[Video] The need for credits & unrewarding gameplay

[dm0815]

Trouble is the FD team think that 1000cr is a lot of credits, when really its just lose change, if the credits rewards were a bit higher, ,,,,,,No wait! a lot higher, it would be worth doing more things in game, the payouts just don't give you enough incentive to do anything.

Or they could bring their price scaling for ships and modules in line. Sometimes I think they took a Sidewinder and the module prices for that ship, applied x^2 to it and all other ships and called it a day.

Disclaimer: Yeah that's hyperbole, I didn't actually check that

 

[Muetdhiver]

Exactly.

I get the notion that Mr. Yamiks, while making fun videos, just jumps on the zeitgeist of the moment. When Rewards are the only way to measure fun, the point of 'playing' a 'game' is lost.

I don't really think so. Beating the grind dead horse is basicaly a recurring gag at this point.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Great vid as usual commander, thank you o7

 

[vidslo]

This approach to the grind conversation is so tired. It's at the point where I don't know if people are being disingenuous or completely naive.

I'm not sure either, but I agree that it's tiring to hear the same thing repeated. Quite frankly, I just can't comprehend the need for other people to push "their way of playing" onto everyone else.

I really don't care how other people want to play, there's obvious limits to that, but with C&P changes, I really fail to see how someone else's "fast" earning of a ship will have any negative consequences to me.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

https://youtu.be/g1TSDOTEbAg

Also the planet in the end (if you had watched the video till the end you'd know already) was : Synuefe VM-D C15-10 2A

I just want a game thats fair. The rewards to be appropriate to the level and experiance of the player and those rewards seemlessly scale as you do.
Increase rewards to a point where they feel natural fair and rewarding for the activity, but at the same time stop the massive shortcut exploits which have basically seen dishonest players outstrip honest players, rendering any sense of progress within the game moot.

 

[kofeyh]

I just want a game thats fair. The rewards to be appropriate to the level and experiance of the player and those rewards seemlessly scale as you do.
Increase rewards to a point where they feel natural fair and rewarding for the activity, but at the same time stop the massive shortcut exploits which have basically seen dishonest players outstrip honest players, rendering any sense of progress within the game moot.

The thing is, this just creates acceleration. Which is fine, but understand as people pick up speed, unless you keep pace, they will leave you behind and the same basic argument (it’s not fair) will surface. Is this more it’s not fair people can have different priorities (one of which is credits) or not fair they get there first (ie they should play the same way and take 6 years to progress).

The game is designed to allow people to (to a degree) progress to ships and credits really as fast or as slow as they want. I’m all for escalating profit over time as people gain more. But that already tends to happen.

And limiting wealth creation to the 1%, isn’t an ideal to strive for. It really isn’t. But we already know that.

So I’m not sure what fair is to you. We won’t all run at the same speed. And the game forcing people to all run at the same speed, regardless of what they do, isn’t intrinsically fair.

 

[kofeyh]

Ah Yamiks, always good to see you beat that dead horse some more. You make fine points, as usual.

 

[Kyr One]

Why doesn't FD do the obvious thing and just hire Yamiks to fix everything!?

 

[DrBo42]

I just want a game thats fair. The rewards to be appropriate to the level and experiance of the player and those rewards seemlessly scale as you do.
Increase rewards to a point where they feel natural fair and rewarding for the activity, but at the same time stop the massive shortcut exploits which have basically seen dishonest players outstrip honest players, rendering any sense of progress within the game moot.

If the main fun of the game or sense of accomplishment and resulting satisfaction is determined by how long it took you to go from a Sidewinder to X ship then there's a problem. Chastizing people cutting through the monotony of credit and rep rewards/ranks gain to get where they want to be is absurd. If the core gameplay loop is engaging and fun regardless of how many or few hours you play that's the important determining factor of a great game. Unfortunately though that core isn't there for some career types for a pretty sizable amount of people.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I'm not sure either, but I agree that it's tiring to hear the same thing repeated. Quite frankly, I just can't comprehend the need for other people to push "their way of playing" onto everyone else.

I really don't care how other people want to play, there's obvious limits to that, but with C&P changes, I really fail to see how someone else's "fast" earning of a ship will have any negative consequences to me.

I don't personally care about how much money anyone has, but I do wonder if those who want 'enough to do what they want' are mainly pvpers who just want the biggest engineered ship so they can continually get blown up without any consequences in some sort of Elite Arena (irony optional). There's undoubtedly a core of players trying to scratch a space pew pew itch that only ED goes some way to scratching (as the alternatives are limited) and because it's not as they like it we get a lot of salt.

Now that might be fine as a choice of playstyle, even if it avoids the general essence of the game, but maybe some perspective is required when discussing this issue.

 

[kofeyh]

I don't personally care about how much money anyone has, but I do wonder if those who want 'enough to do what they want' are mainly pvpers who just want the biggest engineered ship so they can continually get blown up without any consequences in some sort of Elite Arena (irony optional). There's undoubtedly a core of players trying to scratch a space pew pew itch that only ED goes some way to scratching (as the alternatives are limited) and because it's not as they like it we get a lot of salt.

Now that might be fine as a choice of playstyle, even if it avoids the general essence of the game, but maybe some perspective is required when discussing this issue.

You don’t personally care, then call in to question the motive of anyone wanting to earn credits. Really? Think your logic is flawed there.

Credits equate to choice. Nothing more. That’s it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

You don’t personally care, then call in to question the motive of anyone wanting to earn credits. Think your logic is flawed there.

I'm offering an opinion on why I think some people want so many credits. I've seen many posts talking about just wanting to pew pew without consequences. It's an interesting area of discussion.

 

[Barking_Mad]

You don’t personally care, then call in to question the motive of anyone wanting to earn credits. Really? Think your logic is flawed there.

Credits equate to choice. Nothing more. That’s it.

But many people have choice without billions of credits. So it's interesting to discuss why this is within the context of the game.

 

[vidslo]

I don't personally care about how much money anyone has, but I do wonder if those who want 'enough to do what they want' are mainly pvpers who just want the biggest engineered ship so they can continually get blown up without any consequences in some sort of Elite Arena (irony optional). There's undoubtedly a core of players trying to scratch a space pew pew itch that only ED goes some way to scratching (as the alternatives are limited) and because it's not as they like it we get a lot of salt.

Now that might be fine as a choice of playstyle, even if it avoids the general essence of the game, but maybe some perspective is required when discussing this issue.

I understand that, I'm not a PvP'er, I simply want to have fun and enjoy the game as I have been for nearly 2 years.

Don't get me wrong, the credit 'cash cow' payouts were very high and very likely don't need to be like that, but there has to be some level of balance. The reason these cash cows got so much attention is because of the massive delta between the 'regular' missions and these situations. Given that people knew a nerf would be inbound, they flock to them and earn as much as possible to 'stock up', even PvE'ers.

It's a complicated issue, and I'm glad Fdev is working on it. I hope they find a good middle ground that can give the majority of players the balance that is needed.

 

[kofeyh]

But many people have choice without billions of credits. So it's interesting to discuss why this is within the context of the game.

Sure. But without billions, that choice can limit ship selection. And I think you’ll find the crux of the issue is actually choice. Because if people have choice, they can play as they see fit, not as someone else does.

If people don’t have choice, then they are all forced to play the same way. Are you quite certain that couldn’t possibly be a factor?

 

[Vasco Sapien]

The thing is, this just creates acceleration. Which is fine, but understand as people pick up speed, unless you keep pace, they will leave you behind and the same basic argument (it’s not fair) will surface. Is this more it’s not fair people can have different priorities (one of which is credits) or not fair they get there first (ie they should play the same way and take 6 years to progress).

The game is designed to allow people to (to a degree) progress to ships and credits really as fast or as slow as they want. I’m all for escalating profit over time as people gain more. But that already tends to happen.

So I’m not sure what fair is to you. We won’t all run at the same speed. And the game forcing people to all run at the same speed, isn’t intrinsically fair.

Its not... people can earn faster than others if they are smarter or luckier but the speed at which they can earn is limited. no one should be able to earn 300 million an hour or rank to Imperial king in 2 hours. your statement here is suggesting that progress speed in ED is limitless by design, but its not... unless you use exploits which are not by design.

I dont underatand the sentiment of being left behind because you have done less or just started, being unfair.

-

Think of a meal served with small portions that you take the time to savour until you are full. Not a Glut buffet surrounded by rampaging fat people.
If the game is portioned out, people wont get indigestion.


I feel that this games needs progress milestones.. maybe its the lack of structured leveling in ED that drives the player base to look for the fastest way to level to the perceived top and so typically seek out exploits. If the game was divided up into portions that people work their way through then players will play to work through a portion to then progress to the next.

Ship class licences for example... small, medium, large... This way players work through the ships, get to know the ships and the game as they go. instead of just leapfrogging over most of them as they exploit through the road to riches.

If im currently on a small ship licence, then i dont need to earn BILLIONS of credits in mere hours.. because i dont need that much to run my small ship.
Once ive made my way to the larger ships i can honestly feel a sense of accomplishment because im in the big leagues and obviously money will be easier to make.
You have to visit Founders world and the pilots federation to buy your next licence level with a decal for your ship.

Maybe introduce licence paths for different careers... Explorer, trader, Fighter... these career paths fast track access to ships, modules and engineers that help that career path progress.

--

Maybe Missions for Elite rank payouts should also only be available to Elite ranked players (and so on.... all the way down the rank chain). Elite missions should not even present to lower ranked players.

If im Novice... and on a small ship licence, then earning 300k credits for a mission is big money for me and feels satisfying within my current station in the game. I work my way through to medium ships and tycoon rank and suddenly im earning 1million+ credit missions and it feels like im getting there..

If the payouts where also improved for the type of activity... The amount paid should feel right for the work performed. Right now RNG can set you up with an Elite ranked mission and offer you peanuts for the hastle. It will offer you a full mission board filled with missions that you cannot take because you dont have the right ship with you or they are not the activities you are seeking to play (even when you are in the right system economy under the right political conditions). The RNG will give you nothing but Harmless ranked delivery missions for 1000cr when you are a tripple Elite commander in a Fully armed and operational Federal corvette looking for blood.

The grind is aggrivated by poor payouts, unmatched ranked mission, unrelated mission generation, (the need to fart about finding whats worth your time... which then wastes your time) a gulf of credits to be earned ahead of you without structure that you feel obligated to rush through at any cost.

People keep saying... 'Play it your way'... 'The game is designed this way'... 'Anything is possible'....

Well i'd argue that the game needs some redesign and these statements maybe keep the game stuck where it is.... not working and cheating being the only way to enjoy yourself.

 

[Yamiks]

Playing is its own reward. Players are only focusing on whatever target they've set themselves, rather than going out there and flying a miracle of a spaceship.
It's a game, it's fun. Only a player can turn it into a job.

I woudn't say playing is it's own reward.. see a game is piece of entertainment.. it's suppose to entertain you rather thna you should make your own entertainment instead of it!
Sure ED gives tools for fun but these tools often need to be behind a grind wall!

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Why doesn't FD do the obvious thing and just hire Yamiks to fix everything!?

Space Loaches.

 

[Pyrotiger]

I see the nerf doctor is back in the house.

Yamiks can you like do a vid on poverty, death, chlamydia...wouldn't mind them being nerfed, too.

 

[Mohrgan]

I woudn't say playing is it's own reward.. see a game is piece of entertainment.. it's suppose to entertain you rather thna you should make your own entertainment instead of it!
Sure ED gives tools for fun but these tools often need to be behind a grind wall!

Some of us control the 'grind wall', rather than letting it control us. All of the resources and opportunities are available to everyone. Just like one has to protect themselves from other players, and NPC's alike, by staying alert, and equiping their ships properly, so to do they need to protect themselves from the temptations of burn out. Take responsibility for your own gaming experience, and you will not tire yourself out trying to climb the 'grind wall'.