The Star Citizen Thread V2.0

[mid_gen]

Do you have any information that says a Dedicated server box gives a better service than a P2P system? Because I will tell you that is . The reason is that any servers is completely dependent on the quality of the code. All things being equal, do you have any information to back up that statement?

I am aware of ED's architecture. The important part as far as combat is concerned, is wholly reliant on P2P. The experience is poor for me.

Whether SC's servers are in their own datacentre, or in Google's cloud service is completely immaterial. They are both dedicated client server models with high performance servers on high performance internet connections and will provide a better quality of service than relying on the player's hardware and internet connectivity.

EDIT : I totally understand why ED went with the P2P setup. Hosting all realtime player interactions on dedicated servers is a HUGE undertaking in terms of infrastructure and most importantly, opex. You can't have that kind of opex without a sustained revenue stream (subscription, microtransactions, whatever).

 

[Bains]

I am aware of ED's architecture. The important part as far as combat is concerned, is wholly reliant on P2P. The experience is poor for me.

Whether SC's servers are in their own datacentre, or in Google's cloud service is completely immaterial. They are both dedicated client server models with high performance servers on high performance internet connections and will provide a better quality of service than relying on the player's hardware and internet connectivity.

EDIT : I totally understand why ED went with the P2P setup. Hosting all realtime player interactions on dedicated servers is a HUGE undertaking in terms of infrastructure and most importantly, opex. You can't have that kind of opex without a sustained revenue stream (subscription, microtransactions, whatever).

If combat is important to you it would be wise to try it out before passing judgement. If you're working on the assumption SC combat is different but comparable, I think you'll be in for quite a shock. There obviously comes a point where the experience is so poor the good connection is irrelevant. If on the other hand, whether you care to admit it or not, the actual combat itself is secondary, you should be alright.

 

[mid_gen]

Here's a little preview for you. Note that I was thoughtful enough to select a sexy french language SC video in the hope it would add some much needed interest and combat the yawn factor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf_eBHtqgkg

ED is a lot further down the development track than SC, I don't expect the two games to be in a similarly finished state.

ED's flight model may be good, but NPC combat is a boring grind at the moment, and PC combat so rare as to not matter.

 

[Bains]

ED is a lot further down the development track than SC, I don't expect the two games to be in a similarly finished state.

ED's flight model may be good, but NPC combat is a boring grind at the moment, and PC combat so rare as to not matter.

Here I am for the third time pointing out you claim you have yet to try SC. Very odd.

 

[dumbo]

Since the end of the Alpha I don't think I've seen any threads about players not being able to connect at all, so I'd say it's working pretty well.

I suspect that if you can't connect, your PC requests another master from the server - which may be the cause of the massive delays.

It was stated in the Kickstarter that FD wouldn't be using a subscription model, so it's off the table. FWIW, I think that the majority of Alphans wouldn't have been against it.

FD clearly think they can make the P2P model work, and everything I've seen so far indicates that they're making a good fist of it. It's great to see how flexible they're able to be, in that we've already seen some things move server-side when their reliability on the P2P side was called into question.

There are only 2 components of ED development that concern me:
- the lack of the dynamic universe bits. I assume this is coming later, but it's a large system and has risks attached.
- networking. I've been stuck requesting docking permission for several minutes, and I get stuck in SC for 10 seconds+ regularly at prime time. (due to the way travel works, those 10 second+ hangs are infuriating)

I'm very positive about ED, but the networking (in beta) is not something I'd willingly use.

 

[mid_gen]

If combat is important to you it would be wise to try it out before passing judgement. If you're working on the assumption SC combat is different but comparable, I think you'll be in for quite a shock. There obviously comes a point where the experience is so poor the good connection is irrelevant. If on the other hand, whether you care to admit it or not, the actual combat itself is secondary, you should be alright.

I am looking forward to trying it out. I have been trying out ED and reached the conclusion that on current track, player combat is going to be a) exceedingly rare, and b) not a fun gameplay experience because you're at the mercy of the poor P2P QoS.

It's really annoying being in an instance happily plinking away at NPCs, only to have a player drop in and have the instance fall apart and have to log out and back in to get a decent experience again.

 

[Voivod]

ED is a lot further down the development track than SC, I don't expect the two games to be in a similarly finished state.

ED's flight model may be good, but NPC combat is a boring grind at the moment, and PC combat so rare as to not matter.

The current version of the NPC combat doesn't really matter.. since FD has stated numerous times (since some people have trouble using logic) that many features aren't implemented yet. Features that influence the experience of NPC combat.

The fact that the flight model is so good is what matters. The basics are good, everything else can be built.
Also whatever PvP combat I did take part in was very exciting (even dying to an anaconda in my eagle).

ED had an alpha flight model a hell of a lot better than what SC has in it's alpha state. This is what SC has to build on, make the flight model enjoyable.
CIG said that they'll be working on the flight model in the next patches, so here's hoping they do it right.

 

[Bains]

I am looking forward to trying it out. I have been trying out ED and reached the conclusion that on current track, player combat is going to be a) exceedingly rare, and b) not a fun gameplay experience because you're at the mercy of the poor P2P QoS.

It's really annoying being in an instance happily plinking away at NPCs, only to have a player drop in and have the instance fall apart and have to log out and back in to get a decent experience again.

If that's you experience. But you'd think there would be uproar when there is none. Why is that do you think?

At the same time you sound very confident about an experience you admit you have yet to try, and in the case of the PU, does not even exist.

All very odd. The same goes for 25 post Dumbo.

 

[mid_gen]

If that's you experience. But you'd think there would be uproar when there is none. Why is that do you think?

At the same time you sound very confident about an experience you admit you have yet to try, and in the case of the PU, does not even exist.

All very odd. The same goes for 25 post Dumbo.

Well, most people aren't engaged in player combat (taboo subject on here), and losses people suffer from network issues are waved away as it's a beta. I think there will be a lot more noise come release when people are losing their month's worth of playtime ship because player#2345's little brother was running torrents and the instance fell to bits.

I am confident SC will be a good game. I'm also confident ED will be, I just believe from my experience so far that SC's network architecture will offer a superior realtime combat experience than ED.

Besides, as people are so keen to point out, ED isn't 'about' player combat, so it's not a criticism, just horses for courses. I am muchly looking forward to the exploration side of things.

 

[Voivod]

Besides, as people are so keen to point out, ED isn't 'about' player combat, so it's not a criticism, just horses for courses.

Plenty of people are saying the opposite as well though.
In fact FD has stated the opposite as well.

Don't cherry pick which voices you hear.

 

[mid_gen]

Plenty of people are saying the opposite as well though.
In fact FD has stated the opposite as well.

Don't cherry pick which voices you hear.

The scale of ED means that player interactions are going to be few and far between. There's only 55 systems at the moment, and unless you want grief and sit outside a station, player combat is pretty thin on the ground, to put it mildly.

 

[dumbo]

At the same time you sound very confident about an experience you admit you have yet to try, and in the case of the PU, does not even exist.

All very odd. The same goes for 25 post Dumbo.

Oh, you can check my post history, I am certainly not a plant .

For SC:
- I like some aspects of the design. I think the flight model needs to 'grow' into something more interesting. The universe design seems less realistic and more "hollywoody/mass effect", but if it works, it works .
- I think the development model is absolutely insane.
- I would have concerns that the funding level is inadequate.

I may buy a ship at some point - dunno .

In the case of ED:
- I played the original Elite on a BBC, a spectrum (and I believe a very early PC). It is still one of my favourite games of all time. I also played the first frontier (not sure if I played the second?).
- I enjoy the offline game, I am in beta, and will love it when it gets released.
- I do not enjoy the online game at all. The hangs are frustrating, and things are often buggy.
- if they intend to release 'this year', then I would want to see the persistent universe added for testing ASAP.
- I'm considering forking out for a CH products pro throttle for the game .

That's obviously all "in my opinion", that's how I see things.

 

[Voivod]

The scale of ED means that player interactions are going to be few and far between. There's only 55 systems at the moment, and unless you want grief and sit outside a station, player combat is pretty thin on the ground, to put it mildly.

And what features currently exist in the beta that support PvP?

 

[Bains]

Well, most people aren't engaged in player combat (taboo subject on here), and losses people suffer from network issues are waved away as it's a beta. I think there will be a lot more noise come release when people are losing their month's worth of playtime ship because player#2345's little brother was running torrents and the instance fell to bits.

I am confident SC will be a good game. I'm also confident ED will be, I just believe from my experience so far that SC's network architecture will offer a superior realtime combat experience than ED.

Besides, as people are so keen to point out, ED isn't 'about' player combat, so it's not a criticism, just horses for courses. I am muchly looking forward to the exploration side of things.

So you're just a regular elite backer who plans to try out SC tonight for the first time, nothing more to it.

But you cant help throwing out statements like:

Well, most people aren't engaged in player combat (taboo subject on here),

and

PS. To avoid the usual forums trolls jumping on my back (you guys really ruin this community btw)...

and

Something to do with us all being dullard fanboys which I can't even find right now because I suppose you or a moderator quiet rightly removed it as inflammatory.

And of course you're absolutely confident about star citizen without ever having tried it...

Sorry mate, I far as I can tell you may be also be an elite backer but first and foremost you are a star citizen fan with an axe to grind on this thread. Next time just be honest. And drop the act, it's already wearing thin in any case.

 

[Coda]

I don't think ANYONE suggested that we had to choose one game over the other. What I saw, and I could be off, was players trying to CHANGE elite mechanics to make the game provide them with targets.

Some were expecting a sandbox version that would force everyone in one spot and the pirates would just pick and choose. When that didn't seem obvious the pseudo-expert player/game designers sent up a howl.

I have SC. My preference is right there in the cockpit. I would rather look at the inside of an elite cockpit. I think I have a legitimate right to make a choice based on graphics.

I hardly think I have a legitimate right to tell other players how to play the game, or tell Frontier how to set the game up for my particular gameplay.

But, nice try. I think I nearly have my hotas commands in place. I'm almost ready... \o/

 

[1500]

I am looking forward to trying it out. I have been trying out ED and reached the conclusion that on current track, player combat is going to be a) exceedingly rare, and b) not a fun gameplay experience because you're at the mercy of the poor P2P QoS.

It's really annoying being in an instance happily plinking away at NPCs, only to have a player drop in and have the instance fall apart and have to log out and back in to get a decent experience again.

Odd that you seem to be the only one having that problem.

 

[xyphic]

I suspect that if you can't connect, your PC requests another master from the server - which may be the cause of the massive delays.

Could be. I keep meaning to take a look at the network logs to see if anything obvious pops out. I'm pretty sure that STUN/TURN works for the majority of NATs, and the server should know the state of play for all clients (as it's involved in setting up the NAT traversal routes), so should know which clients it can introduce to each other.

I say should. It may not all be working yet. However, the high bandwidth usage during supercruise exit makes me think something else is going on.

There are only 2 components of ED development that concern me:
- the lack of the dynamic universe bits. I assume this is coming later, but it's a large system and has risks attached.
- networking. I've been stuck requesting docking permission for several minutes, and I get stuck in SC for 10 seconds+ regularly at prime time. (due to the way travel works, those 10 second+ hangs are infuriating)

I'm very positive about ED, but the networking (in beta) is not something I'd willingly use.

The docking permission issue is apparently a bug. Michael said in the Twitch stream from last night that they were aware of it, and that they've implemented something that should fix it -- whether that's a server or client thing, I don't know.

The dynamic universe is already there in its infancy. The economy will change based on supply and demand, but you're right: there's an awful lot still to come. No different to SC in that regard.

 

[mid_gen]

So your just a regular elite backer who plans to try out SC tonight for the first time, nothing more to it.

Err, yes? I was just posting my opinion on the current state of ED and saying I'm looking forward to trying SC.

It is possible to like both games.[redacted]

..first and foremost you are a star citizen fan with an axe to grind on this thread.

I am simply a gamer, enjoying (or looking forward to enjoying) two different games, for different reasons. I would rather you didn't go putting your 'fan' labels on me, though I guess it's just the tribal way of game communities to have this 'us v them' mentality pervade everything.

 

[mid_gen]

Odd that you seem to be the only one having that problem.

I categorically am not the only person having such problems. Hit up the search function if you like.

 

[Bains]

Err, yes? I was just posting my opinion on the current state of ED and saying I'm looking forward to trying SC.

It is possible to like both games



I am simply a gamer, enjoying (or looking forward to enjoying) two different games, for different reasons. I would rather you didn't go putting your 'fan' labels on me, though I guess it's just the tribal way of game communities to have this 'us v them' mentality pervade everything.

Sorry mate. I'm not getting dragged into this. I've only just got out of the slammer. 30 days and the big lifetime ban for my next offence. As such I'm sure you'll understand if I leave you to find someone else who'd like to play.

Laters guys.

@ Coda - I'm your biggest fan!