easily be adjusted.. every time anything changes people seem to get up in arms about it.. I for one and happy to see it. edit: that being said I'm appreciating the specific "clearing" of the ship to be fired upon, I'm not sure how i feel about not showing bounties across the board.. it's far too easy to just change systems. rendering the BH in this situation out of options as following the criminal to another location has no point.. making the wake scanner kind of useless. ... why follow at all?. it's irritating enough that the kws scan isnt persistent and you have to follow and rescan a ship over and over before being able to fire on it giving the criminal in this situation an significant advantage when fleeing.

 

[raymondo the great]

.
It's very easy to write 1024 hours, right? Have you calculated that your suggestion would require 85 DAYS of gameplay to recover?

While your point may be accurate this is at least mildly misleading

All times in the game are real time. So thats not 85 days of gameplay (ie implies hours in the game) but 85 days.

Now the question is what do you need to do to get to level 10? Did anyone ever get their in the beta? If that is a fair punishment I don't know as I don't know how bad you "need to be"....but either way I think that is a discussion for another thread really. As how long you are wanted for is somthing that can be tweaked independently of the actual bounties the KWS reveals, same with the cost of bounties etc.

 

[Becky]

Have I missed anything?

We use KWS to prevent expansion by handing everyone else's bounties but our own to lower influence - we hand our own faction's bounties in another system.

Pretty essential if you have a player faction without a black market.

 

[Funny]

While your point may be accurate this is at least mildly misleading

All times in the game are real time. So thats not 85 days of gameplay (ie implies hours in the game) but 85 days.

Now the question is what do you need to do to get to level 10? Did anyone ever get their in the beta? If that is a fair punishment I don't know as I don't know how bad you "need to be"....but either way I think that is a discussion for another thread really. As how long you are wanted for is somthing that can be tweaked independently of the actual bounties the KWS reveals, same with the cost of bounties etc.

You need to kill ten ships lol.

 

[Mengy]

So what I'm proposing is simply this :

-------------------------------------
1. When used on an NPC, a Pilots' Federation Kill Warrant Scanner would show all bounties the NPC carries, regardless of geo-political and system boundaries, and legitimise attack on such an NPC if any bounties are found. Local bounties could then be claimed locally, Superpower bounties could be claimed at a station where said Superpower was the dominant faction, and (and this is the different bit, the Pilots' Federation special bit) all other non-local, non-Superpower bounties would be claimed via a 'contact Pilots' Federation' option at a station.

2. When used on a fellow CMDR, a Pilots' Federation Kill Warrant Scanner would only show bounties accrued as a result of attacking CMDRs, and specifically NOT bounties accrued from attacking NPCs. Because as I say, what a fellow CMDR gets up to with NPCs is none of another CMDR's business really. But the Pilots' Federation doesn't like its members attacking each other, so if CMDRs do attack each other, then it does become your business. Because it's better all round for the Pilots' Federation if it can keep things 'in the family' so to speak. After all, if word got out that CMDRs were shooting each other all the time, it would undermine the Pilots' Federation's position as the 'go to guys' for all those tough and/or sensitive jobs, wouldn't it? Basically, it means if you've attacked a fellow CMDR you become wanted by the Pilots' Federation - and ONLY by the Pilots' Federation. As such, if you were to destroy a Pilots' Federation wanted ship, you'd have to go to a Pilots' Federation contact to inform them the wrongdoer has been smacked and claim the CMDR bounty.
-------------------------------------

For the TL;DR folk, my proposed Pilot's Federation Kill Warrant Scanner would do this :

If you scan an NPC, you see all bounties, even in anarchies, and can shoot said NPC with impunity.
If you scan a CMDR, you only see if they're wanted by the Pilots' Federation itself as a result of them having destroyed other CMDRs' ships. Such bounties can only be claimed at Pilots' Federation contacts.

I love this idea. This would pretty much fix any issue I have with the "new" KWS.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

While your point may be accurate this is at least mildly misleading

All times in the game are real time. So thats not 85 days of gameplay (ie implies hours in the game) but 85 days.

Now the question is what do you need to do to get to level 10? Did anyone ever get their in the beta? If that is a fair punishment I don't know as I don't know how bad you "need to be"....but either way I think that is a discussion for another thread really. As how long you are wanted for is somthing that can be tweaked independently of the actual bounties the KWS reveals, same with the cost of bounties etc.

Actually, they've stated in the Livestreams and in the summation here that notoriety decays during logged-in GAME TIME, not real time (like mission durations). So that would be ludicrously high amount.

I murder (PVP or PVE) = 1 notoriety level. It currently (according to the proposal I linked above) takes 2 hours of game time to decay one level. I think that is an appropriate amount of time.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Why would a system in a state of anarchy have the resources to facilitate law enforcement. The whole point of an anarchy is that there is minimal law and order. The KWS should *not* work in every system in the galaxy - certainly not in systems with Compromised Nav Beacons. Furthermore, some of us would appreciate seeing empty systems utilised for piracy and criminals - perhaps with a label of LAWLESS. In such empty systems the KWW should not function at all. If the KWS is to function in anarchy systems, then it should pay out a far lower amount due to the inefficiency of the government - or lack-there-of - operating in that system.

Technically, the KWS is supposed to be checking in with Interstellar (that means, beyond the local system) Authorities for bounty's elsewhere. There is no reason why those bounties shouldn't come up while you're in an Anarchy system. Your target can fight back with no repercussions and you can't turn those bounties in AT the Anarchy system. So the KWS working in Anarchy system actually makes a lot of sense.

That being said, I am fine with them changing Anarchy systems to be safe havens for criminals - one where even a KWS doesn't work. Perhaps there is some treaty, or fine print in the KWS contract, that says bounty hunters can't collect bounties in lawless systems. With the new C&P changes, this will give criminals a much needed safe haven. So I'm cool with it. Just don't try to convince me that a KWS working in anarchy makes no sense logically... because it does, given the way it works.

 

[Titus Balls]

Hello Commanders!

...just why would a Federal detention process care about Imperial infractions, plus maybe avoiding massive multi-faction mega bounties that guarantee ship loss....

Maybe instead of thinking of detention centres as superpower controlled, position them like Cartographics or Interstellar Factors as being separate from them, controlled by it's own entity like GalPris - or even the Pilots Federation.

Instead of then just dealing with single superpower, you can then deal with multiple jurisdictions near the centre.

 

[Titus Balls]

Why would a system in a state of anarchy have the resources to facilitate law enforcement. The whole point of an anarchy is that there is minimal law and order. The KWS should *not* work in every system in the galaxy - certainly not in systems with Compromised Nav Beacons. Furthermore, some of us would appreciate seeing empty systems utilised for piracy and criminals - perhaps with a label of LAWLESS. In such empty systems the KWW should not function at all. If the KWS is to function in anarchy systems, then it should pay out a far lower amount due to the inefficiency of the government - or lack-there-of - operating in that system.

You can't have anarchy be completely free havens for criminals, when no other system type is truly free of criminals.

Yes, anarchy systems should be SAFER havens for criminals, and offer more opportunities for them to make money and ranking (for players). But the KWS shouldn't be useless against NPCs in these systems for sure. These systems should also offer bounty hunters a way to make money (and of course anarchy systems can be flipped to a lawful state with enough work).

 

[Cosmo]

The Kill Warrant Scanner should detect all bounties and the player should get paid for every bounty.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

In whatever chance this may get read: Just saw obsidian ants video..

And the new changes seem inverted from reality, ie, these new changes are first and foremost intended to prevent issues with increased player bounties rather than for the explicit intent of the KWS itself. Baby is a bloody corpse a few floors down.

To provide alternative as well as issue:

- Balance the kws differently for pvp and pve.
- For pve, why not buff it like exploration data and make more competitive sandbox bounty hunting for those that care about payout rewards.
- For players, create some non responsive intent for the warrant amount, say some function based on ship + notoriety + enginnering(?) ie, cap it at something like 100k for an adder and 4 million for a corvette. Or find the balance that makes it just worth while for other players to seek out players with bounties vs increased benefits of notoriety so people want to earn it (rank gated missions?).

If that is too hard that's not the fault of players.

 

[Gyev]

Why is this so difficult?

Hello Commanders!

We’ve been going through the feedback for the Kill Warrant Scanner (as always, thank you for your input!) and wanted to clarify why the module has changed, as well as float an idea for your consideration.

As part of the crime update, we now place bounties on ships, which are cleared one jurisdiction at a time. This means that when criminals are processed, their captors only care about crimes relevant to their jurisdiction. Because other bounties remain, there is more consequence, as Commanders risk losing their ship multiple times if they have multiple bounties.

However, this caused an issue with the Kill Warrant scanner. The new system runs on the principle that only one bounty is cleared at a time at a detention centre, which does not work with the old version of the Kill Warrant Scanner, as it detected all bounties.

Additionally, if detention centres *did* process all bounties the result would potentially be crippling, punishing Commanders too harshly for killing ships, even NPC ships, by forcing them to pay every bounty at once, especially considering that bounties will no longer expire.

So we changed the Kill Warrant Scanner to detect the single largest bounty. This would allow the villain to be destroyed multiple times, and over time would allow all the bounties to be claimed. However, there is no denying that it significantly reduces the earning potential of the module.

We think the updated crime system is better across the board, and ultimately, worth the change to how the KWS works.

That being said, we are considering (and just that, no ETA or guarantee, this is just something we’re mulling over) a change to the KWS.

It’s somewhat significant, so we’d like to get some feedback on the concept before deciding any next step.


Kill Warrant Scanner Serving Suggestion

• Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.
  • E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions.
• What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen. This freedom to attack will expire once the target leaves the location, via supercruise, hyperspace jump or the like.
  
  
• The KWS will detect all Interstellar bounties on a target vessel. However, it does not legitimise attack, so you still will have to break the law to collect them if the Interstellar bounty is for a different superpower than the current jurisdiction is alinged to.

This change would bring the Kill Warrant Scanners closer to its original specification, especially regarding earning potential, improve it in some contextually appropriate situations by legitimising attack, limit its power where appropriate by hiding non-local independent bounties and fit neatly within the lore of how the game deals with criminality and factions.

So now, over to you. Do you think this proposal give the KWS enough kick? Does it punish/threaten criminals too much? Is the mechanic clear enough? In short, have a gander and tell us what you think. A final reminder, this is just a suggestion that we're looking at, not a definite plan.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

————————————————————
Why don’t you just make scans to AI ships work like they always have and have scans to Player Ships work like they propose for the first iteration of the Beyond update? Sounds simple enough to me...

 

[raymondo the great]

You need to kill ten ships lol.

Ok, I've been there back in my smuggling days and to be fair I wouldn't mind almost 3 months notoriety for it, though I understand maybe some others wouldn't I'm sure a happy medium could be found...I do find the idea of sleeping off your 10* wanted level a tad daft though...

Actually, they've stated in the Livestreams and in the summation here that notoriety decays during logged-in GAME TIME, not real time (like mission durations). So that would be ludicrously high amount.

I murder (PVP or PVE) = 1 notoriety level. It currently (according to the proposal I linked above) takes 2 hours of game time to decay one level. I think that is an appropriate amount of time.

Wait they did what??? Made timers that only pass while in game?

a - how did I miss that?
b - ? the whole point of online games like this is time is supposed to pass real time! What next? Mission timers that stop when you log off?

 

[Sirius Agent]

What are you doing? Your best strategy of making ED is nerfing everything? How can I make profit from pvp, which is pointless now and by this will be more time wasting?

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Hello Commanders!

Kill Warrant Scanner Serving Suggestion

• What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen. This freedom to attack will expire once the target leaves the location, via supercruise, hyperspace jump or the like.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

This would be in my opinion the greatest solution
Finding criminals and bringing punishment to them, without breaking the law yourself is what would make a bountyhunter a REAL bountyhunter. It would support the new C&P system in a great way, where you have a real risk, that someone likes to scan you for some hidden bounty.
i don't know what to say anymore but PLEASE this version. a wish would become true

 

[biohazard15]

This would be in my opinion the greatest solution
Finding criminals and bringing punishment to them, without breaking the law yourself is what would make a bountyhunter a REAL bountyhunter. It would support the new C&P system in a great way, where you have a real risk, that someone likes to scan you for some hidden bounty.
i don't know what to say anymore but PLEASE this version. a wish would become true

So basically make all BH like in current anarchies, e.g. everyone is clean until scanned? Thanks but no thanks.

Besides, why scan everyone while I can simply request a list of known criminals? It's BOUNTY hunting, after all - and bounty needs to be posted before someone can hunt for it.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

We've taken a step back and revaluated what we want the Kill Warrant Scanner to achieve, as well as look at how it fits in with the bigger picture of the update crime system. Part of the issue we run into with the KWS is how it interacts with Interstellar bounties. We've decided to more clearly delineate the roles of these to features:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.
• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

With this suite of rules, we can see that the Kill Warrant scanner becomes a clearly defined tool. It communicates with all security channels within the system, allowing Commanders to fully exploit bounty hunting opportunities where they are.

This allows the Kill Warrant scanner to be effective in gaining reputation, tactically supporting factions and of course, increasing profits (we'd be looking at making sure the right levels of crime are linked to factions in the system). It also means that bounty hunters can continue to work in anarchies.

Whilst it does lose some power being limited to the system where it is being used, we've offset this by allowing the Kill Warrant scanner to legitimise attack when dealing with bounties associated with a superpower. We've also made it more robust in protecting the bounty hunter's reputation when working a system.

This also allows Interstellar bounties to remain relevant:

• Interstellar Bounties provide a license to kill in all associated jurisdictions.
• Interstellar bounties are packed up for the criminal, unpacked for the bounty hunter.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower (such as the Federation), all bounties from Federal aligned factions will be visible - and legally claimable - to anyone performing a basic scan on you whilst in a Federal aligned jurisdiction. Furthermore, the bounty hunter still retains the ability to claim or avoid individual bounties within an Interstellar bounty, allowing them to interact with the background simulation as before.

These rules also mitigate one of our bugbears: superpowers honouring each others bounties. Whilst this can happen at a local level using the Kill Warrant scanner, such bounties are local bounties connected with the faction rather than the superpower.

Once a bounty becomes Interstellar, the superpowers get involved, and they take a different approach - only accepting claims within their jurisdiction.

Overall, we're quite happy with this proposal, to the point of looking into making it happen, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

[raymondo the great]

This would be in my opinion the greatest solution
Finding criminals and bringing punishment to them, without breaking the law yourself is what would make a bountyhunter a REAL bountyhunter. It would support the new C&P system in a great way, where you have a real risk, that someone likes to scan you for some hidden bounty.
i don't know what to say anymore but PLEASE this version. a wish would become true

Yeah because bounty hunters never get in trouble with the cops (who mostly hate them) noooo they are given free passes to do whatever....sure.....

https://www.today.com/popculture/bounty-hunter-duane-dog-chapman-arrested-2D80555484

https://gazettereview.com/2016/04/what-happened-to-dog-the-bounty-hunter-updates/ (if you read down a bit you'll find he got in trouble in Mexico for bounty hunting and became an international fugitive himself)

some stuff on other bounty hunters...

https://nypost.com/2015/08/06/bount...mistakenly-trying-to-raid-police-chiefs-home/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jun/20/usa.mexico (again mexico doesn't like bounty hunting)

and on and on the net goes on this!

In summary Bounty hunting <> being a super cop! And going and getting a bounty in a place where they aren't wanted and cashing that bounty where they are should be a thing, is a thing now, and this idea that just because someone has a bounty they should be free for you to attack anywhere is really quite silly and actually ruins the whole idea of being a bounty hunter!

 

[DARGAN]

The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.

yes I had this idea to solve the problem, I do not see too much more effective.. unless we can choose for which jurisdictions or superpowers we want to use KWS and let us know the bounty for only those chosen.. or choose several by a check box system, but it would be too heavy.

 

[Shanaeri]

Thank you Sandro.

For the avoidance of doubt. Is the KWS as per 3.0 beta planned for release, or will it be re-worked to avoid the issues identified in this thread prior to 3.0 release.

The solution outlined above doesn't solve the CG issue where the CG system is poor for bounty hunting but one nearby is much better, albeit operated by another faction.