Doing the same mistakes for 25 years?

[TheHavoc]

Well, Engineering is one of elephant in the room. In pre-announcement stage sounded great "crafting & more advanced upgrade tech system". Implementation turned to be badly balanced and again all centred about horribly time-stretched repetitive activities for progressing.

Yes, for some part you're right - in fact this illustrate the conflict the devs face many times. On the one hand there are the hardcore crafters (e.g. PvP'ers) and on the other hand there are the more "casual" people who craft occasionally, with all the results we have as it was before 3.0 and after. Currently I think engineering is quite well balanced, the mats are fairly easy to obtain in a reasonable amount, and you can't get "godrolls" any more that make you godlike (in case of PvP for example), so everyone has the chance of a "best" result that can't exceed a certain range. Of course one could (again) call that a grind - but I for myself combine the useful with the pleasant and I am good with that.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Yes, for some part you're right - in fact this illustrate the conflict the devs face many times. On the one hand there are the hardcore crafters (e.g. PvP'ers) and on the other hand there are the more "casual" people who craft occasionally, with all the results we have as it was before 3.0 and after.

Well, during not-to-be-mentioned (ahem) DDF, they were pointed out numerous times that their decisions to forcefully conjoin PvP (open) and PvE (singleplayer) parts will bring nothing but trouble and game balance designer nightmares. Obviously as with many other feedback they just completely ignored it, since they've already were 100% set on doing it. Just see how much flak from that we are still taking.

 

[B1rdy]

There are upset people on every gaming forum. You just need to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I like engineering.

Fine, but people having valid, objective complains about that and other parts of this game and the older games as well. It is Ok that are fine with it, but please accept there are people here, who have played and enjoyed other games since the last 25 years and they expect ED at least to not do the same mistakes again!

 

[Stigbob]

Fine, but people having valid, objective complains about that and other parts of this game and the older games as well. It is Ok that are fine with it, but please accept there are people here, who have played and enjoyed other games since the last 25 years and they expect ED at least to not do the same mistakes again!

You misunderstand my position completely I not only fully accept some people don't like some games I'm one of those people. That's why I'm so picky about the games I purchase.

That's why I think it's strange to buy into games not knowing what you'll get, and that people who can't handle being disappointed like that should never be tempted to do it. Anyone capable of taking part in an internet debate about a game is capable of finding out what the game is going to be like and of making an informed purchase in the first place, if the information isn't available wait and see what happens then decide.

Buyer beware.

 

[Ian Skippy]

That's why I think it's strange to buy into games not knowing what you'll get, and that people who can't handle being disappointed like that should never be tempted to do it. Anyone capable of taking part in an internet debate about a game is capable of finding out what the game is going to be like and of making an informed purchase in the first place, if the information isn't available wait and see what happens then decide.

Buyer beware.

That is a bizarre idea that obviously isn't true. You dont know what a game is really like before you play it. For every game I enjoy there are scores of Steam reviews claiming it is a terrible game for arguments that are either false, misguided or, as I later find out, irrelevant. You dont know what you'll get before you buy a game, and anyone who claims to fully know if a game is fun every single time when buying a game is simply lying.

If I had to decide whether to buy ED based on the information on these forums, I'd never get it.

"You havent even got the game, how do you know it sucks?"
"You have only played it for [x] hours, you cant judge yet!"
"You have played for more than [x] hours, so clearly you enjoyed it!"

 

[Stigbob]

That is a bizarre idea that obviously isn't true. You dont know what a game is really like before you play it. For every game I enjoy there are scores of Steam reviews claiming it is a terrible game for arguments that are either false, misguided or, as I later find out, irrelevant. You dont know what you'll get before you buy a game, and anyone who claims to fully know if a game is fun every single time when buying a game is simply lying.

If I had to decide whether to buy ED based on the information on these forums, I'd never get it.

"You havent even got the game, how do you know it sucks?"
"You have only played it for [x] hours, you cant judge yet!"
"You have played for more than [x] hours, so clearly you enjoyed it!"

You can get refunds on steam, lots of games have demo's, if you avoid buying new releases there's always a glut of information and always watch gameplay video's not trailers to gauge how the game actually plays. Playing a mate's copy or asking someone you know whose preferences align with yours is also a good idea.

I have it really easy as Angry Joe's preferences fit mine very closely, I can just go by his score and know I'll agree I don't even need to watch his review (although I do because they are good).

I'd say buying anything without research is bizarre, but as they say there's one born every minute.

 

[krylite]

I wouldn't call those game design choices "mistakes" even with that record of similar polarized perspectives on the older Elite games. The Elite games have their special niche of their choices of a focus on a realistic space game simulation background. Until another publisher can make a fidelity focused game universe and "have it all" with a bunch of handcrafted content within a space fantasy limited backdrop along with mmo player asset persistence, ED would still have its major following of players who want to fly spaceships in ED's massive scope.

 

[Dbrn47]

You can get refunds on steam, lots of games have demo's, if you avoid buying new releases there's always a glut of information and always watch gameplay video's not trailers to gauge how the game actually plays. Playing a mate's copy or asking someone you know whose preferences align with yours is also a good idea.

I have it really easy as Angry Joe's preferences fit mine very closely, I can just go by his score and know I'll agree I don't even need to watch his review (although I do because they are good).

I'd say buying anything without research is bizarre, but as they say there's one born every minute.

2 hours isn't enough to judge a game like Elite, most games don't have demos as they've gone the way of the dodo in favor of buying into early access for cheaper prices, you can research until your fingers fall off and eyes bleed but when you inevitably end up on the fence playing is the only way to find out. Playing a mate's copy isn't part of the equation for everyone either, I'm personally interested in many games that no one I know would even consider playing, Elite is one of them.

I wish I could say I had a 'go to guy' for reviews, but I simply don't, sometimes people I enjoy listening to will completely dump on something I ended up liking or vice versa. My categories generally end up being: Game looks really interesting and fun, buy now. Game looks interesting, but I'll wait for a discount. Game doesn't look like it's for me. Ew, early access, avoid. Here's the thing though, the only way I could ever truly verify if those feelings are correct is to actually play, with the exception of game doesn't look like it's for me. I've had impulse buys be garbage, discounted games be ok but should have just saved my money, and early access games be pretty darn good for early access. Hours and hours of research and opinions aren't always enough to sway me either way. Games can look boring and be really fun to play just like they can look fun but feel really terrible to play, it's a different completely different experience to just watching.

 

[Space Dandy]

That's your choice, I move on from games I don't like as I've so many I enjoy.

Have you ever considered that some of the vocal people on these forum do enjoy parts of the game but find other parts very lacking, putting your condescending attitude aside if only yes men stayed here and no one complained not much would change cause while money talks getting a bad rep hurt just as much.

Sometimes there's just too much rose tinted posters in these forums that don't like to hear "their fave game" being criticized and seem to take it personal.

I did lots of "moaning" about the "seasonal pass" model way way back before it was popular to moan about the lack of content and finally FD dumped this season thing...I can say I highly and I mean highly doubt they would have made this decision if we had all just shut up and left instead of making ourselves heard.

 

[znôrt]

This actually sounds like a good idea, but would be probably hard to enforce (or even properly phrase in legal words ;( )

Things I found particularly bad about this past "gaming huge KS" bandwagon:
- It was used by already well- and long-established parties which didn't really need that money to make a game (like FDev, if true), hence eliminating even feel of being much obligated to backers and even later leading to diminishing backer contribution significance
- It was used by already famous parties who used their "famous brands/names" to stir nostalgic crowds and tricked millions of people (and maybe, themselves) into believing "they made super-success 10 years go, imagine what will they do now!"

All that later lead to tons of bad blood & salt. Leaving many people completely disillusioned with crowdfunding, so small indy teams who desperately need it won't get it (at least that much) anymore

well that's what i meant with backlash of abuse: once this catches on in the public those 'established and famous' will jump off the bandwagon, and go for the next easy thing. for small devs it will still be a necessary strategy so it will continue. where it belongs. this can't actually be enforced, i expect it to happen naturally.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

These aren't flaws

Bongo, whatever meds you are taking, I want some.

 

[Hexcaliber]

Steam hours for ED are completely over-inflated & wrong. Because it counts as "ingame time" the time you simply have the launcher open, you don't even have the game running. The same way it counts "ingame players" - its amount of people who have launcher open, not actually playing the game.

Nor does it include the many backers that still use the standalone launcher rather than the steam client, nor xbox users. If anyone were to look at my steam hours they would see a number around 400. The hours I have played on my laptop while working away from home, and certainly not indicative of the hours I have spent actively playing the game at home on pc using the standalone client.

As for what ED is and is not, it was always going to evolve into being an amalgam of all the previous elite games wrapped in a new up to date coat; that was made very clear during kick starter and many interviews at the time. It is not going to be for everyone, no game ever is.

Frankly, I still do not understand why Frontier chose to release the game on steam, that was their real mistake. I predicted in the announcement thread at the time that releasing on Steam would see the forums devolve into an endless stream of whine from people who would expect a different game entirely. And here we are, nearly three and a half years later, the whine still filling the forums everyday from folks who actually had no flipping clue what the developers wanted from Elite Dangerous, nor how it would play.

 

[Stigbob]

Have you ever considered that some of the vocal people on these forum do enjoy parts of the game but find other parts very lacking, putting your condescending attitude aside if only yes men stayed here and no one complained not much would change cause while money talks getting a bad rep hurt just as much.

I'm one of those people, ED isn't perfect I deal with that world shattering issue by avoiding the things I don't enjoy and concentrating on the things I do enjoy. I also apply this in a wider sense to games and entire genre's.

Since 3.0 dropped the forum has become openly hostile towards players with a positive attitude to the game in some area's, also there are people still demanding things like massive alterations to the mode structure/flight model four years after release. Pointless and counterproductive, or four years too late either way not a clever approach to take.

I don't mean to sound condescending about this but I am so that's how I come across.

Sometimes there's just too much rose tinted posters in these forums that don't like to hear "their fave game" being criticized and seem to take it personal.

There are also some posters who just can't cope with an opposing view, and meltdown when told "no". Don't like modes or the flight model ? move on and next time read first buy later, it's well meant advice the issue is it's being given to a person who can't cope with it.

I did lots of "moaning" about the "seasonal pass" model way way back before it was popular to moan about the lack of content and finally FD dumped this season thing...I can say I highly and I mean highly doubt they would have made this decision if we had all just shut up and left instead of making ourselves heard.

Well done you, if they announce no more expansions it will be down to the community/playerbase reaction to past ones and their judgment on the financial viability of future ones. I'm OK with that as I bought ED for what it was, expansions were always just a bonus and a maybe.

 

[kofeyh]

I like engineering.

Be honest, you also like diving the forums with counter-culture commentary; eg "Who says hitting yourself with a plank of wood hurts? I like it!" and then telling everyone else their opinion (if it differs) has no merit.

--

Frontier tried to sell a modern take on the elite universe; it had no takers with traditional funding (a space/ sci-fi game has always been a hard sell) so it traded nostalgia via kickstarter and got all the backing it could ask for. There's no point asking why the game is basically the same thing as the original; that's what ended up selling.

Don't be too hard on people, Stigbob; Frontier sold nostalgia via kickstarter, then tried to claim an almost entirely different model once funding was secured. That clash of ideals is where we are now. They can't really do both adequately well; and arguably it's not possible to have a dynamic modern interpretation with multiplayer free-for-all, branching missions, endlessly scaling threat, legs, an evolving story and just a ton of player agency, if you're just rehashing the original.

Because the original had almost none of that.

 

[Stigbob]

Be honest, you also like diving the forums with counter-culture commentary; eg "Who says hitting yourself with a plank of wood hurts? I like it!" and then telling everyone else their opinion (if it differs) has no merit.

I like engineering I twiddle with my ships all the time, the new system is an improvement but the old one didn't cause me any grief as I just went with best of three, all the crazy grinding just passed me by.

I tell the truth as I see it, I've never been able to get upset about video games though so to anyone furious I come across as being genuinely baffled as to why they'd inflict the optional entertainment thing they don't like on themselves in the first place. This happens because I am genuinely utterly baffled by people doing it.

Me saying "Don't hit yourself with wood" is a much more realistic prediction to make.

Frontier tried to sell a modern take on the elite universe; it had no takers with traditional funding, so it traded nostalgia via kickstarter and got all the backing it could ask for. Don't ask why the game is basically the same thing as the original; that's what ended up selling.

I like the game being largely the same as the original, that's why I bought it as I liked the original and wanted a modern remake. What did you think you were getting ?.

Don't be too hard on people, stigbob; Frontier sold nostalgia via kickstarter, then tried to claim an almost entirely different model once funding was secured. That clash of ideals is where we are now. They can't really do both adequately.

Nostalgia worked on me, no worries there as I'm happy with what I got as I had realistic expectations.

Kickstarters by their nature are a gamble, wait and see then decide. Let some other mug take the risk or accept that change might be a thing. Buy games not dreams to prevent disappointment, and always research your purchases.

 

[Majic-12]

Let's see now...

- Lengthy thread filled with repetitive, circular arguments that don't actually challenge or confirm the claims in the original post? Check.

- Flurry of desperate straw man bashing targeted at anything even remotely resembling criticism, however slight, of Elite: Dangerous in its current form? Check.

- Blaming players for game design issues? Check.

- Relentless barrage of posts directly or indirectly advising players that Elite: Dangerous is not for them? Check.

Conclusion: Yes, mistakes are being repeated, although how much Frontier has to do with them remains undetermined.

 

[Rob At Work]

Mistakes is the wrong word - that is pure personal opinion.

The game design concept hasn't change in 30 years - check.

Did people want that - check (kickstarter)

Have they delivered - check (this post)

Some people love it, some people hate it - check

 

[Ian Skippy]

2 hours isn't enough to judge a game like Elite

If you'd say you didnt like ED after playing it for two hours he'd tell you you should have played it more and that you cant judge so hastily. Whatever you do, it'll be your fault, the game is awesome and you are just an idiot for either not trying it, trying it too briefly or trying it for too long.

 

[Stigbob]

If you'd say you didnt like ED after playing it for two hours he'd tell you you should have played it more and that you cant judge so hastily. Whatever you do, it'll be your fault, the game is awesome and you are just an idiot for either not trying it, trying it too briefly or trying it for too long.

If you don't like the first chapter of a book, you wont like the second the last or anything in-between. They were all written by the same author after all.

You need to know your own preferences to make good decisions.

 

[verminstar]

Let's see now...

- Lengthy thread filled with repetitive, circular arguments that don't actually challenge or confirm the claims in the original post? Check.

- Flurry of desperate straw man bashing targeted at anything even remotely resembling criticism, however slight, of Elite: Dangerous in its current form? Check.

- Blaming players for game design issues? Check.

- Relentless barrage of posts directly or indirectly advising players that Elite: Dangerous is not for them? Check.

Conclusion: Yes, mistakes are being repeated, although how much Frontier has to do with them remains undetermined.

A few like yerself hitting the nail on the head...check ^