Stop killing immersion for the sake of Atari gameplay.

[M00ka]

Wrong.


I bought Elite, thinking it was going to be a more accessible/poor-man's Star Citizen. So far it's failed all of my hopes. Unless Braben can roll out at least space legs, then I'm sure a lot of us will be happier with SC

Well Elite is definitely more accessible that SC, you can play Elite but SC is still in the what, 30th iteration of Beta?

 

[Havvk]

Well Elite is definitely more accessible that SC, you can play Elite but SC is still in the what, 30th iteration of Beta?

Prolly the only thing that holds an advantage over SC's head, is Elite's good accessibility to a much broader spectrum of players.

 

[kofeyh]

I've dropped Elite a while ago, but returned as some steps in the right direction are clearly being made. The game started to give hope. But I am far from playing immersed as things are now.

Perhaps climb into a bath. Run some water. Maybe splash a little bit? mmm, there we go. Perfect. And the amazing thing? You can actually subtly adjust the level of immersion to be juuuuuust right for you. The right temperature, and everything. Ahh, that's smashing, init.

--

It is a game, not a way of life; confusing the two is quite common. There's suspending disbelief (by the game consistently fooling people; this is not easy to do) and then there's "I would like the game to be offline, and personalised for me alone because I am greedy and don't care about anyone else, but I can't quite admit to that on the forums". Understand. But be honest. People will respect it more.

This isn't going to happen; endlessly demanding it like a petulant child is popular, but somewhat unreliable in that Frontier has become pretty intractable.

 

[Cageman]

Turn-based gameplay was great, but they had to abandon it because graphical engine is too modern.

Wait... Whaat? So, if a game is looking great, the developers have to abandon turn-based mechanics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKcZwPb7C3k

Chess that actually was FUN to play, because of the graphics. Be aware that it is an old game, and it will look outdated to you, but, back then, it was state of the art. And... it made a TURN-BASED CLASSIC GAME FUN, just because of improvements of graphics.

EDIT: Ohh... I found a "modern" version of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDZuDFxa2jQ

 

[Havvk]

Wait... Whaat? So, if a game is looking great, the developers have to abandon turn-based mechanics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKcZwPb7C3k

Chess that actually was FUN to play, because of the graphics. Be aware that it is an old game, and it will look outdated to you, but, back then, it was state of the art. And... it made a TURN-BASED CLASSIC GAME FUN, just because of improvements of graphics.

EDIT: Ohh... I found a "modern" version of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDZuDFxa2jQ

Graphics are 50x worse than the original Chess.



Check-mate

 

[Vasious]

Actually if they listened to a reasonably toned suggestion i think the forums at least would look different.

Ah, I actually have an example of that. Two, in fact, in my own personal experience.

1. I suggested once that Alliance factions should be using their new toys, the Type-10 and the Chieftain, in combat zones. Alliance, and some Independent, factions now use those ships in combat zones. I've also been seeing them be used by Alliance Powerplay NPCs, and by bounty hunters.

2. I pointed out that the radial menus on the PS4 supply incorrect info. Not only did they fix that, but they revamped the look of them, at least when using the Thrustmaster 4.

I think the mistake made is assuming all suggested reasonably toned that are listens to will be implemented.

I would suggest in a reasonable tone a lot of things that wouldn't be worth the time to implement even if I think they are a good idea, and even if they have read idea and see why I think it is a good idea.

 

[CMDR MRMAURICE]

So what the OP is suggesting is that fdev make a specific game just for him?? Hahaha

 

[Cupsuki]

Oh yeah my immersion it's totally ruined!!

Why do I respawn when I die? What is this an Atari game?

Pfft don't even get me started on repairs, I want to wait a month to repair my ship!!! FRONTIER ARE YOU NOT LISTENING

Also I would totally love to have to pee in the middle of an engagement, come on FD this is not a kids game!!

/seriously though

Some games are just the way that they are and they are going to be made in the way the Developer wants to make them, I would love to fly a Cruiser in Halo, does that mean that the developers should do it? Hell no, they envisioned you being a soldier (albeit a walking talk) and that's what they give you because that's what the game it's meant to be. In Elite you're not supposed to be a Businessman owning properties and selling in the stock market, you're supposed to make your living in space. FD has stated multiple times that ED IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A SIMULATOR, naturally those who want a sim will not find it here and that's ok, that's how the industry works. Now autopilot sure there is no reason not to have it, other than it may be as perjudicial for some as it will be beneficial for others but what if FD doesn't want autopilot, have you thought about their side? I would alose love just kick back and relax on long trips but that's not the reality and nor do i feel FD is obligated to abide to my requests. They want to make their game in their way, and that will get a fan base that likes that game, it really seems that you want elite to be something else to fit your vision, and that's entirely ok. But that doesn't mean they are obligated to do what you want.

It's their game, their choices, if you like it that's awesome, if you don't then that's just how life is. You're probably looking for something else

Also if you're looking for 100% immersion as you state then you wouldn't have an FSD in the first place, just an FYI.

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Oh yeah my immersion it's totally ruined!!

Why do I respawn when I die? What is this an Atari game?

Pfft don't even get me started on repairs, I want to wait a month to repair my ship!!! FRONTIER ARE YOU NOT LISTENING

Also I would totally love to have to pee in the middle of an engagement, come on FD this is not a kids game!!

/seriously though

Some games are just the way that they are and they are going to be made in the way the Developer wants to make them, I would love to fly a Cruiser in Halo, does that mean that the developers should do it? Hell no, they envisioned you being a soldier (albeit a walking talk) and that's what they give you because that's what the game it's meant to be. In Elite you're not supposed to be a Businessman owning properties and selling in the stock market, you're supposed to make your living in space. FD has stated multiple times that ED IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A SIMULATOR, naturally those who want a sim will not find it here and that's ok, that's how the industry works. Now autopilot sure there is no reason not to have it, other than it may be as perjudicial for some as it will be beneficial for others but what if FD doesn't want autopilot, have you thought about their side? I would alose love just kick back and relax on long trips but that's not the reality and nor do i feel FD is obligated to abide to my requests. They want to make their game in their way, and that will get a fan base that likes that game, it really seems that you want elite to be something else to fit your vision, and that's entirely ok. But that doesn't mean they are obligated to do what you want.

It's their game, their choices, if you like it that's awesome, if you don't then that's just how life is. You're probably looking for something else

Also if you're looking for 100% immersion as you state then you wouldn't have an FSD in the first place, just an FYI.

Yeah, I suppose I've crammed too much inside the OP. But the main point of in is highlighted with the big font.

I wish FD would give everything they do with the game a reality check FIRST, rather than taking only "difficulty" and "time to achieve" parameters into account. Also, they have to understand that difficulty in a computer game should NOT have man-hours as its main measure.

Just try to give things they did so far one of those, without even considering adding new features. Material traders for example.
Maybe then you will see what I'm trying to say. And it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make them so they simply do not try to take more of your time or limit you at any cost for whatever ungodly reason.

Things on respawn, instant repair and cargo loading are there to make this game playable, althought I am all in for adding some realism for latter two, are here for the same reason as an absence of relativistic time and realistic movement models. That is, to make the game playable. Why this game have only two fire buttons and those rates at material traders then?

 

[kofeyh]

So what the OP is suggesting is that fdev make a specific game just for him?? Hahaha

Yes. Welcome to 98%^{[citation needed]} of all commentary within the Official Forums for Elite Dangerous.

In essence - almost every such argument can be suffixed with "- if this was an offline game.". Frontier made it online, and a large percentage of the people who 100% reject the TOS (but play anyway) will never forgive them for it.

 

[Vasious]

Ah, I actually have an example of that. Two, in fact, in my own personal experience.

1. I suggested once that Alliance factions should be using their new toys, the Type-10 and the Chieftain, in combat zones. Alliance, and some Independent, factions now use those ships in combat zones. I've also been seeing them be used by Alliance Powerplay NPCs, and by bounty hunters.

2. I pointed out that the radial menus on the PS4 supply incorrect info. Not only did they fix that, but they revamped the look of them, at least when using the Thrustmaster 4.

Actually if they listened to a reasonably toned suggestion i think the forums at least would look different.

Yeah, I suppose I've crammed too much inside the OP. But the main point of in is highlighted with the big font.



Just try to give things they did so far one of those, without even considering adding new features. Material traders for example.
Maybe then you will see what I'm trying to say. And it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make them so they simply do not try to take more of your time or limit you at any cost for whatever ungodly reason.

Things on respawn, instant repair and cargo loading are there to make this game playable, althought I am all in for adding some realism for latter two, are here for the same reason as an absence of relativistic time and realistic movement models. That is, to make the game playable. Why this game have only two fire buttons and those rates at material traders then?

Two fire buttons are a deliberate decision to promote controller choice parity.

Not just "Because" which is a poor way of presenting you objection, you want people to explain their objections to your position, would you accept "because" as a valid reason you are considered incorrect?

What are the realistic exchange rates for the material brokers in your opinion, and what do you base them on?

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Two fire buttons are a deliberate decision to promote controller choice parity.

Not just "Because" which is a poor way of presenting you objection, you want people to explain their objections to your position, would you accept "because" as a valid reason you are considered incorrect?

What are the realistic exchange rates for the material brokers in your opinion, and what do you base them on?

Third fire group could easily be allowed with a modifier key. This was voiced by console players as well. Not even taking into account that disparity between VR havs and havnots. I can't even fly FDL without having a headset.

On material system overall. Firstly, why on Earth in space I should scavenge for iron or broken conductors? Those things easily could be made purchasable, narrowing the search to rare ones. Polonium, for example. Procure it yourself or find some black market which would sell some for a price. On traders - ideal is 1-1 for the same rarity, 2^n for downwards or upwards exchange, with some transaction fee. Worse is 2^n from the same rarity, 2^n +1 for upwards. And material types should be just abolished.
Do I want to make things easier? Not necessarily. Balance with material drops can be shifted, more rare types added. But not being able to buy iron makes no sense from Adder stage, let alone having a bil.

I don't even understand why I have to explain why in a game with most detailed space so far and such amazing combat such naive videogamey things should not be present. It's actually the first time I see that people say that things should deliberately make no sense. Does it help gameplay in any way?

 

[Vasious]

Third fire group could easily be allowed with a modifier key. This was voiced by console players as well. Not even taking into account that disparity between VR havs and havnots. I can't even fly FDL without having a headset.

On material system overall. Firstly, why on Earth in space I should scavenge for iron or broken conductors? Those things easily could be made purchasable, narrowing the search to rare ones. Polonium, for example. Procure it yourself or find some black market which would sell some for a price. On traders - ideal is 1-1 for the same rarity, 2^n for downwards or upwards exchange, with some transaction fee. Worse is 2^n from the same rarity, 2^n +1 for upwards. And material types should be just abolished.
Do I want to make things easier? Not necessarily. Balance with material drops can be shifted. But not being able to buy iron makes no sense from Adder stage, let alone having a bil.

I don't even understand why I have to explain why in a game with most detailed space so far and such amazing combat such naive videogamey things should not be present. It's actually the first time I see that people say that things should deliberately make no sense. Does it help gameplay in any way?

Of course you have to explain you position, as you OP is full of claiming "because" is the real genuine reason for things being present.
Do you really believe that or do you just want to belittle the opposing position so you don't need to actually address the real reasons the design decisions were made

Take for example the Combat; it is videogamey with a deliberate restriction of Yaw, to encourage WW1 style of combat, so why is that videogamey something you call amazing, and other videogamey not permitted to you?

Seems more like you are just calling what you don't like "videogamey just because" just to be able to dismiss it due to personal preference and not due to an actual flaw.

"Balance with material drops can be shifted. But not being able to buy iron makes no sense from Adder stage, let alone having a bil." that Sounds like a gameplay balance suggestion not a realism choice doesn't it?
You were against game play over realism so why the balance point of an Adder?
Why is it more realistic to have to find Iron in a Hauler but buy it in an Adder?

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Of course you have to explain you position, as you OP is full of claiming "because" is the real genuine reason for things being present.
Do you really believe that or do you just want to belittle the opposing position so you don't need to actually address the real reasons the design decisions were made

Take for example the Combat; it is videogamey with a deliberate restriction of Yaw, to encourage WW1 style of combat, so why is that videogamey something you call amazing, and other videogamey not permitted to you?

Seems more like you are just calling what you don't like "videogamey just because" just to be able to dismiss it due to personal preference and not due to an actual flaw.

"Balance with material drops can be shifted. But not being able to buy iron makes no sense from Adder stage, let alone having a bil." that Sounds like a gameplay balance suggestion not a realism choice doesn't it?
You were against game play over realism so why the balance point of an Adder?
Why is it more realistic to have to find Iron in a Hauler but buy it in an Adder?

Does it help gameplay in any way?

Along those lines. Combat being videogamey is fine. It's a hard thing to be done good. And realistic combat in space would not be as engaging, if possible at all.
Are said material system follow those lines? There are no iron in the commodities, but copper costs 200. Per tonne. Adder costs 2 million to A rate. Everything makes sense to you? And you tell me that I have to explain anything else? Or maybe this can be done with same... "difficulty", but using better logical base at least?

 

[RagingxPenguin]

Asks for immersion

Requests auto pilot.


I'm done here.

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Two fire buttons are a deliberate decision to promote controller choice parity.

Not just "Because" which is a poor way of presenting you objection, you want people to explain their objections to your position, would you accept "because" as a valid reason you are considered incorrect?

What are the realistic exchange rates for the material brokers in your opinion, and what do you base them on?

Oh, I've just remembered now. Officialy, there are only two fire buttons because of PC players without less than 3 mouse buttons. Of all players. Isn't that spectacular?

And I'm not evem sure which ships were already revealed at the time decision was made. Cobra III?

Asks for immersion

Requests auto pilot.


I'm done here.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/417722-Autopilot-thread

The fact that it's absence was voted on doesn't make this decision good, given final implementation of travel and ways this game went. Not even speaking that this was quite unimmersive from start.

 

[Vingtetun]

The one that really throws me here is the 'Hutton can't survive' bit. Assume that the OP is unaware of the early days of extra solar exploration, discovery of Eden, creation of a station out there and why it continued to thrive (and manufacture its own gin then ultimately the mugs)?

It survives BECAUSE it is so far away.

And on that point I hereby declare your entire original post null and void.

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

The one that really throws me here is the 'Hutton can't survive' bit. Assume that the OP is unaware of the early days of extra solar exploration, discovery of Eden, creation of a station out there and why it continued to thrive (and manufacture its own gin then ultimately the mugs)?

It survives BECAUSE it is so far away.

And on that point I hereby declare your entire original post null and void.

Yep, point taken. You are not the first to point me on this. Reason Hutton crossed my mind when I was producing this wall of text is that there were data missions for 5 mil to it. And I do advocate for star-selective jumps, as there are separate stars with less distance than Hutton. While I understand for some time that this station is a meme, it should be about only of this sort.

 

[Vingtetun]

Yep, point taken. You are not the first to point me on this. Reason Hutton crossed my mind when I was producing this wall of text is that there were data missions for 5 mil to it. And I do advocate for star-selective jumps, as there are separate stars with less distance than Hutton. While I understand for some time that this station is a meme, it should be about only of this sort.

Hutton is awash with cash though. It is the administrative centre of a thriving bubble of 19 systems and a population measuring billions. It is run by a bunch of eccentrics.... those data missions could easily just be written off from profits as a PR exercise ;-)

 

[stooger]

I've lived quite some time and learned some history to know that there are always were some causes for human and society behavior, rules, laws and so on, as well as reasons for which things are way they are. And I might say that unnatural and inefficient things do not survive for long unchanged.

And I see too little of cause and effect thing going in Elite. I mean I understand why all this mess happened, it is because FD tries to build immersive competitive casual hardcore space simulator game for consoles or something like while orienting to 1984 gameplay roots at that. A balance between those things can be achieved, but its a long way from being done. But that understanding doesn't help my immersion in any way whatsoever. Things are just too blatant and obvious.

I do understand that some limitations and simplifications such as the absence of relativistic time model or speed limitations are necessary. But some of the limitations are either placed due to unfinished game play or for the sake of *spirit* I do not really share, and frankly, sometimes are just look so devs are just lazy and/or incompetent and make up excuses.

I have no problem playing X3 immersed. Also, I might add that I was quite okay with no property runs in that game, despite the economy being its main part. Although I understand that even its economy, the core part, quite far from being realistic, it doesn't break immersion as hard as things in Elite do. Because this game doesn't look more realistic than society and economy in this game are.
And I have no way of playing Elite the same way. I was fully immersed for first two weeks or so, then it got shattered as the stupidity of some things became too obvious.

Why only two fire buttons? Because.
Why no autopilot? Because.
Why no selective vector flight assistance? Because
And why all those and other things I can do on my home PC are unavailable in 3300 or whatever? JUST BECAUSE. Do I have to imagine that things are more complicated than I see, even in areas they clearly cannot be such?
Why no business/property opportunities? BECAUSE.
Why an increase in investments does not increase your profit?? BECAUSE.
Why there are so many *Corporations* with no signs of stock markets? Because.
Material traders exchange rates?? Because.
Why have I to scavenge for destroyed ship parts despite having about billion? JUST BECAUSE.

I can go on and on. Its too obvious to me that whoever or whichever caused reasons for limitations like 2 fire triggers would be overthrown instantly IRL. This would work if a player was presented as part of the military, but that's not the case in this game, as military statutes quite often are stupid and go overboard.
And people with alternative rates for materials would INSTANTLY show up. And they would be simply purchasable.

You don't make a Super Mario game with open world and realistic graphics.
Imagine if dudes in FFXV would line up and attack in turns, with the level of graphics in this game. Would this work? No.
Imagine GTA without all those arcades and bowling and stuff. Would it be as good as it is? No. Those things help immersion, even more, they create immersion. Who cares if almost no one uses them more than once. They just have to be there.

I wish FD would give everything they do with the game a reality check FIRST, rather than taking only "difficulty" and "time to achieve" parameters into account. Also, they have to understand that difficulty in a computer game should NOT have man-hours as its main measure.

On material system for example. Firstly, why on Earth in space I should scavenge for iron or broken conductors? Those things easily could be made purchasable, narrowing the search to rare ones. Polonium, for example. Procure it yourself or find some black market which would sell some for a price. On traders - ideal is 1-1 for the same rarity, 2^n for downwards or upwards exchange, with some transaction fee. Worse is 2^n from the same rarity, 2^n +1 for upwards. And material types should be just abolished.
Do I want to make things easier? Not necessarily. Balance with material drops can be shifted, more rare types added. But not being able to buy iron makes no sense from Adder stage, let alone having a bil.

I don't even understand why I have to explain why in a game with most detailed space so far and such amazing combat such naive videogamey things should not be present. It's actually the first time I see that people say that things should deliberately make no sense. Does things making some sence hurt gameplay in any way? Again, I understand than some of those things needed for good gameplay. But some of things could at least be "rephrased" so they make sence, with gameplay being same essentialy.

I've dropped Elite a while ago, but returned as some steps in the right direction are clearly being made. The game started to give hope. But I am far from playing immersed as things are now.

Stop! You violated the law. Since you are speaking with sense you must serve out your sentence and defend stupid ED game mechanics for the next 2 months! Oh... and your common sense is now forfeit.