Doing the same mistakes for 25 years?

[Rob At Work]

...I would rather keep bring (hopefully) informed facts about past and present state of the game so new people won't fall into same trap..

This is the way the whole games industry has evolved. it doesn't apply to just ED. It is surprising how many people (and I include myself in this) are falling for the sales pitches which are becoming further and further from what is possible given current technology.

How to stop it? is to buy completed games only. This still wont stop marketing departments over hyping their product though, we all fall for that from time to time.

 

[Stigbob]

Sorry but:
a) I've invested my money in it before it was made, lured by promises many of which were later abandoned

You should never ever back a kickstarter or take a gamble unless you are happy with the outcome being different to how you imagined it. If that bothers you stick to finished products only.

I bought ED after playing the combat demo and reading up on how the game would work, hence no complaints from me as I had realistic expectations.

b) Devs promised it will get better with time

It has got better with time, the dev's also said they would add to it that's happened as well. That doesn't mean the games foundation will ever change.

c) I've invested lot of time in it, hoping that it will get better

Now that's just ludicrous, play a game you like instead. Playing a game you don't enjoy because you think it might change at some point is just plain wrong. I mean it completely misses the point of what video games are supposed to be.

So no, I am not just going to "shut up and go away". I would rather keep bring (hopefully) informed facts about past and present state of the game so new people won't fall into same trap.

I'm not telling you to shut up and go away, I'm telling you I have no sympathy for the outcome of your poor purchasing choices.

Read first buy later.

 

[Tyger]

'poor purchasing choice'.

There right there, is the nail on the head.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

I'm not telling you to shut up and go away, I'm telling you I have no sympathy for the outcome of your poor purchasing choices.

I am not looking for sympathy from you specifically, so don't see why you think I care?

Now that's just ludicrous, play a game you like instead. Playing a game you don't enjoy because you think it might change at some point is just plain wrong. I mean it completely misses the point of what video games are supposed to be.

How on earth I am supposed to know how game will be if I didn't fully experience it? I am trying to avoid judging something I didn't actually experience properly.
Problem is, in ED to "unlock" lot of game, you have to invest a lot of time - but before you do it, you have no idea what's you up to.

 

[TheHavoc]

Still this doesn't mean I have to shut up about state of the game.

I haven't said that you shall shut up about state of the game.

But as also has been said by others before, there's a subforum where to post suggestions for later enhancement or bugfixing or personal wishes or whatever - on the contrary, I'd like to encourage to do so, but please in a constructive way. This thread is not constructive at all, and that's the reason why this raises tempers - on both sides.

EDIT : with this I thought you meant me

Still this doesn't mean I have to shut up about state of the game.

- no offense .

 

[RidingTheFlow]

I haven't said that you shall shut up about state of the game.

But as also has been said by others before, there's a subforum where to post suggestions for later enhancement or bugfixing or personal wishes or whatever - on the contrary, I'd like to encourage to do so, but please in a constructive way. This thread is not constructive at all, and that's the reason why this raises tempers - on both sides.

Thank you for the advice. I've been on this forum since KS times so made plenty of suggestions.
The way suggestions work here:
- FDev decides to do something
- Sometimes they just announce "we have decided to do it this way"
- Sometimes, they also go to suggestions forum and find some post which resembles their intent and say "we see you wanted it this way"
- Then they often completely change it "in process of making" anyway

Latest C&P "forum" turned out to be same way. Unless I see real change, not going to bother anymore.

This thread entirely constructive in at least two points:
- dev should concentrate on reducing timesinks which are not fun
- dev should either clearly state they don't care about majority feedback or demonstrate they care for majority feedback instead of cherry-picking

Raising tempers I'd leave to affected parties.

 

[Stigbob]

I am not looking for sympathy from you specifically, so don't see why you think I care?

I think you'd benefit from applying how picky I am about video games at the point I apply it, which is always pre purchase.

How on earth I am supposed to know how game will be if I didn't fully experience it? I am trying to avoid judging something I didn't actually experience properly.
Problem is, in ED to "unlock" lot of game, you have to invest a lot of time - but before you do it, you have no idea what's you up to.

I managed to make a choice I didn't regret, flight demo and some reading about the specific things I was interested in such as can I opt out of open if I feel like it and have they avoided the obvious EVE pitfalls. End result I'm a happy gamer.

You don't need to keep at a game to know if you'll enjoy it, it's a binary thing there are only two states. If you don't you don't and you should stop, if you read a book and don't enjoy the first chapter stop reading because the rest of the book was written by the same author.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

You don't need to keep at a game to know if you'll enjoy it, it's a binary thing there are only two states. If you don't you don't and you should stop, if you read a book and don't enjoy the first chapter stop reading because the rest of the book was written by the same author.

Well, I did stop playing ED because I don't enjoy it. Last year I probably played to ~10 hours, just to try too see if "new" things were any worth the fuss (hint - they weren't really).
Still I have a lot of attachment to Elite series (played all games in series) so would like a good Elite game to appear some day. Hence I enjoy talking about it.

 

[Stigbob]

Well, I did stop playing ED because I don't enjoy it.
Still I have a lot of attachment to Elite series so would like a good Elite game to appear some day. Hence I enjoy talking about it.

That's your choice, I move on from games I don't like as I've so many I enjoy.

 

[znôrt]

How to stop it? is to buy completed games only.

or restrict investment in kickstarters or early access to small emerging teams, which is what these schemes are intended and make sense for.

i've invested in only 2 early access games and am quite happy, both for the actual product and for the fact that it made it possible. it was obvious big industry was going to abuse this model, and it will backlash on small developments too, but in time i hope things are going to normalize as people learns, since it is indeed a very good model to get good stuff done that otherwise wouldn't exist.

for the record: i would be banging my head on the wall if i had kickstarted elite, and i'm looking forward for star citizen to become a cornerstone example in this necessary education.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

or restrict investment in kickstarters or early access to small emerging teams, which is what these schemes are intended and make sense for.

This actually sounds like a good idea, but would be probably hard to enforce (or even properly phrase in legal words ;( )

Things I found particularly bad about this past "gaming huge KS" bandwagon:
- It was used by already well- and long-established parties which didn't really need that money to make a game (like FDev, if true), hence eliminating even feel of being much obligated to backers and even later leading to diminishing backer contribution significance
- It was used by already famous parties who used their "famous brands/names" to stir nostalgic crowds and tricked millions of people (and maybe, themselves) into believing "they made super-success 10 years go, imagine what will they do now!"

All that later lead to tons of bad blood & salt. Leaving many people completely disillusioned with crowdfunding, so small indy teams who desperately need it won't get it (at least that much) anymore

 

[TheHavoc]

Thank you for the advice. I've been on this forum since KS times so made plenty of suggestions.
The way suggestions work here:
- FDev decides to do something
- Sometimes they just announce "we have decided to do it this way"
- Sometimes, they also go to suggestions forum and find some post which resembles their intent and say "we see you wanted it this way"
- Then they often completely change it "in process of making" anyway

Latest C&P "forum" turned out to be same way. Unless I see real change, not going to bother anymore.

This thread entirely constructive in at least two points:
- dev should concentrate on reducing timesinks which are not fun
- dev should either clearly state they don't care about majority feedback or demonstrate they care for majority feedback instead of cherry-picking

Raising tempers I'd leave to affected parties.

I agree that single proposals/suggestions whatever to do with the game seem not to be successful, I think most effective could be a poll on the forum. Then I think it would be more likely to be implemented as FD gets a closer impression as this would be a more representative way of what the community wants. But also then - to be realistic - the devs have to figure out what is most wanted but also what has to be done most urgently to fix certain bugs/errors and so on, I don't think this is easy. And when I see what Elite has become/evolved to since release then this is one of the fastest forward pacing games referring to story development, content delivery and bug fixing.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

I think most effective could be a poll on the forum

Gotcha. Unfortunately FDev decides polls are anathema and so they went to the extent of actually banning them on these forums (not often I've seen this, even on much more draconian communities).
I can only surmise polls too often showed that majority wants quite different thing of what FDev claims it to be. So they've chosen rather to eliminate that uncomfortable evidence, so its still possible to do things way they want and still claim (with no proof) that "most players think its better this way".

 

[Stigbob]

Gotcha. Unfortunately FDev decides polls are anathema and so they went to the extent of actually banning them on these forums (not often I've seen this, even on much more draconian communities).
I can only surmise polls too often showed that majority wants quite different thing of what FDev claims it to be. So they've chosen rather to eliminate that uncomfortable evidence, so its still possible to do things way they want and still claim (with no proof) that "most players think its better this way".

Just my opinion, but I think they killed polls because they were upsetting the open only advocates due to the huge outpouring of near total payer indifference their demands were met with.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Back when the kickstarter had just finished one of the moderators at the time found an old article of letters to a gaming magazine, where someone was complaining about the original Elite.

The complaints were exactly the same as the complaints about Elite Dangerous. It just goes to show that gamers have not moved on in over 30 years and don't appear to have the imagination to think up new things to moan about!

Unless... That Which Sucked 30 Years Ago Still Sucks Today... hmm...

 

[TheHavoc]

Gotcha. Unfortunately FDev decides polls are anathema and so they went to the extent of actually banning them on these forums (not often I've seen this, even on much more draconian communities).
I can only surmise polls too often showed that majority wants quite different thing of what FDev claims it to be. So they've chosen rather to eliminate that uncomfortable evidence, so its still possible to do things way they want and still claim (with no proof) that "most players think its better this way".

"Got'EM" - at the most . Referring to this forum I can't judge that - in fact in the past I saw a few polls here but I don't remember when and where - maybe CG related. Other question: is there any feature in Elite that came with content updates that you did not welcome ? If so and you do not favour the overall game design of Elite in general - indeed then it's the wrong game for you.

In fact I think Elite is a quite special kind of computer game, if not absolutely unique regarding that it is a rock-hard simulation (as I do not hesitate to point out where I can) in any means, keeping the tradition of the former Elite parts, of course this might quench people sooner or later.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Just my opinion, but I think they killed polls because they were upsetting the open only advocates due to the huge outpouring of near total payer indifference their demands were met with.

Umm, I don't believe FDev cares much about "upset" people. Even casual skim of these forums shows that

Other question: is there any feature in Elite that came with content updates that you did not welcome ?

Well, Engineering is one of elephant in the room. In pre-announcement stage sounded great "crafting & more advanced upgrade tech system". Implementation turned to be badly balanced and again all centred about horribly time-stretched repetitive activities for progressing.

 

[Stigbob]

Umm, I don't believe FDev cares much about "upset" people. Even casual skim of these forums shows that

Well, Engineering is one of elephant in the room. In pre-announcement stage sounded great "crafting & more advanced upgrade tech system". Implementation turned to be badly balanced and again all centred about horribly time-stretched repetitive activities for progressing.

There are upset people on every gaming forum. You just need to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I like engineering.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Thank you for the advice. I've been on this forum since KS times so made plenty of suggestions.
The way suggestions work here:
- FDev decides to do something
- Sometimes they just announce "we have decided to do it this way"
- Sometimes, they also go to suggestions forum and find some post which resembles their intent and say "we see you wanted it this way"
- Then they often completely change it "in process of making" anyway

Latest C&P "forum" turned out to be same way. Unless I see real change, not going to bother anymore.

This thread entirely constructive in at least two points:
- dev should concentrate on reducing timesinks which are not fun
- dev should either clearly state they don't care about majority feedback or demonstrate they care for majority feedback instead of cherry-picking

Raising tempers I'd leave to affected parties.

This is an important point. While I am pleased that FD is willing to listen to the community and change stuff, I think it would be so much better if they would do so BEFORE introducing them and already having made up their mind. I would feel a lot more comfortable about 3.4 if they'd actually tell us what they think the new explo/mining gameplay should be, and ask for our feedback BEFORE they implement it...

 

[metascrawl]

I do still play it a bit, in the vein hope it will get better. But i've stopped putting the time into it i used to and I've given up trying to reach consensus in the community on what needs to change. More frustrating than the game itself, for me, is the hostility this community shows anyone who criticises the game and the 'git gud' brigade.

If you're still playing the game in the hope that it will get better, I completely understand that, as I made clear. But that's contrary to what you said in the comment I was responding to.

Also, your point is rather a false dichotomoy. My options aren't either travel the world or post a comment on a forum. If I may say, it was a rather silly thing to suggest.

I said "think about how much there is to see and do in the world" - sure that includes travelling, but it also includes other games, other forums, movies, books and many, many other things you could be doing from the comfort of your own home.