PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[DaveB]

This thread would have been a much more interesting read without all the Hotel California-ing.

Can we get a sticky or a FAQ entry that just reminds folks that the "modes" really aren't different game modes or difficulty levels? That they are nothing more than matchmaking preferences? No matter the platform, no matter the "mode", we all play the same game in the same instanced galaxy. The platform we play on, the options we set for the matchmaking server - including the contents of our block lists, the individual quirks of each of our internet connections, whether we have wingmates or player crewmembers, these ALL dictate who we might be instanced with at any given time and the other factors are quite sufficient to preclude any given pair of players being instanced together even if neither of them had any kind of matchmaking preference set. (ie, both in "open" and with empty block lists)

The inevitable counter-argument that "players present a higher challenge than NPCs" may be true, but it isn't relevant. So what? If I'm in an instance with another ship and outclassed in a fight I'll high-wake out of there. Even NPCs are smart enough to do that. (although it's amusing that in recent weeks I've seen quite a few folks griping on here about their ability to be that sensible. You want more player-like NPC behavior? You got it! At least they don't CLog like some players I've met.)

 

[Robert Maynard]

Just a quick question Robert, do you have any idea the percentage of current players who don't own Horizons? Since Horizons was released in Dec 2015 I would find it difficult to understand why someone who still plays ED hasn't purchased Horizons given the additional content contained in it.

We don't know - Frontier only report franchise units sold.

As to reasons why someone hasn't upgraded - who knows, for those who can - but Mac players can't as Horizons has not been released on that platform.

 

[Dural]

Operating outside of the mechanics or activity streams? Please explain..

As most of you guys usually enjoy raking up ancient FDev blurb to support your arguments - here you go:

http://www.gdurl.com/xE5s

Bounty hunting and piracy fits that snip nicely.

 

[M00ka]

We don't know - Frontier only report franchise units sold.

As to reasons why someone hasn't upgraded - who knows, for those who can - but Mac players can't as Horizons has not been released on that platform.

Thanks, I wasn't sure if it was common(ish) knowledge or not. And I admit I didn't even consider the Mac users, being a member of the PC Master Race (ducking now lol), I tend not to think to much about the plebs ... hehehe

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sorry, which forums are we on again?

Frontier's - where, when the Devs seek feedback on a topic, they ask for it in the Focused Feedback Forums - and where those threads are not to be used by others to discuss individual's feedback (The Golden Rule).

As Stealthie said, you need to buy the thing, to have the thing. No-one with 2.x should have been able to see 1.x, or vice versa. Would that split the community? Irrelevant question. 3 major platforms. PC, Live, PSN. It's already fractured. Frontier's entire player base is fractured further, over solo, private and open. You're arguing a perspective that's literally redundant already.

Frontier have been rather clear in their desire for more players to play in Open - so I doubt that they'd choose to effectively split each platform's Open into two just because of Engineering.

 

[Vorxian]

NPC's don't tend to throw dumb missiles through the letterbox of stations to gank someone in an undefendable position......

Come to think of it, I have never experienced an NPC flying at me in a sidewinder on 10% health in a bid to get the station guns turned on me...

PvP is more than just weapons and weapon upgrades.. PvP is all about the interaction and swapping of emotions. NPCs do not trigger the two-way emotion that is necessary for some players enjoyment.

 

[Muetdhiver]

None of any of that makes sense.

1. Engineered ships are already in the HazRez sites. Lo-Res. High-Res are not important, the federales are there to help.
2. It obvious to any dummy that an engineered player ship is going to have a massive advantage over a non engineered ship. I'm not sure what your point is here.
3. What exactly is non consensual PvE ??
4. You're forgetting that non-Horizon players need 'elite' ranked NPCs to get to Elite Combat Rank.
5. I agree, the new uber NPCs you're looking for should be hidden in U.S.S.s where we can decide to ignore them if we want.

1. I know. However, they are either not well engineered or use the wrong mods, because they are still 100% pushovers. I mean player styled G3 to G5 modding. Just keep NPC's hand off setups with 4 moded shield boosters, otherwise people will ask to nerf shield the day after I have yet to see a NPC with G5 armored PP & two MRP's... or an iCourrier moving at 800 speed...

2. My point is that engineering has made 90% of the PvE combats about easier than space invaders...

3. The non-sense ganking NPC "pirates". Having those NPC's with G5 mods would be damn agravating.

4. This is why I argue that we should have bolt-elite NPC's and elite NPC's, marking the fact that one is fully G5 engineered, and the other is not.

5. Indeed, competitive NPC's should be present in places that one can ignore, like SS, missions and hazardous RES.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...I seriously believe there is a lot of meat measuring in this thread.

Nicely put.

 

[Lateralus]

Bounty hunting and piracy fits that snip nicely.

It does not specify.. killing other players for no reason is perfectly legit gameplay. Saying it is not is applying your own moral ruleset to the practice and claiming that is the official position of Frontier, which it is not.

Now if you want to talk about whether it is a cool thing to be doing, that's another discussion.

 

[Jockey79]

They can, but they generally fall into certain niches - remember Quake?

Unreal was a good single-player game that also had some pretty solid multi-player.

For more modern games, Watchdogs 2 has both.

It can be done without one element or the other suffering tremendously, but it requires very specific design intentions.

Arena games is about the only time PvE / PvP mixes well.
I'd actually forgotten about those games TBH, and loved UT.
Used to set one of the AI at max everything, an ungodly demon to face, made the game way more interesting in a free for all.

We don't know - Frontier only report franchise units sold.

As to reasons why someone hasn't upgraded - who knows, for those who can - but Mac players can't as Horizons has not been released on that platform.

I have Horizons, but neither of my daughters have it. They just have the base game.

Until they focus a bit more and are not jumping from game to game every 10 minutes, I don't see the point spending the extra money.
I also won't let them join open, it's my PG or not play at all.

Not letting my children any where near some of the weirdos around here

 

[Kayweg]

Just a quick question Robert, do you have any idea the percentage of current players who don't own Horizons? Since Horizons was released in Dec 2015 I would find it difficult to understand why someone who still plays ED hasn't purchased Horizons given the additional content contained in it.

I think it's quite common for people, who have purchased a game that hasn't really convinced them, to then not go and spend any further money on expansions for said game.
Yet they may still play occasionally to see if it's improving or simply just to tickle that spaceship flying nerve once in a while. And they don't need Horizons for that.
By december 2015 the first year after release had passed, adding things like PP and CQC in the process.
So by that time my wallet had already closed shut, as i had concluded for myself ED was going nowhere.
Anecdotal, yes, but just to give one example why someone may not have bought Horizons.

 

[Jockey79]

It does not specify.. killing other players for no reason is perfectly legit gameplay. Saying it is not is applying your own moral ruleset to the practice and claiming that is the official position of Frontier, which it is not.

Now if you want to talk about whether it is a cool thing to be doing, that's another discussion.

Very true.

There is a video clip somewhere of DBOBE talking about this and saying the same thing.
However one thing Frontier messed up, they expected players to "police" players.
But didn't really add the tools for player bounty hunters and it's taken 3 years for a C&P system to be added.

So while the role of "murder hobo" is a legit one, Frontier didn't add the surrounding mechanics to make it decent game play or controlled game play.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Not letting my children any where near some of the weirdos around here

At first i thought you were protecting them from PvP. Then understood its more likely you don't want them to hear what someone did to their mother last night.

 

[Stigbob]

Very true.

There is a video clip somewhere of DBOBE talking about this and saying the same thing.
However one thing Frontier messed up, they expected players to "police" players.
But didn't really add the tools for player bounty hunters and it's taken 3 years for a C&P system to be added.

So while the role of "murder hobo" is a legit one, Frontier didn't add the surrounding mechanics to make it decent game play or controlled game play.

I don't think they anticipated bounty cheats, and the wanted playing in solo whenever they were not actively ganking.

 

[Surprised Brony]

At first i thought you were protecting them from PvP. Then understood its more likely you don't want them to hear what someone did to their mother last night.

Damn.

On topic, it's going to be less logical and calm without Frenotx here. I've always wanted games to carefully shape combat and NPCs such that PvE and PvP use the same gear for top tier interaction. Well, that doesn't happen often. If NPCs were governed by all of the restrictions players deal with(they get to bypass a couple), it'd be one step closer to that goal. If top tier human NPC enemies were as skilled as some players and had the same tendencies and adaptability, it'd be done. Top tier PvE and PvP loadouts would converge.

Mind you, farming Res sites and CZs wouldn't be any different, but top tier PvE content would require you to be ready for the worst. Much like PvP.

Oh, and I don't do PvP on this game. Oh, that means I'm supposed to hate it and vilify it doesn't it? Too bad.

 

[Dural]

It does not specify.. killing other players for no reason is perfectly legit gameplay. Saying it is not is applying your own moral ruleset to the practice and claiming that is the official position of Frontier, which it is not.

Now if you want to talk about whether it is a cool thing to be doing, that's another discussion.

No but bounty hunting and piracy are specifically listed as activities in the Frontier blurb. I'm not trying to apply any kind of moral ruleset per se, I do have an issue with a small number of players negatively affecting the experience of others though. Attacking players who so not stand any chance of fighting back, especially early in their careers is basically just bullying.

 

[Vorxian]

At first i thought you were protecting them from PvP. Then understood its more likely you don't want them to hear what someone did to their mother last night.

It's usually what conversations boil down on here !

 

[Muetdhiver]

I don't think they anticipated bounty cheats, and the wanted playing in solo whenever they were not actively ganking.

To be fair, I don't think FD anticipated much of the issues tied to making an MMO.

Gankers in their fortess of solidude ROFL

 

[John Xenir]

The only reason I can think of to explain this PvP vs PvE dichotomy, is game's lack of decision on what it wants to be.
And I don't want to favor one over the other, as I'll be biased by my own preference.

All I can say is: Frontier, suck it up, make your own mind about the game and go through with it. If you've made mistakes along the way - admit it, learn from it and carry on. Honesty has worked wonders for other development studios recognizing their mistakes.
It's either PvP - in which case it should have one mode, OPEN; or it's PvE, in which case PvP should be illegal and consequences for it swift and certain.

You can't cater to absolutely everyone, which current schizophrenia of OPEN/SOLO/PG is direct result of, with common features like RNG/BGS further adding to unnecessary complication of development process. Oh, did I mention balance issues?

 

[Jockey79]

It's usually what conversations boil down on here !

I don't let my daughters on here either, lol.