Exploits are boring and they twist perception about game into something it's not

[sollisb]

Hello Commander sollisb!



Actually, we've buffed Kill Warrant scanners, in the near future.

Well then you are my hero

I know you probably expected this... Does 'near' equate to 'soon'?

KWS hit me exactly where I play most, possibly 90% of my time was in HazRez, that's just no fun now.

PS: Skimmer Missions are fine til then Just ignore them.. You can fix them in the 'near' future

<o

 

[Pville_Piper]

And truth be told; if fdev created engaging, rewarding and fun gameplay, we wouldn't need to resort to piling the credits in. But no, they make everything as difficult and long-winded as possible, leaving us frustrated and deflated at the effort we put in.

Ok, why do play it? Is there a lack of games that give you fun, rewarding gameplay or are you a masochist? Enquiring minds need to know...

 

[Roybe]

Since we always fight and disagree with each other I doubt that listening to us is a good idea.

"Go left."
"No, go right!"
"Shut up everyone, don't go at all!"

I just throw my hands up and scream:

Spoiler

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It could equally be said that high rebuys, slow progress, gameplay gateways all also erode the community. Those have been the largest complaints about the game since day one.

It also has been my disclaimers and warnings everybody taking on ED. Never had illusions it is mainstream game. It never was and never will be. It is about people wanting to try something different, other than fast food gaming we have accessible to us these days.

Actually FD has never been sorry about that.

Either all those people are wrong, and Frontier ignore them. Or Frontier see merit in their arguments and re-balance the game.

Of course it is not binary. What I say is more of emotional statement, FD can extract lot of useful information even from these regular exploit threads, but overall it is becoming a bit tiresome.

This argument is not about some form of imaginary subjective idea of what "Elite gameplay is meant to be". It's about objective fact, and how Frontier has game developers can hammer the game into a form that pleases as many people as possible, whilst still retaining as much of the original design as possible.

Objective fact ED has certain design, and it is designed to be played in certain way. It allows lot of creative freedom for players to approach solving tasks they have acquired, but overall it certainly follows certain path. Any other path would be fundamentally very different game and not ED.

Fact some people try to make it something different doesn't change that. It is also not FD task to change ED into something else. And FD devs certainly has to be applauded for being rather flexible with approaching radically different ideas and how to make them work in ED.

But at the end of the day exploits like these are hugely game breaking and really outside realm of 'how to make ED real for players and devs' discussion.

The use of these "exploits", highlights the cracks in game design, anyone observing this objectively can see that.

Not really. It is human nature. There are part of communities which will always be keen to exploit game. It is ongoing theme with online games. People do it everywhere. That's really doesn't tell much what's good or bad in game. Actual personal feedback without all this 'fast track' nonsense is worth more to FD than echo chamber 'we deserve better payouts' chorus we get all the time on forums.

p.s. above doesn't say game is perfect. There's certainly regular issues with gameplay. However most of discussions I have heard is people wanting entirely different game than ED. I might be wrong as usual of course.

 

[Dagwit]

Ahhh classic threatening developers to leave.

Please DO leave. Don't say you will. Do. Why keep threatening and not doing it?

Or you afraid to find out that you are very niche group actually?

Actually, I have left once. Came back. Game survived, well for a time anyway, without me.

But please understand I'm not saying "FDev must favour my style of gameplay or else." I'm saying that FDev must do its best to favour as many playstyles as possible.

It would be a lot easier for the developers if they could just say, we'll make the game this. And then sandboxers would be happy and role-players and PvPers could go hang. Or roleplayers would rejoice and sandboxers would fume. Or PvPers would be happy and everyone who currently plays Solo would quit.

But as currently cobbled together the game manages to offer something to all three groups (none of which is exactly 'niche'). And I'm saying that for the financial health of the game the developers need to find way of keeping that breadth of appeal.

Ziggy, always glad to hear your opinion. I'm just saying that for reasons of boring commercial reality the devs don't have as much freedom to shape the game in the way they'd like as you might imagine.

 

[//Arkangel\\]

Well you must despise me then.

I had 381 hours logged on a mac before I got fed up of being a second hand citizen (what the point of getting a big ship to trade more when you lose all the outposts- no planetary landings etc)

So I was pleased when it came out on the PS4- starting again was a pain but at least I had the experience of the mac gameplay so I could progress faster than last time.

Now I've used Sothis and the latest skimmer missions to max out Fed rank and I have a very very healthy bank balance.

To you I must be the worst kind of player, a billionaire Admiral with only a few hundred hours (230) under my belt, to me these last few days it's like I've won the virtual Euromillions jackpot.

To me, now, the game has just opened up. I have no need to stick in one system to build rep to get missions that pay more credits to get the next upgrade for my ship.

I can (and will) go where I please. I don't have to worry about buying ships, buying modules, rebuy costs. I can cruise around taking in the scenery, investigate what I like without worrying about the time dependant mission I have ticking away in my hold.

Have some fun unlocking engineers and gathering minerals to further improve my game experience.

I have now got to a 'level' where the game works for me. I don't have the time to play the game constantly (work, life etc) so yes, I've jumped many hours of gameplay by using these shortcuts but now I will have many more enjoyable hours playing how I like without the worry ( and boring grind) about credits.

How will the way I play the game affect anyone else? Not one jot as I play in solo.

 

[AzraelDirge]

I want you to stop grinding and start playing the game. Stop chasing the rabbit. It does. not. exist. There's no golden pot at the end of this. If you can't enjoy moment, you won't enjoy ED.

Fact is I am bored of people going trough same motions again and again. What is this obsession with beating pinjatas?

My preferred playstyle requires a G5 engineered ship, a fat stack of creds, and does not pay at all. That is the reason I have to grind. Your idea of how to play the game is different than mine, and no amount of "Stop grinding! Just enjoy the ride!" will convince me to do things that bore me to death and don't get me closer to my goals. You claim there's no end of the rainbow, but the end of my rainbow looks a lot like a fully engineered FDL, plenty of rebuys, a cozy home in an Anarchy system, and pews at every CG alongside my friends.

 

[Lightspeed]

I think people will always justify usage of exploits because why not, I am just here for Cutter and why you say how I should blaze my own trail.

And that's fine. But eventually we all know exploits are boring. Yes, they might give you something to do in a game you don't click with or don't understand but you still want to fly some of ships for some reason. But overall they won't solve your issues with game.

I just wonder - why do it? Why keep piling at it? There's so much fun in the world to do anything else if you don't enjoy small things in game.

All this does is create some alternate universe for people who don't really don't want to be here.

I think they want to be here ..... for now .... to milk the credits and see how far up the credit tree they can get ... and to be able to afford every ship possible, but there will come a time when they will get bored with that and, because they have so much spare cash, will see every mission, every CG, every reward for anything as completely insignificant. Many will then see the game as thin, without substance, lacking opportunity and reward ..... and either complain here, write a rant thread and quit ..... or just fade away.

Truly, if all the game has for someone is to make credits and buy stuff, it will not and cannot hold their attention for long. Just so long as the game is not modified in some way to accomodate their later complaints, they really will have made their own way in the galaxy, and won't have affected me at all ..... unless .... and there is a big 'if' here in the future ..... the formation of Squadrons requires lots of credits. If they interact with my playing with their squadrons, then their money-milking will truly affect my own game in Open in a very big way.

 

[[VR] Zakk]

I still agree with you, that high credit balance renders bounty fees a bit meaningless.

Adopting the Scandinavian system might help here. Don't apply fixed fines, but make them a percentage of your net worth.

A 100,000 CR fine will set a new commander back quite a bit, whereas a rich commander wouldn't even notice it.
A "5% of your net worth" fine would hit both of them equally.

Other than that, I threw a few more C&P ideas around about a year ago (forum link), but they don't seem to have caught on.

 

[sollisb]

It could equally be said that high rebuys, slow progress, gameplay gateways all also erode the community. Those have been the largest complaints about the game since day one.

Either all those people are wrong, and Frontier ignore them. Or Frontier see merit in their arguments and re-balance the game.

This argument is not about some form of imaginary subjective idea of what "Elite gameplay is meant to be". It's about objective fact, and how Frontier as game developers can hammer the game into a form that pleases as many people as possible, whilst still retaining as much of the original design as possible.

The use of these "exploits", highlights the cracks in game design, anyone observing this objectively can see that.

if I may drag on your tailcoats

We need to see a game developing that allows players to progress at a steady pace, with equality in all facets of the game play. We can take 3 of the top, trade, exploration and bounty hunting. We must always bear in mind that everyone is not the Red Baron reincarniated. We must appease all levels. If it means moving high level required content into newer zones, resource sites etc, then so be it.

From the get go, we had low, high, and Haz. Everyone knew what they meant. However, the game as emerged as every resource site must have content that is just engagable by new players or ungineered ships. The new engineered ships should have been moved to another resource site, where you knew, you enter at your own risk.

Equally, the other missions need to be balanced as rewarding versus the risk or time involved. Example here is the long range Pax Missions; They paid well, but took a long time. I saw no issue with that. You got rewarded for not being able to anything else. Likewise, the skimmer missions, while I think they should probably limit the max to 10 at a time, there is still a risk. I got attacked by cops yesterday. I also created a rather large bounty. Where the balance is needed is in the amount you can earn in any role, on a per hour basis or some arbitrary time scale.

Making things difficult to do, and then not rewarding is not good for the game health, or indeed the health of the players. Everything should be fun, maybe risky, and maybe lethal. The reward should reflect that. How-ever, it should never be so lethal as to be impossible.

3.0 is in someways, a great step forward, and a few steps backwards. The new graphics are amazing; The new C&P is good, but in my opinion, a little too unforgiving. For sure punish murder death kill big time, but silly mistakes should be dealth with, with cannon balls.

There are many things that could be added and improved. I believe it can all be done. But, nothing should be done that adds annoyance. I seriously want an ED where I want to login and play, not one where I'm thinking, I'll play for an hour and see how the Gods of Randomness are treating me tonight.

<o

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

For instance, these exploits made the punishment part of C&P quite the pickle. Can't just have monetary punishments now since they would be either too harsh for those not making use of exploits or too lenient for those who do.

And for the n+1th time, Frontier decides how the game should be played. Not the forum people.

i agree with this...... however this is 1 thing FD could do to at least START the ball rolling to get the economy back in check, and it has its feet rooted in reality as well.

link the bounty punishments for (some) crimes linked to a percentage of your assets.. that way the cost to the player will always be something like equivalent and it will always sting. I cant think of any other way really if the bounty is to mean something..... too high and it will be utterly disastrous to poor players, too low and once you get beyond an hr or so in the game it will be meaningless.

(i am sure there is a fable in the bible or some other such book of fairy tales about this)

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Actually, I have left once. Came back. Game survived, well for a time anyway, without me.

But please understand I'm not saying "FDev must favour my style of gameplay or else." I'm saying that FDev must do its best to favour as many playstyles as possible.

I really doubt it is possible though.

Overall I can understand 'arcade ship fight game' fans. It just feels ED is so radically different that it almost pains to see them suffering....

And while it does not impact my gameplay directly, we all certainly feel it.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Not really. It is human nature. There are part of communities which will always be keen to exploit game. It is ongoing theme with online games. People do it everywhere. That's really doesn't tell much what's good or bad in game. Actual personal feedback without all this 'fast track' nonsense is worth more to FD than echo chamber 'we deserve better payouts' chorus we get all the time on forums.

There's been plenty of feedback outside of the "fast track" posts, and Frontier have listened to all of that, hence the entire concept of Beyond. A year or two ago, certainly people would have argued that a revamp of core game mechanics was unnecessary. Yet Frontier listened and agreed it needed to change - so here we are.

Personally, I don't sit here worrying about any of the nonsense posts "people on the forums" make. There are plenty of constructive and informative posts here about why people use these "gold-rushes". Perhaps too any people chose to ignore those constructive well thought out posts, and instead focus on those "I wants my monies" posts, and so end up with a slanted view on what is actually going on.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I think they want to be here ..... for now .... to milk the credits and see how far up the credit tree they can get ... and to be able to afford every ship possible, but there will come a time when they will get bored with that and, because they have so much spare cash, will see every mission, every CG, every reward for anything as completely insignificant. Many will then see the game as thin, without substance, lacking opportunity and reward ..... and either complain here, write a rant thread and quit ..... or just fade away.

Truly, if all the game has for someone is to make credits and buy stuff, it will not and cannot hold their attention for long. Just so long as the game is not modified in some way to accomodate their later complaints, they really will have made their own way in the galaxy, and won't have affected me at all ..... unless .... and there is a big 'if' here in the future ..... the formation of Squadrons requires lots of credits. If they interact with my playing with their squadrons, then their money-milking will truly affect my own game in Open in a very big way.

I can agree on that. However it reminds to be seen how Squadrons will integrate in larger game and what FD want and even can allow them to do and what kind of impact they can have.

There's been plenty of feedback outside of the "fast track" posts, and Frontier have listened to all of that, hence the entire concept of Beyond. A year or two ago, certainly people would have argued that a revamp of core game mechanics was unnecessary. Yet Frontier listened and agreed it needed to change - so here we are.

Personally, I don't sit here worrying about any of the nonsense posts "people on the forums" make. There are plenty of constructive and informative posts here about why people use these "gold-rushes". Perhaps too any people chose to ignore those constructive well thought out posts, and instead focus on those "I wants my monies" posts, and so end up with a slanted view on what is actually going on.

Well said.

Yeah, I am easily triggered by these I guess. Back to work/doing something productive

 

[sollisb]

Objective fact ED has certain design, and it is designed to be played in certain way. It allows lot of creative freedom for players to approach solving tasks they have acquired, but overall it certainly follows certain path. Any other path would be fundamentally very different game and not ED.

And this is where the huge mistake is !!

ED is and never was about imposing limits on the player. To do so, goes against the very essence of the original Elite. Ask anyone who has played it. Elite never stopped you. You could do what you liked.

The problem is (some) people want it to be a different game altogether.

 

[Aashenfox]

How will the way I play the game affect anyone else? Not one jot as I play in solo.

While I love your post and its ethos, and I agree, I must play devil's advocate and point out the error you are making here. Despite playing in solo, everything you do has an impact on the BGS. For example, you may decide to take a fervent dislike to the bible basher faction near Sol, and taking your shiny corvette or cutter over there and cutting swathes through a CZ may have a seriously adverse effect on that faction in terms of the BGS. By doing it in solo you give the other BGS players no opportunity to stop you, plus the fact that you wouldn't have a ship capable of parking in a CZ if you hadn't exploited, your exploits are having a notable impact on other people's (sic: everyone's) game.

I still say that's arbitrary and shouldn't matter though, I'm completely on your side, I just felt the need to point that out, because people saying exploits in solo don't affect others usually haven't properly considered the actual consequences in game mechanics.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy, always glad to hear your opinion. I'm just saying that for reasons of boring commercial reality the devs don't have as much freedom to shape the game in the way they'd like as you might imagine.

There is an aspect of that, and there's an aspect of incorporating customer feedback. But the customer feedback would need to be homogeneous for it to actually push one way or another. And I don't see much consensus on the matter. And even if there was, I also do think Frontier is hesitant to implement a design by committee structure.

To me it seems as if Frontier has a direction where they are planning to go, and uses the feedback to deviate a little bit, but never let it fully determine the direction. If you look at the new engineering process and the requirement to go through each level, there was quite a bit of feedback in that regard. But it Frontier stuck to it's guns there. And perhaps they're right to do so.

 

[signal11th]

Because *they* then grow bored as predicted and come on forums and try to bend game into something it's not or have been intended.

If they just exploited and owned that, I would care less. But someone reports exploit and gets hate threats on forums....nope, it is not just my opinion.

Yeah but who really listens to anyone on the forums... it's like the same 100 people out of how many..and yes I include myself in this.

 

[sollisb]

Game is long and was planned to be long since beginning. It is space commander life simulator in essence. Said that, current progression path is very, very fast. You don't need end game ships to feel rewarded. That's perception you have created for yourself.

Actually no.. The game was not meant to be long. The game was meant to be a universe where you were your own master. The longevity of the development, ie: the ongoing creation of the game was meant to be long. Two entirely different things.

What you are tryign to do is limit player activity to how you want it to be. Where-as the Game 'Elite' was never about limitations. You just cannot have 'blaze your own trail' but only 'do it our way'

And there-in lies the biggest issue. Players wants freedom, but you (other camp) want to limit them, because it in some way ruins your ideas. If you (other camp) just played your own game, there would be no issues.

There is no 'long' in E there is no end game. From day 1 we had 'get into an Anaconda in 24 hours'. Wherever there are measurable credits/points/levels/numbers you will have min/maxing. Thats the way gamers are. Just because you don't like it, in no way infers it is wrong. What would be more correct would be for FDev to cater to all.

 

[//Arkangel\\]

While I love your post and its ethos, and I agree, I must play devil's advocate and point out the error you are making here. Despite playing in solo, everything you do has an impact on the BGS. For example, you may decide to take a fervent dislike to the bible basher faction near Sol, and taking your shiny corvette or cutter over there and cutting swathes through a CZ may have a seriously adverse effect on that faction in terms of the BGS. By doing it in solo you give the other BGS players no opportunity to stop you, plus the fact that you wouldn't have a ship capable of parking in a CZ if you hadn't exploited, your exploits are having a notable impact on other people's (sic: everyone's) game.

I still say that's arbitrary and shouldn't matter though, I'm completely on your side, I just felt the need to point that out, because people saying exploits in solo don't affect others usually haven't properly considered the actual consequences in game mechanics.

Good to know actually. I had just assumed that solo was just that. I can see how that works, the Galaxy can't revolve just around me

I promise not to misuse the power I've 'stolen'