PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[Agony_Aunt]

The 'problem' is a phantom dreamt up by those who wish to fundamentally alter the game, the game is equitable because all modes and all players of all ability levels can affect the BgS.

You don't get to stop anyone taking part.

Which then often brings us to the cries of "But i can't stop them if i can't PvP against them!" and with zero hint of understanding that to counter PvE you can also PvE right back.

As the old saying goes, when all you have is a hammer....

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The biggest issue with your point of view is that it overlooks the fact that all actions done in PG/Solo are balanced out by other players in PG/Solo.

Lets take player faction A (lets say they have 50 players and they are a PG group) Faction B (50 players in open only) Now if only those two factions played the BGS the and both sides were activly engaged in moving merits the disadvantage is minimal (since neither side sees any opposition except NPCs); however its not just those two factions working the BGS you have all the other players (either in solo/pg or open) Since PG/Solo is supposedly the bigger group of players the opposition to each side would be from people in alternate modes, so again pretty much balanced out.

Now whichever faction has the largest number of players and allies is most likely to win any BGS war. Of course if one group chooses not to fill the merit buckets they are at a huge disadvantage. That is a playstyle disadvantage not a mode disadvantage.

The idea of adding more weight to open still would have little effect since the larger number of players are in PG/Solo and really not needed since the discrepancy is in playstyle not mode (imo)

So a better solution would be to add some kind of PvP mechanic that had some effect (not sure what it would be but..) so the different playstyle actually had the ability to affect the BGS (since the majority of players opposing you will be either in a different mode or instance or platform, or region or time zone etc)

The idea of giving open a bonus will not see the majority of players changing their playstyle. So not a good way to effect a net change.

Exactly.

Some people think if Open gets a bonus PvEers will come over to Open.... which is unliekly, or they will, but use tricks to avoid the PvP.

If the PvEers stay where they are, then the PvPers will have to PvE for the bonus to be utilized to any effect. They won't be defending their systems with PvP then, they will be PvEing.

 

[Marra Morgan]

So a better solution would be to add some kind of PvP mechanic that had some effect (not sure what it would be but..) so the different playstyle actually had the ability to affect the BGS (since the majority of players opposing you will be either in a different mode or instance or platform, or region or time zone etc)

Yep I think this is the right approach; giving some sort of credit for participation in PvP, rather than participation in a particular mode, which tbh is very exploitable.

 

[Riverside]

Yep I think this is the right approach; giving some sort of credit for participation in PvP, rather than participation in a particular mode, which tbh is very exploitable.

Meaningful PvP Proposal

 

[Renraiku]

The biggest issue with your point of view is that it overlooks the fact that all actions done in PG/Solo are balanced out by other players in PG/Solo.

Lets take player faction A (lets say they have 50 players and they are a PG group) Faction B (50 players in open only) Now if only those two factions played the BGS the and both sides were activly engaged in moving merits the disadvantage is minimal (since neither side sees any opposition except NPCs); however its not just those two factions working the BGS you have all the other players (either in solo/pg or open) Since PG/Solo is supposedly the bigger group of players the opposition to each side would be from people in alternate modes, so again pretty much balanced out.

Now whichever faction has the largest number of players and allies is most likely to win any BGS war. Of course if one group chooses not to fill the merit buckets they are at a huge disadvantage. That is a playstyle disadvantage not a mode disadvantage.

The idea of adding more weight to open still would have little effect since the larger number of players are in PG/Solo and really not needed since the discrepancy is in playstyle not mode (imo)

So a better solution would be to add some kind of PvP mechanic that had some effect (not sure what it would be but..) so the different playstyle actually had the ability to affect the BGS (since the majority of players opposing you will be either in a different mode or instance or platform, or region or time zone etc)

The idea of giving open a bonus will not see the majority of players changing their playstyle. So not a good way to effect a net change.

I agree there is a better way out there.

Yep I think this is the right approach; giving some sort of credit for participation in PvP, rather than participation in a particular mode, which tbh is very exploitable.

Oh i like that. Something to think about.

There are definite flaws in my suggestion. I am glad people are thinking about a solution.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Meaningful PvP Proposal

That's interesting. It has echoes of EVE's Factional Warfare system, which I used to enjoy.

I've reservations over some elements, but certainly some ideas of merit there

 

[Riverside]

That's interesting. It has echoes of EVE's Factional Warfare system, which I used to enjoy.

I've reservations over some elements, but certainly some ideas of merit there

Please add your thoughts good & bad. In particular what the PvPers could fight over (ie what could the points count for). It needs some sort of min-BGS type thing.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Exactly.

Some people think if Open gets a bonus PvEers will come over to Open.... which is unliekly, or they will, but use tricks to avoid the PvP.

If the PvEers stay where they are, then the PvPers will have to PvE for the bonus to be utilized to any effect. They won't be defending their systems with PvP then, they will be PvEing.

The point here is not to attract PVE players to OPEN. The point in adding an extra reward to a more challenging game mode is to discourage PF and PP groups to run to SOLO in order to avoid direct opposition.

Again, to repeat, if you have a conflict with another PF or PP player group you should be facing them DIRECTLY.

If you are a simple PVE player that just plays for own progression the private modes are not an issue and this whole debate doesnt have anything to do with you.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The point here is not to attract PVE players to OPEN. The point in adding an extra reward to a more challenging game mode is to discourage PF and PP groups to run to SOLO in order to avoid direct opposition.

Again, to repeat, if you have a conflict with another PF or PP player group you should be facing them DIRECTLY.

If you are a simple PVE player that just plays for own progression the private modes are not an issue and this whole debate doesnt have anything to do with you.

Totally used a T9 with no shields In Solo and Private for our CG.

Never had to worry about any opposition from anyone.

This CG was just against the game. Filling a Bar. There was no competition really. Its not like we were flipping a system. Or Getting involved with powerplay.

Man, 942 tons or something like that with no shields. Stock t9 with Engineered FSD.

You get to skip 99% of the game. You can buy a second account. Unlock Farseer. Hit a gold mine somewhere. Skip Engineering. And get right into BGS stuff. No gear needed.

Seems pretty dumb. And you cant stop any of those people from effecting you on top of that?

This is crazy.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

You need PvE activities to have any effect on PF/PP/BSG, so you would still need the PvE activites, the PVP activites currently have no direct effect. All PvE activites affect All PvE activities so they are completely balanced. You want to unbalance them. Unless of course you are only interested in shooting the PvErs and not other PvPers then using a carrot to entice more PvErs in to open is what you are trying to do.

What you should be trying to do (if you really care about PvP) is trying to add a mechanic that directly ties the PvP to the BGS etc.

Heres some mechanics,

Interdiction > Hatch Breakers to open your cargo > DPS until shields are down > Target Power Plant > Grom Missile because 10 seconds FSD is up> Kill powerplant.

You lose mission reward depending on the mission. Time spent stacking. Rebuy. Influence with your faction on top of the missions you were stacking.

PVP activities INDEED do have direct effect. Its to slow down your enemy from turning in missions and effecting %gains vs each other at the end of the day.

Edit: Oh and Player bounty if they are wanted for killing clean ships to lower influence. Nope cant get those either.

Sorry forgot about that one.

You were saying?.....

 

[Mohrgan]

Totally used a T9 with no shields In Solo and Private for our CG.

Never had to worry about any opposition from anyone.

This CG was just against the game. Filling a Bar. There was no competition really. Its not like we were flipping a system. Or Getting involved with powerplay.

Man, 942 tons or something like that with no shields. Stock t9 with Engineered FSD.

You get to skip 99% of the game. You can buy a second account. Unlock Farseer. Hit a gold mine somewhere. Skip Engineering. And get right into BGS stuff. No gear needed.

Seems pretty dumb. And you cant stop any of those people from effecting you on top of that?

This is crazy.

The above are all judgement calls, and the inserting of your own personal gamer ethics into someone else's gaming. PvP is not the most important thing in E|D, so what? No one ever promised that PvP would be the linchpin to game play in E|D. On the contrary, a number of the Dev's have said, and the actual design of the game shows, that PvP is possible, but not imperative to success.

What do you say to a Player Group that isn't interested in PvP? "Sorry, you're people so you must fight?". This Player Group's associated faction, via the BGS, with no control by them, expands into a system that also includes another Player Group Associated Faction, what now? "By the declaration of the Player Group Grand Poohbah, you must log in open, and fight us. Or else.". Get real.

You have already cracked the case. All of the modes and all of the game's content is at your finger tips. Just a simple mouse click, and you can decide the fate of the Milly Way galaxy. Make use of that ultimate power, and conquer your foes.

And, leave the rest of us to do the same.

 

[Riverside]

If you are a simple PVE player that just plays for own progression the private modes are not an issue and this whole debate doesnt have anything to do with you.

A discussion about the PvE - PvP rift very much does have a lot to do with PvE. I think maybe you have forgotten what thread you are in
We are discussing ways in which there is friction between the communities, and potential solutions to bring them closer together.

I proposed a new layer of manipulation that is only influenced by PvP, nothing else. This addresses your desire without impacting on the existing playerbase (who see no need to change to accommodate you).

You can contribute by giving some idea of the number of players this new feature would be used by, and by giving some idea s for what would be worth fighting over.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The above are all judgement calls, and the inserting of your own personal gamer ethics into someone else's gaming. PvP is not the most important thing in E|D, so what? No one ever promised that PvP would be the linchpin to game play in E|D. On the contrary, a number of the Dev's have said, and the actual design of the game shows, that PvP is possible, but not imperative to success.

What do you say to a Player Group that isn't interested in PvP? "Sorry, you're people so you must fight?". This Player Group's associated faction, via the BGS, with no control by them, expands into a system that also includes another Player Group Associated Faction, what now? "By the declaration of the Player Group Grand Poohbah, you must log in open, and fight us. Or else.". Get real.

You have already cracked the case. All of the modes and all of the game's content is at your finger tips. Just a simple mouse click, and you can decide the fate of the Milly Way galaxy. Make use of that ultimate power, and conquer your foes.

And, leave the rest of us to do the same.

Never said it has to be. There is plenty more to do within the game. However if you are attacking a player faction. Then yes I do believe all of it should be involved and not just some of it.

Open is at a disadvantage here. All modes are equal right? Well how come I can get more out of Private and Solo for those rewards at a CG with the relaxed build? More missions/ more credits, more BGS %'s. TIME, Time efficiency is the most important thing here.

If I took that build into a populated place in open. Would that build work? No. Is the Risk and Reward the same? No.

Are the MODES EQUAL? NO.

Far From it.

Edit: You're right though, Ill use whats most effective to win against someone else. And if they dont they are only hurting themselves.

I am asking them to NERF ME. I am too Overpowered.

 

[Mohrgan]

Never said it has to be. There is plenty more to do within the game. However if you are attacking a player faction. Then yes I do believe all of it should be involved and not just some of it.

Open is at a disadvantage here. All modes are equal right? Well how come I can get more out of Private and Solo for those rewards at a CG with the relaxed build? More missions/ more credits, more BGS %'s. TIME, Time efficiency is the most important thing here.

If I took that build into a populated place in open. Would that build work? No. Is the Risk and Reward the same? No.

Are the MODES EQUAL? NO.

Far From it.

Edit: You're right though, Ill use whats most effective to win against someone else. And if they dont they are only hurting themselves.

I am asking them to NERF ME. I am too Overpowered.

Don't use open if you see it as a disadvantage. Open doesn't get to dictate how other's play. Your access to the modes makes every Commander equal, which is way more important than a matchmaking tool, the modes being equal.

All anyone can expect is to game alongside those that choose to be there. You don't want to be nerfed, you want to dictate how others play. By your opinion, you can even nerf yourself, if that's what you really want. You have admitted that the tools are in your control, now just leave people be. You can fight, all you want, but only with those that wish to fight back.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Don't use open if you see it as a disadvantage. Open doesn't get to dictate how other's play. Your access to the modes makes every Commander equal, which is way more important than a matchmaking tool, the modes being equal.

All anyone can expect is to game alongside those that choose to be there. You don't want to be nerfed, you want to dictate how others play. By your opinion, you can even nerf yourself, if that's what you really want. You have admitted that the tools are in your control, now just leave people be. You can fight, all you want, but only with those that wish to fight back.

Sigh... You'll just never get it. Oh well.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Don't use open if you see it as a disadvantage. Open doesn't get to dictate how other's play. Your access to the modes makes every Commander equal, which is way more important than a matchmaking tool, the modes being equal.

All anyone can expect is to game alongside those that choose to be there. You don't want to be nerfed, you want to dictate how others play. By your opinion, you can even nerf yourself, if that's what you really want. You have admitted that the tools are in your control, now just leave people be. You can fight, all you want, but only with those that wish to fight back.

I am glad we all established that OPEN is at a disadvantage. Which means the modes are not equal. Thank you.

 

[Frenotx]

Dropping this here since it's relevant to the original post, and somewhat relevant to the abomination this thread has become:
[video=youtube_share;DTpEgRaEhss]https://youtu.be/DTpEgRaEhss[/video]

 

[Mohrgan]

Sigh... You'll just never get it. Oh well.

No, I won't. I can't see a reason for any player to get involved with aspects of the game they can choose not to. Each and every Commander has the ability to control their E|D experience. That each Commander has equal access to all of the game's content, ensures a perfectly level playing field. Just as one tailors their ship for a given task, so can they tailor the environment they game in.

That's the basic disconnect you have. You fail to accept how the game is actually designed, and insist there has to have been some mistake. "How can it be that open/PvP isn't the root of all game play?" The Modes were created to offer the most expansive gaming experience E|D can offer, to as many different types of players as possible. E|D owes a great deal of it's success to this decision. It would make no sense for them to risk that success, for the sake of one grouping of players.

 

[Mohrgan]

I am glad we all established that OPEN is at a disadvantage. Which means the modes are not equal. Thank you.

You misread that, much like how you misread the design of the game. I suggested that "If you see a disadvantage", that doesn't mean that I see one. That's just a petty game people play when they can't better an argument, they try to twist it. This kind of thing doesn't go unnoticed.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

You misread that, much like how you misread the design of the game. I suggested that "If you see a disadvantage", that doesn't mean that I see one. That's just a petty game people play when they can't better an argument, they try to twist it. This kind of thing doesn't go unnoticed.

Explain how OPEN is not at a disadvantage vs SOLO when it comes to pushing PVE tokens. One has oppositon of PVP outfitted ships and the other are NPCs that dont care about you. How are those modes equal?