The Star Citizen Thread V2.0

[psyron]

Since i didn't understand where the fun lies in AC i looked around for some explanations from SC fans. I stumbled over this video.

The only scenario where i can see some fun is when having a lot of large objects floating around in space which one could use to hide from the shots of others. But wait a minute! This is exactly the way FPS games work: You sneak towards your enemy using obstacles to hide, shot him and then rush back behind some larger objects.

But there is a very little problem with that kind of gameplay:
You don't always have something to hide in space. Even worse. Most time space is quite empty!

The result is turret in space and the bigger weapon wins. Nearly no skills involved.
Still waiting for explanations where "fun" is meant to come from with the current flight model in AC.

Edit:
And i guess this is the main reason why they put so many objects in AC in the first place. Without all those objects AC wouldn't be fun to play at all. So they had to create an environment that fits the flight model. Oh dear, headache again.

Edit 2:
I mean "Capture the Core" in space ... seriously ... and next will be a space race on a racetrack! Oh dear ... how much more arcady SC can become?!

 

[Zyll Goliat]

So they have plenty of spare time to add new game modes for AC in this current state?I guess 6dof is forgotten story,after seeing this I just can't believe that CIG will do any significant change in flight mechanics.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

I had a blast with the new game mode yesterday It's a lot of fun and requires quite the teamwork. They also seem to have added a lot of little rocks and stuff so you have to watch where you are flying. When you are the core holder there is some pressure on you.

So they have plenty of spare time to add new game modes for AC in this current state?I guess 6dof is forgotten story,after seeing this I just can't believe that CIG will do any significant change in flight mechanics.

Capture the Core was being worked on for sometime I remember.

From a May report.

Art has been focusing on Capture the Core visual effects. We have been experimenting with the lightning entities; it’s early in the process, but it shows signs of being a pretty cool visual effect that we can use in future AC drops!

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...13883-Arena-Commander-Weekly-Report-May-12-16

From the June report.

Capture the Core and Conquest mode assets are being readied for release to the public.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13993-Monthly-Report-June-2014

 

[Voivod]

I think the ED vs SC antagonism disappears when you notice that ED is going the space sim route and SC is going the space arcade route.

And there you have it...Universal peace.

 

[Neo-ST]

I think the ED vs SC antagonism disappears when you notice that ED is going the space sim route and SC is going the space arcade route.

There shall be no peace
But really, ED is going space sim route, SC is trying to go space sim route, but fails. For now.

 

[Vargur]

I think the ED vs SC antagonism disappears when you notice that ED is going the space sim route and SC is going the space arcade route.

And there you have it...Universal peace.

It's really an odd situation.

ED (ship) gameplay is technically arcade, but feels real sim like.
SC is technically more realistic, but feels more arcade.

 

[1500]

So I wonder how many FPS game modes CIG will implement into AC before they get around to making the PU? Speaking of that, man I want to play Timesplitters 2, so much fun.


Back when I was playing EVE online, my corp played a game similar to capture the flag. We would split into teams with a range of both Frig and Cruiser, with only ECM/nos/newt/cap/ab equipment (no weapons). A canister was dropped in the middle of the playing area, and the team that was able to move it to their goal area would get a point. Point is that when the game gives the players tools, they will make up games. Perhaps CIG should focus on making a real game and not FPS with airplanes, i mean space ships


So reading comments its very clear that at the moment double precision is the savior of SC, and when that gets implemented everything will be better. I find it odd that everyone just assumes that CIG can convert the engine when that is not a done deal. I also have to wonder what will be the next savior when double precision turns out to not be the magic answer to all of SC's problems.

 

[psyron]

I think the ED vs SC antagonism disappears when you notice that ED is going the space sim route and SC is going the space arcade route.

And there you have it...Universal peace.

Yeah, i am fine with calling SC the BDSAE!
But the BDSSE will definitely be Elite Dangerous!

 

[dumbo]

ED (ship) gameplay is technically arcade, but feels real sim like.
SC is technically more realistic, but feels more arcade.

Personally, I hope the 'realism' terminology dies quickly.
SC seems to be aiming for a flight model similar to new-series BSG space flight.
ED seems to have a model more similar to original-series BSG with some B5 elements.

In terms of realism, they're both complete nonsense .... although anyone buying a futuristic space flight sim for realism is perhaps a bit silly.

Immersive is a good term for a game. Realistic is a good term for simulator. These are primarily games - please use 'immersive'.

 

[1500]

It's really an odd situation.

ED (ship) gameplay is technically arcade, but feels real sim like.
SC is technically more realistic, but feels more arcade.

Ya but does the underlying system matter? I mean most of the old space sims did not have realistic physics under the hood. The sim in "space sim" has never meant simulation, that is why its shortened. You could make Mario Brothers with real physics calculations being made, it would not make it anything more than an arcade game.

Ultimately unless you are going full blown simulation (even SC is not trying for that), what is being done under the hood really does not matter. The only thing that matters is if the game play is fun and feels right for the game.


edit: Realistic is nothing more than a marketing term used for PR, its the current buzz word, along with immersion.

 

[marx]

The sim in "space sim" has never meant simulation, that is why its shortened.

Out of curiosity, what does "sim" stand for then?

I believe that the correct terminology for both Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous would be "space combat / trading games". Doesn't really roll off the tongue though, now does it.

 

[SuperG]

Ya but does the underlying system matter? I mean most of the old space sims did not have realistic physics under the hood. The sim in "space sim" has never meant simulation, that is why its shortened. You could make Mario Brothers with real physics calculations being made, it would not make it anything more than an arcade game.

Ultimately unless you are going full blown simulation (even SC is not trying for that), what is being done under the hood really does not matter. The only thing that matters is if the game play is fun and feels right for the game.


edit: Realistic is nothing more than a marketing term used for PR, its the current buzz word, along with immersion.

No, "sim" is just short for simulation. Why it is just lazyness. Same as sci- fi.
Because it just a public unofficial accepted shorting.

Your "simulating space craft in a science fictional setting."

With current realife stand. We are not in space era where there is Trading combat colonisation in space. We missing very crusial technical break trough a dozen or so.
This is so obviouus. That for laziness you can leave the sci fi out of it.

So space sim is very clear that you simulate a fictional tech level fictional space craft in fictional setting.


So it exualy correct that your simulating. But it are fictional rulez.

With that ED and SC are unreal.
Make it difficult is not simulating. The real thing can be much easier.

Space sim is correct, because you ask What do we simulate. So the contex is crusial. Is it the collision of adromeda vs milky way to compute if there would or could be some or a lot star collisions on super computer with time accelerator of factor of few milion

Or is it in context of a game ED. You know that it is fictional. Or kerbal less fictional.

 

[1500]

No, "sim" is just short for simulation. Why it is just lazyness. Same as sci- fi.
Because it just a public unofficial accepted shorting.

Your "simulating space craft in a science fictional setting."

With current realife stand. We are not in space era where there is Trading combat colonisation in space. We missing very crusial technical break trough a dozen or so.
This is so obviouus. That for laziness you can leave the sci fi out of it.

So space sim is very clear that you simulate a fictional tech level fictional space craft in fictional setting.


So it exualy correct that your simulating. But it are fictional rulez.

With that ED and SC are unreal.
Make it difficult is not simulating. The real thing can be much easier.

Space sim is correct, because you ask What do we simulate. So the contex is crusial. Is it the collision of adromeda vs milky way to compute if there would or could be some or a lot star collisions on super computer with time accelerator of factor of few milion

Or is it in context of a game ED. You know that it is fictional. Or kerbal less fictional.

Sorry I disagree, you might be "simulating" space ships but you really are not. No more than Mario Brothers is simulating a fat guy jumping around. By your definition every single game is a simulation.

 

[Toumal]

The sim in "space sim" has never meant simulation, that is why its shortened.

Sorry but... no. This silly notion started when SC fans realized that the simulation aspects of SC are, to be polite, very lightweight. So now we're being told that the "sim" stands not for simulation but for... uh... nothing? Or does it actually mean this:

So no. "Space Sim" and "Space Simulation" are one and the same thing. Just because your game is a little less about the realism and a little more about the fun and gameplay, doesn't mean there's a classification scheme that now reads Sim for your title, instead of Simulation.

And technically, AC is a 3D space shooter, ED is a space trade, roleplay and combat game, and SC will eventually also have the whole "everything other than shooting" bit. Hopefully.

Can you call both games a "Space Sim"? Sure, why not. But inventing a differentiation between sim and simulation is just silly.

 

[1500]

Sorry but... no. This silly notion started when SC fans realized that the simulation aspects of SC are, to be polite, very lightweight. So now we're being told that the "sim" stands not for simulation but for... uh... nothing? Or does it actually mean this:

So no. "Space Sim" and "Space Simulation" are one and the same thing. Just because your game is a little less about the realism and a little more about the fun and gameplay, doesn't mean there's a classification scheme that now reads Sim for your title, instead of Simulation.

And technically, AC is a 3D space shooter, ED is a space trade, roleplay and combat game, and SC will eventually also have the whole "everything other than shooting" bit. Hopefully.

Can you call both games a "Space Sim"? Sure, why not. But inventing a differentiation between sim and simulation is just silly.

Then like I said, then every game becomes a simulation.

 

[Fivebyfive]

Since i didn't understand where the fun lies in AC i looked around for some explanations from SC fans. I stumbled over this video.

The only scenario where i can see some fun is when having a lot of large objects floating around in space which one could use to hide from the shots of others. But wait a minute! This is exactly the way FPS games work: You sneak towards your enemy using obstacles to hide, shot him and then rush back behind some larger objects.

That's pretty much it. All the tactics I see mentioned on the official forums revolve around hiding behind obstacles and popping out again to shoot.

The rest is people circle strafing at instant speeds and having an attrition gunfight.

It really made me nostalgic for some good old counterstrike beta.

 

[Toumal]

That's pretty much it. All the tactics I see mentioned on the official forums revolve around hiding behind obstacles and popping out again to shoot.

The rest is people circle strafing at instant speeds and having an attrition gunfight.

It really made me nostalgic for some good old counterstrike beta.

You know, that's pretty much why I think we don't see a large variety of "maps" in AC yet. The moment you go out to actual "space", instead of around some group of obstacles in space, there would not be much gameplay and tactics left.

 

[Renideo]

It is always weird when realism is brought into it. You can have a lot of different outcomes from the same basic physical principles assuming different ship masses, distribution of mass, thruster power and allocation of power among the thrusters, positioning, etc.

Obviously there are a number of elements that are outright unrealistic in the flight models of both games.

I think ED has been fairly 'on the record' about the flight model being unrealistic and instead tailored to their desired gameplay outcome. Anyone who wants to argue that x is more realistic than y, therefore x is better than y in this context is really just groping for authority to back up their existing opinion.

That said, if you can get realism without hurting gameplay, that's fantastic. The more internally consistent the logic of the universe is, the better it feels for everyone, and as to the galaxy? The galactic realism (so far as it is possible) in ED is fantastic. It has some gameplay ramifications, such as supercruise (though, as it happens I like supercruise), but essentially it detracts from nothing. Personally, I'd say little things like the lack of artificial gravity, the rotating space stations and so on give the impression of a consistent universe, and I say impression because the mind sees that element of continuity and generalises, even though it tells us nothing about how consistent the world actually is.

Rendering the galaxy realistically doesn't prevent you from hand crafting core worlds, or having lore, or any of the other things that sometimes feature in the false dichotomy of 'story/lore driven vs procedural generation', it merely adds to it.

It can take resources away from doing other things, but, in the long run even if you keep improving that technology, the PG from which the galaxy springs is fundamentally automated, and your content focus can be elsewhere most of the time.

At its core though, I think it's a difference in the spirit and character of Elite, more than the featureset. The galaxy had to be there, or, all gameplay aside, it wouldn't feel like elite.

 

[Calebe]

After all this time when I read a post on the SC forum with these words:

please, take my money!!!!

I just shake my head and wonder what are people thinking. This was asking for real posters so people can buy them. I have no issue at all with that as you get something. It is the mind set. Anything or everything is wonderful and please take my money comments.

CIG has to read these, know the money train is not ending so the incentive for fluff over building the game becomes part of the thinking. So more fluff, means more money. Fish tank, fish, towels, posters, etc.. will mean nothing when you play the game, unless you spend all your time in the hangar? Build the damn game and do the fluff last. Won't happen as the fluff = $$$$$$. Meanwhile people like myself that invested in the game want the game made, and forget the extra money making fluff. Do not waste time on making sure the bathrooms work in ships, or the fish look realistic in the fish tank. Just get the game that was advertised made. A space game, do the fluff last.

Calebe

 

[Renideo]

I guess once ED get polished then even the argument of SC having better graphics will be obsolet.

Spoiler

I feel like a lot of the detail in elite just doesn't pop out at you as it does in SC. This by the way, is not an attack on elite, quite the reverse. I mean I think Elite was always a gorgeous game, it just feels like the visuals in SC grab your attention more swiftly and easily.

When Elite hits retail and has undergone all those revisions though, it definitely will be pretty glorious.