FDL, needing a little advice from seasoned Cmdr's

The point was that those that engage in more long range combat will naturally fire their weapons for longer.

Where the FDL is concerned, that can be more problematic than with some craft and less problematic than some others. The FDL has always had a heat problem, the issue now is not as bad as it used to be but it is still a concern regardless of how people try to paint it as not being an issue. I am not the only one that has noted this.

Sure if you only fire your high heat weapons with efficient mods at close range then there is not an issue, by comparison though - with most other ships such considerations are far less of an issue.



The bold is contradictory, it asserts the FdL is unremarkable in that regard.

What does range have to do with anything?
Seems like you're just making stuff up.

Do you have any objective data to support your claim?
I don't care about opinions.
 
But the range isn't why you're generating more heat. Do you know why you have to fire your lasers longer when a target is farther away from you?
I think you are making wrong assumptions - I typically run with LR and Focused mods and they mitigates the damage fall-off either completely (LR) or partially (Focused).

The point is that if you only engage at effectively point blank range then you will typically (a) take more damage to shields from the opponents and (b) typically have far less time on target (hence shorter firing bursts in general - depending on the precise circumstances of course). With LR upgrades, you can in some cases destroy the target before they get close enough to do any damage to you or at least be in a better defensive position than them when you are in effective range of each other. Assuming they do not have LR mods of course, G5 LR doubles the maximum range and ensures damage dealt is consistent. At closer ranges with the LR mod accuracy can be improved significantly with non-beam weapons since bullet speed is also increased - more of a factor where PA/Cannon are concerned than with the MC

Overall, my point still stands - depending on your precise tactics with the FDL you may find perceptions about heat build up and dissipation of it different.
 
I don't care about opinions.
If you do not care about opinions then discussion is worthless as that is all there is where builds are concerned. :rolleyes:

The FDL is not as bad as the Imperial Courier for heat build up for example, but is worse than most other craft. The fact that most are talking about using efficient mods speaks volumes about how there still is a heat concern with it.
 
If you do not care about opinions then discussion is worthless as that is all there is where builds are concerned. :rolleyes:

Wrong, objective data is much more valuable.
Please read the link above.
You could not be more wrong.
That's what all of the scientific discipines are based on, objective observations.



The FDL is not as bad as the Imperial Courier for heat build up for example, but is worse than most other craft. The fact that most are talking about using efficient mods speaks volumes about how there still is a heat concern with it.

That is called a non-sequitur fallacy, ie "it doesn't logically follow".
Using efficient mods doesn't mean the ship they are on has a heat problem.
Most?
Where is your data?

I suggest you delve into the differences between the subjective and objective, eg the link I provided above.
 
I go for all PA/rail plasma slug then it's fast, so that's when you need tanks and a scoop. But with just a pair of PA's or rails you don't need it as kinetic ammo runs out faster, one huge would probably be the same (ish).

With fuel scoop/extra tank all plasma slug loadouts you only return to stations to cash in, or when damaged.

Thanks for the info - may look at LR Plasma Slug PAs for the Huge HP's on my Corvette at some point. For my FDL, I think I will stick with my original plan for now - LR Phased Sequencing PA. May trial the Plasma Slug option on the FDL when I look at it for the Corvette.

Yea? I tried plasma slug imperial hammers for a while. Just like my Courier, the FDL didn't like them at all, it drained the fuel tanks like crazy.

Concerning plasma slug:

This is my 'go to' for PvE in RES or CZ but I think more would prefer it on Corvette than FdL.

Although I see that you keep your FdL internals pretty free, hence could fit a good scoop and further additional fuel tanks, plasma slug has to be used as main armament to make sense and this makes it thirsty. Ultimately, if you have to leave the instance to scoop regularly you're almost at the point of achieving little over having to go back to a station to rearm conventional weapons. Because plasma slug denies you access to a number of beneficial specials (most obviously, super penetrator and feedback cascade on rails, but also dispersal on PA would be useful against NPC's, and TLB should stop them spamming missiles) it's difficult to justify the benefits you're giving up unless you can really stay in the combat for a long time.

When I use plasma slug I am very aggressive with almost continual fire (kind of the point of the thing) and very, very, roughly use about 1 ton of fuel per minute, hence why for me it's more a Big Ship than FdL thing.

The FDL has always had a heat problem, the issue now is not as bad as it used to be but it is still a concern regardless of how people try to paint it as not being an issue. I am not the only one that has noted this.

The FdL was basically a bonfire when first introduced. It then received a massive heat management buff (along with its pitch and powerplant buffs) in 1.5. But Frontier then later dialled the heat management back again, putting it somewhere between those two extremes.

This, actually, could be another reason to be wary of plasma slug on FdL. If most of the loadout is plasma slug (which as noted earlier is pretty much essential to plasma slug builds), the benefits may be difficult to realise given thermal load.

Anyway, either way, concerning phasing sequence on PA:

I would query the benefit of this in PvE. Phasing removes 10% of weapon damage, then divides the remaining 90% as to approximately 78% to shield and 12% phasing through to hull. The phasing component ignores fall-off for range, ignores resistances (on shield and hull) and ignores pips to Sys. However, against vanilla PvE targets (basically anything except Wing Terrorist Mission Principal, notwithstanding a smattering of random mods here and there) only the latter point (ignoring Sys pips) is relevant to a PA.

Basically, unlike with phasing on a long-range laser fired at a PvP build with high resists, phasing on a PA fired at an NPC will almost always result in a slower overall TTK. The reason being that it will usually only be faster if the NPC dies with shield still up, which is achievable but unusual.

Hence there is a credible argument that, in PvE, phasing on a PA is actually worse than no experimental at all, and given the obvious benefits of Dispersal or TLB (which have no downside) they may be worth considering as alternatives.

(Albeit of course, now that courtesy of 3.0 QoL we can swap experimental at will subject to using a few cheap mats, you'll lose little by trying them all and seeing what you prefer.)

Any corrosive weapon gives you a 25% damage bonus whilst active (you see the little icon on the target display) and that's it. Only need the one, weapon size isn't a factor for it either.

Yes, and note that when a hull is affected by corrosive it not only takes 25% extra damage from all sources, every weapon fired at it also counts as having +20 APV (which is not the same as the hull counting as having -20 HH). It's the combination of these two effects that makes some builds with corrosive so effective: most obviously low APV builds such as full multis.

The reason that corrosive cannot stack is because it falls into the same binary category as emissive or dispersal: it's not a weapon check, it's a target check. The target is either affected by corrosive at any given time, or not. If it is affected, the full consequences apply. Or none.
 
Concerning plasma slug:

This is my 'go to' for PvE in RES or CZ but I think more would prefer it on Corvette than FdL.

Although I see that you keep your FdL internals pretty free, hence could fit a good scoop and further additional fuel tanks, plasma slug has to be used as main armament to make sense and this makes it thirsty. Ultimately, if you have to leave the instance to scoop regularly you're almost at the point of achieving little over having to go back to a station to rearm conventional weapons. Because plasma slug denies you access to a number of beneficial specials (most obviously, super penetrator and feedback cascade on rails, but also dispersal on PA would be useful against NPC's, and TLB should stop them spamming missiles) it's difficult to justify the benefits you're giving up unless you can really stay in the combat for a long time.

When I use plasma slug I am very aggressive with almost continual fire (kind of the point of the thing) and very, very, roughly use about 1 ton of fuel per minute, hence why for me it's more a Big Ship than FdL thing.
1 T/Minute with a full loadout of PA - so less probably much than that with the loadout I have been considering. 1 T every 5 minutes based on the information from the Wiki (0.11 T/5 shot reload regardless of gun size) and using your firing rate as a benchmark (probably a lower fuel consumption than that for me).

The FdL was basically a bonfire when first introduced. It then received a massive heat management buff (along with its pitch and powerplant buffs) in 1.5. But Frontier then later dialled the heat management back again, putting it somewhere between those two extremes.

This, actually, could be another reason to be wary of plasma slug on FdL. If most of the loadout is plasma slug (which as noted earlier is pretty much essential to plasma slug builds), the benefits may be difficult to realise given thermal load.
I do not go with the min-max/meta build ideology, but I do see where you are coming from. I have trialled a large efficient PA as a secondary/alpha damage weapon on my DBX and was not overly impressed with it on balance - the efficient mod made it usable on the DBX but the accuracy/usability was pretty poor IMO.

Where TTK is concerned, I am less fussed about that than I am other things. Providing the TTK is good enough from my perspective then everything else is negotiable. If TTK was my prime consideration I would probably run pure multi-cannons on all my ships BUT I hate being overly dependent on ammo or synthesis - Hence, my interest in Plasma Slug for the PA.
 
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For the FDL, high resistances and shield strengths should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.

Oh, right: We're only leveraging the strength of the ship because we suck and you are a better pilot.

aaaallllly? You moan about hostility, and then imply that anyone wanting big shields needs to git gud...?
 
For the FDL, high resistances and shield strengths should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.

For the Corvette, twin C4 weapons should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.
For the Imperial Eagle, enhanced drives should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.
For the Gunship, hull tanking should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.

makes sense.
 
For PVE I use overcharged MC with autoloader in the huge, 2xovercharged MC with autoloaders in medium. 2xefficient beams with vent. full resist boosters and thermal-resist bi-weave.

It would be very suboptimal for PvP. Due to the small shield strength you'd be very weak to weapons that ignore resists and you'd struggle to dent shields on anyone with serious shield tank, but for PvE you get staying power, no cooldown between fights, ease of targeting, simple pip management and no heat issues at all.

For PvP you generally want active shield tanking (big shields, cell banks, prismatics), not passive shield tanking. Sorry for the Eve terminology, but it fits. For PvE those builds will either give a lot of downtime or ammo-issues.
 
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For PVE I use overcharged MC with autoloader in the huge, 2xovercharged MC with autoloaders in medium. 2xefficient beams with vent. full resist boosters and thermal-resist bi-weave.

It would be very suboptimal for PvP. Due to the small shield strength you'd be very weak to weapons that ignore resists and you'd struggle to dent shields on anyone with serious shield tank, but for PvE you get staying power, no cooldown between fights, ease of targeting, simple pip management and no heat issues at all.

For PvP you generally want active shield tanking (big shields, cell banks, prismatics), not passive shield tanking.

I know that some might think I've been kidnapped and somebody else is typing this but ...

... if your three 'PvE' overcharged autoloader multis are gimballed, then combined with your high resist bi-weave you actually have one of the strongest possible combos for a PvP 1v1. You see, if you're good at evasive flight, the gimbals remove the need to aim, meaning that you'll be able to keep relatively close to an opponent and evade most fixed weapons fire by perma-boosting towards the edges of the fire arc, whilst benefiting from your high active shield regen, and whilst doing massive damage with your gimballed multis (and due to rampant hit point inflation you'll outlast and exhaust almost any amount of enemy chaff).

It's for the above reasons that evasive flight + overcharged gimballed multis is if anything a frowned-upon combo in the PvP community (although I must emphasise that I don't mean that you or anyone should necessarily care about that) as being considered somewhat OP.

Of some relevance for anyone interested (different loadout but same principle) is a guide to gimballed duelling I wrote last year:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/341107-Truesilver-s-Top-Tips-No-3-Gimballed-Duelling
 
I know that some might think I've been kidnapped and somebody else is typing this but ...

... if your three 'PvE' overcharged autoloader multis are gimballed, then combined with your high resist bi-weave you actually have one of the strongest possible combos for a PvP 1v1. You see, if you're good at evasive flight, the gimbals remove the need to aim, meaning that you'll be able to keep relatively close to an opponent and evade most fixed weapons fire by perma-boosting towards the edges of the fire arc, whilst benefiting from your high active shield regen, and whilst doing massive damage with your gimballed multis (and due to rampant hit point inflation you'll outlast and exhaust almost any amount of enemy chaff).

It's for the above reasons that evasive flight + overcharged gimballed multis is if anything a frowned-upon combo in the PvP community (although I must emphasise that I don't mean that you or anyone should necessarily care about that) as being considered somewhat OP.

Of some relevance for anyone interested (different loadout but same principle) is a guide to gimballed duelling I wrote last year:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/341107-Truesilver-s-Top-Tips-No-3-Gimballed-Duelling

Mr. Truesilver, I'm still waiting on the recipe of the secret sauce you were using against that wing assassination mission a few weeks ago. You did promise to tell me:)
 
I know that some might think I've been kidnapped and somebody else is typing this but ...

... if your three 'PvE' overcharged autoloader multis are gimballed, then combined with your high resist bi-weave you actually have one of the strongest possible combos for a PvP 1v1. You see, if you're good at evasive flight, the gimbals remove the need to aim, meaning that you'll be able to keep relatively close to an opponent and evade most fixed weapons fire by perma-boosting towards the edges of the fire arc, whilst benefiting from your high active shield regen, and whilst doing massive damage with your gimballed multis (and due to rampant hit point inflation you'll outlast and exhaust almost any amount of enemy chaff).

It's for the above reasons that evasive flight + overcharged gimballed multis is if anything a frowned-upon combo in the PvP community (although I must emphasise that I don't mean that you or anyone should necessarily care about that) as being considered somewhat OP.

Of some relevance for anyone interested (different loadout but same principle) is a guide to gimballed duelling I wrote last year:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/341107-Truesilver-s-Top-Tips-No-3-Gimballed-Duelling

Ah thanks, that is good to know. I haven't used this shield setup in PvP, I thought it was just too weak to plasma and that a mix of heavy duty and resist boosters + reinforced primastic was better. Then again, I don't PvP much.

And yes, they are gimballed. I think the bonuses to fixed damage are just too low to make it worth it, esp with the spinup. Gimbal+autoloaders is very convenient... perhaps not the best damage on paper, but in practice the ability to just land shots whenever is very handy.
 
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Ah thanks, that is good to know. I haven't used this shield setup in PvP, I thought it was just too weak to plasma and that a mix of heavy duty and resist boosters + reinforced primastic was better. Then again, I don't PvP much.

I firmly believe that prismatics are only of value for PVE hit-and-run attacks. Once they've dropped to two rings they offer zero advantage but you are carrying around double the mass, they use more than double the power, and there's no regen worth talking about.

The mass issue overflows into the powerplant as well, since an FdL engineered for agility can comfortably run a 5A power plant to save another 10T if you're not running a prismatic. So that's double the mass for the shield AND double the mass for the power plant. It's a tangible benefit to agility which should not be overlooked in a ship that is so good at combat because of​ its agility - since the extra 30T in a ship that only weighs 400T reduces your pitch rate by 3-4% and has similar implications for top speed, drift correction and acceleration/deceleration.
 
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Ah thanks, that is good to know. I haven't used this shield setup in PvP, I thought it was just too weak to plasma

Bi-weave + resist boosts is not really 'weak' against plasma, though. It's not like PAs will cruise through: It's still a bi-weave with Nx20% extra MJ, even without the additional resists. That's still on-par or better than standard shields *without* boosters and in an ongoing engagement typical of drawn-out PVP, the bi-weave is likely to be just as effective - if not moreso - than prismatics, due to regen rate.
 
Oh, right: We're only leveraging the strength of the ship because we suck and you are a better pilot.

aaaallllly? You moan about hostility, and then imply that anyone wanting big shields needs to git gud...?
For the Corvette, twin C4 weapons should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.
For the Imperial Eagle, enhanced drives should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.
For the Gunship, hull tanking should not be needed if you are really any good at flying it.

makes sense.
I think you BOTH missed my point, beyond a certain point stacking of shield boosters becomes pointless to the extent of being OP with at least some ships.

Stacking boosters just because you can is not leveraging a strength, there is more that can be done with UT hardpoints than shield boosters. :rolleyes:
 
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rlsg, why don’t you post what you think is an optimal combat build for the FDL?
Because I do not think it matters... build choices are a personal thing and while the "spreadsheet games" can indicate one build is better than another on paper there are always other factors to consider.

What is optimal for one person's intended activities is not necessarily optimal for another person. Besides which I have had enough of certain trolls in these forums (not targeted at you).
 
Because I do not think it matters... build choices are a personal thing and while the "spreadsheet games" can indicate one build is better than another on paper there are always other factors to consider.

What is optimal for one person's intended activities is not necessarily optimal for another person. Besides which I have had enough of certain trolls in these forums (not targeted at you).

Well said, and you’re right.
 
Well said, and you’re right.

She's correct in the very personal sense, of course, as well as in the sense that you can put almost any module in any ship and make it work against the current crop of NPC's. That "being correct" will run into a brick wall if you encounter another player who's hell bent on sending you to the rebuy screen, and would be incorrect if Fdev ever decided to give the NPC's some teeth.
 
She's correct in the very personal sense, of course, as well as in the sense that you can put almost any module in any ship and make it work against the current crop of NPC's. That "being correct" will run into a brick wall if you encounter another player who's hell bent on sending you to the rebuy screen, and would be incorrect if Fdev ever decided to give the NPC's some teeth.

Right on.

While I don't value rlsg's opinion on FDL outfitting I'm not trying to troll here. Fact of the matter is the FDL is meant for combat, so, let's see some builds related to combat. I'll post a few myself and I'd love some opinions (especially if something is terrible).
 
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