Powerplay should not be made Open-only. Here's why... [EDITED]

[Genar-Hofoen]

Chess doesn't usually include tokens. Do you mean pawns? Because if you are going to mock someone, at least be accurate. Unless you are referring to alternate pieces unusual chess variants can use.

Presumably you meant to try and asert a superior understanding. It doesn't help your cause, either way

Powers are kings and queens; well, minor factions are probably more queens, but I digress. We are the pawns. Sacrificial in nature. Frontier included AI as pawns to make up the numbers and ensure undermining (for example) would function across modes.

Honestly I don't care at this point. Folks just want to be right and win arguments and what ostensibly happens to the game seems to be less important.

Again, if the developer is unable to progress changes, even with consultation, then that should be a huge concern for the future of the game, it's growth and the ability of the developer to solve the issues they've been asked to address.

Honestly not mocking anyone. Objectively pointing out it was a bad analogy. Mocking would be me resorting to veiled insult and laughing at the poster, which I most certainly am not.

Powerplay. The closest analogy to chess is the pieces are the Powers and PvE tokens, and then you have the players - seen and unseen.

And that's the second time you've said something about trying to be right and win arguments - I mean, the whole point of debating the merits or not of making Powerplay playable only in Open game client connectivity mode is that some arguments/reasoning may be better than others - and in my opinion, trying to say the folks who move the pieces are the pawns, is incorrect, if you're trying to cite chess as an analogy. The folks who move the PvE tokens are the players of the game, the pieces are the tokens.

Now, it is being suggested that "all players should be seen" - i.e. if a player is moving stuff to or from a Powerplay system, their ship should be visible. This, again, on the face of it is reasonable. However, this is E: D, a P2P-based game, and I predict right now that if Frontier go ahead with this, that;

1) It removes content from those who do not desire to play in Open game client connectivity mode

2) The unscrupulous players who run bots will just find ways of playing in Open without their game clients connecting to other game clients

3) Those who desire to still not encounter other player ships will find ways of playing in Open without their game client connecting to other game clients

resulting in

4) No overall change in Powerplay outcomes or the amount of cannon fodder for those wishing to solve Powerplay by way of blowing up other ships.

The Powerplay conundrum is a direct result of trying to fit Powerplay into a game with P2P architecture. That's the cause. Trying to treat the symptom in the proposed manner is no cure, nor will it be a way to convert Powerplay into a purely-direct-PvP game, which is what seems to be the thinking behind Sandro's proposal.

 

[Perseus]

So smug yeesh.

So, are you trying to argue that the developer has no understanding of what players want? I'm confused here



Stop snipping posts to suit yourself and cutting my argument out.

S/he's good at that, isn't s/he. I think the mentality comes from playing in solo too much. See something that threatens you? No problem, just ignore it.

 

[Genus]

The Powerplay conundrum is a direct result of trying to fit Powerplay into a game with P2P architecture. That's the cause. Trying to treat the symptom in the proposed manner is no cure, nor will it be a way to convert Powerplay into a purely-direct-PvP game, which is what seems to be the thinking behind Sandro's proposal.

That.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

True - however as there is no requirement to own the game to create a forum account and that the total number of forum users is small in relation to the number of franchise units sold, simply asking forum users does not necessarily give an accurate picture of what "most players want".

The method used last time Frontier wanted to find out what the player-base wanted was an official poll - not on the forums. We'll see if they do that again. Arguably this topic is hotter than the last one polled.

Actually I'd welcome an official poll-via-email to all customers with an E: D account, like the last time.

That'd be way more decisive than the forum bickering

Besides, even if a vote is that Open-only wins, and it goes ahead, I predict the Powerplay situation stays exactly the same due to the P2P nature of E: D

 

[kofeyh]

Honestly not mocking anyone. Objectively pointing out it was a bad analogy. Mocking would be me resorting to veiled insult and laughing at the poster, which I most certainly am not.

Powerplay. The closest analogy to chess is the pieces are the Powers and PvE tokens, and then you have the players - seen and unseen.

And that's the second time you've said something about trying to be right and win arguments - I mean, the whole point of debating the merits or not of making Powerplay playable only in Open game client connectivity mode is that some arguments/reasoning may be better than others - and in my opinion, trying to say the folks who move the pieces are the pawns, is incorrect, if you're trying to cite chess as an analogy. The folks who move the PvE tokens are the players of the game, the pieces are the tokens.

Now, it is being suggested that "all players should be seen" - i.e. if a player is moving stuff to or from a Powerplay system, their ship should be visible. This, again, on the face of it is reasonable. However, this is E: D, a P2P-based game, and I predict right now that if Frontier go ahead with this, that;

1) It removes content from those who do not desire to play in Open game client connectivity mode

2) The unscrupulous players who run bots will just find ways of playing in Open without their game clients connecting to other game clients

3) Those who desire to still not encounter other player ships will find ways of playing in Open without their game client connecting to other game clients

resulting in

4) No overall change in Powerplay outcomes or the amount of cannon fodder for those wishing to solve Powerplay by way of blowing up other ships.

The Powerplay conundrum is a direct result of trying to fit Powerplay into a game with P2P architecture. That's the cause. Trying to treat the symptom in the proposed manner is no cure, nor will it be a way to convert Powerplay into a purely-direct-PvP game, which is what seems to be the thinking behind Sandro's proposal.

You can't halt change because well the topology of the network is peer to peer.

That's a very weak argument and reads more as a convenient excuse, knowing full well that's the model the developer is using and likely cannot now change.

This is not really a valid argument to wholesale suspend changes. Some of the other concerns? Fair enough.

 

[Sterling MH]

Stop snipping posts to suit yourself and cutting my argument out.

Nope. The post links back to the original so it can be seen. And theres a reason why the post decorum is to not keep nesting back to the OP in replies: it means there's redundant noninformation making the signal impossible to read.

You DO know what it means when it says "(Source)", right?

You can't halt change

Ah, so when someone breaks into your house and changes the contents of it to contain less of it, you shrug your shoulders and go "Well, can't halt change, can we?"

No. No, not even you buy that hogwash. Oddly enough, neither does anyone else when you use it on them

 

[Genus]

Actually I'd welcome an official poll-via-email to all customers with an E: D account, like the last time.

That'd be way more decisive than the forum bickering

Besides, even if a vote is that Open-only wins, and it goes ahead, I predict the Powerplay situation stays exactly the same due to the P2P nature of E: D

Chapter and verse.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

You can't halt change because well the topology of the network is peer to peer.

That's a very weak argument and reads more as a convenient excuse, knowing full well that's the model the developer is using and likely cannot now change.

This is not really a valid argument to wholesale suspend changes.

That's true - I can't halt any change Frontier want to make - it's their game, not mine.

I still do have the privilege of pointing out where their intended change may not succeed in its goals, and why. It's up to Frontier to weigh up the pros and cons of the proposed change and to decide, and as someone with some background in IT and programming, I can point out why their game architecture isn't allowing Powerplay to live up to the potential lots of folks think it should or can.

It'll be interesting to see how things pan out if Frontier go ahead with this change. If I'm wrong, and it all works out as intended, then I've learned from it.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Yes, indeed. But what you're doing is talking about cybernetic open systems relationships.

Which also just flew over the heads of the Designers.

As for players, just get more stealth troops. Same for everyone and what Squadrons are for.

The sonic boom is just now coming in...

 

[kofeyh]

Nope. The post links back to the original so it can be seen. And theres a reason why the post decorum is to not keep nesting back to the OP in replies: it means there's redundant noninformation making the signal impossible to read.

You DO know what it means when it says "(Source)", right?



Ah, so when someone breaks into your house and changes the contents of it to contain less of it, you shrug your shoulders and go "Well, can't halt change, can we?"

No. No, not even you buy that hogwash. Oddly enough, neither does anyone else when you use it on them

A developer making decisions about the way their game works, has nothing to do with home invasion.

I don't own elite. I have paid for access to it. Much like a hotel. It would be odd for a hotel not to service rooms. Or fix faulty lighting or remove an item from the room that was faulty.

Assuming elite is your home, and you must defend it is most noble. But is not your home. Or mine. We just rent rooms from frontier.

That it can feel like home though? That's a testament to when frontier can manage to build good things. And maintain them.

 

[Genus]

The sonic boom is just now coming in...

I laughed...twice.

 

[CMDR NightsLong]

A developer making decisions about the way their game works, has nothing to do with home invasion.

I don't own elite. I have paid for access to it. Much like a hotel. It would be odd for a hotel not to service rooms. Or fix faulty lighting or remove an item from the room that was faulty.

Assuming elite is your home, and you must defend it is most noble. But is not your home. Or mine. We just rent rooms from frontier.

That it can feel like home though? That's a testament to when frontier can manage to build good things. And maintain them.

Totally agree people seem to get confused about this.. or don't read the EULA

 

[WR3ND]

Power play is currently broken and played primary in Solo PG by a tiny group of players. It is essentially a dead mechanic because of this.

And almost no one in Solo or PG or even Open would care about PP except that suddenly it has been drawn into the old Open vs Solo debate. Now suddenly everyone is lining up behind old battle lines and very few are seeing the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that humans, like all particles in the universe, will always follow the path of least resistance. This is a basic principle of physics and human psychology. Solo/PG is easier, passive, non-competitive, and yet this is also wholly in opposition to the spirit of competition that PP was supposed to support. So is it really surprising that the current "least resistance" path for PP is being in a defecto death-like coma?

Without direct competition, PP in Solo/PG is like playing chess while opponents pieces are invisible. PP needs to be Open for the mechanics to have any meaning, just like chess pieces need to be visible for chess to have any meaning.

I don't see the value in making current content PVP exclusive when instead it could be made to make more sense in the game as a whole and without removing game content and relevance from players regardless of what mode they're in.

Making Powerplay Open only may fix certain aspects of it when approached in specific ways, but in other ways it completely breaks it by removing it from the game. In that regard, it's curing the disease by killing the patient.

Tangent anecdote: I found I could play chess in my head in high school with others looking at a board and still win. Not sure how good I'd be at it now, but I'd probably manage alright.

 

[lefty1117]

I don't see the value in making current content PVP exclusive when instead it could be made to make more sense in the game as a whole and without removing game relevance from players regardless of what mode they're in.

Making Powerplay Open only may fix certain aspects of it when approached in specific ways, but in other ways it completely breaks it by removing it for the game. In that regard, it's curing the diseases by killing the patient.

Tangent anecdote: I found I could play chess in my head in high school with others looking at a board and still win. Not sure how good I'd be at it now, but I'd probably manage alright.

You'd still be able to interact with PP via the missions that are being proposed. Voila, powerplay participation for solo/pg players.

 

[kofeyh]

That's true - I can't halt any change Frontier want to make - it's their game, not mine.

I still do have the privilege of pointing out where their intended change may not succeed in its goals, and why. It's up to Frontier to weigh up the pros and cons of the proposed change and to decide, and as someone with some background in IT and programming, I can point out why their game architecture isn't allowing Powerplay to live up to the potential lots of folks think it should or can.

It'll be interesting to see how things pan out if Frontier go ahead with this change. If I'm wrong, and it all works out as intended, then I've learned from it.

Yeah I like to tell other people who have a similar profession, which then clearly makes me an expert, that they are wrong all the time too. Even if I have pretty strong knowledge in an area, I tend to not tell people what to do, primarily because there can be any number of contexts I am not aware of.

Honestly I've given feedback to frontier too. And as I have said, i have concerns as well.

Yes it will be interesting. They are also under extreme pressure to not make a change that is contentious. And they have people saying this should not happen because I have some feels and also am very smart about this too.

I think Sandy has a very hard road ahead of him. He's a brave guy. He keeps trying. Not always in ways I agree with. But that's okay. Because he's still trying.

Cause the alternative is they just roll over and give up after being stymied by endless protest and the game goes into the long tail.

Edited.

 

[Sylveria]

Actually I'd welcome an official poll-via-email to all customers with an E: D account, like the last time.

That'd be way more decisive than the forum bickering

Besides, even if a vote is that Open-only wins, and it goes ahead, I predict the Powerplay situation stays exactly the same due to the P2P nature of E: D

Completely agreed.

I also think any future game changes being presented should first be directed to customer polls then presented in the Feedback Forums second... not the reverse.

Anyone can make a forum account, but not everyone is actually a customer who has a forum account. (just like anyone can create a Reddit account, but it doesn't mean they're a customer)

 

[EUS]

The whole point of contention is that PP started one way, now he's stating that PP is the official way to implement consensual PvP.
Ie, you play PP, you are consenting to PvP.

 

[Genus]

Completely agreed.

I also think any future game changes being presented should first be directed to customer polls then presented in the Feedback Forums second... not the reverse.

Indeed. Although building trust should also be focused upon, in order to lend weight to the perceived results of such polls.

 

[lefty1117]

Completely agreed.

I also think any future game changes being presented should first be directed to customer polls then presented in the Feedback Forums second... not the reverse.

Anyone can make a forum account, but not everyone is actually a customer who has a forum account. (just like anyone can create a Reddit account, but it doesn't mean they're a customer)

Not to divert the thread but I don't agree with this point. Regardless of the activity levels here the forums do not represent the majority of the player base. FD should be using their own internal metrics on what parts of the game are being played, what modes, how many people, to guide their areas of focus. I suspect that they already are. Then, player feedback is taken to improve and refine.

 

[Sterling MH]

Ie, you play PP, you are consenting to PvP.

Since you can't PvP in solo or a PvE PG, if this were true, then nobody outside the PvP groups and Open would be doing PP and there's nothing to deal with. Or it's not true, in which case the argument fails.