How to fix Engineers powercreep without upsetting those who grinded for it?

babelfisch

babelfisch
How to fix Engineers powercreep without upsetting those who grinded for it?

It's actually quite simple and I wonder why I haven't thought about it earlier (probably because I don't really care):

Just increase all ships base stats by something like 1.5 times. Make them faster, more maneuverable, let them jump further, make them harder, increase weapon damage etc. Tweak Engineers modifiers so that engineered ships perform the same like they do know.
Nobody can complain: Everyone gets better base ships, including NPCs and Engineered ships don't get something taken away from them, it just makes the gap smaller.

Thoughts?

PS
That's only relevant if you want to fix power creep. If you think everything is well that's fair too.
 
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-VR- Max Factor

-VR- Max Factor
I had a similar thought. When there is a full suite of Guardian Hybrid modules, make them the standard modules, introduce engineering to them, but only have them slightly better then the current G5's. As the Hybrid modules are virtually the equivalent of a G3, it straight away reduces the powercreep as everyone will have G3 modules as standard and the high end will be just above current G5.
 

NeilF

NeilF
babelfisch said:
How to fix Engineers powercreep without upsetting those who grinded for it?

It's actually quite simple and I wonder why I haven't thought about it earlier (probably because I don't really care):

Just increase all ships base stats by something like 1.5 times. Make them faster, more maneuverable, let them jump further, make them harder, increase weapon damage etc. Tweak Engineers modifiers so that engineered ships perform the same like they do know.
Nobody can complain: Everyone gets better base ships, including NPCs and Engineered ships don't get something taken away from them, it just makes the gap smaller.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Surely it makes no real difference if in effect you squash the ceiling down [noob], or squish the floor up :)? The relative outcome will be the same?

Personally, for sake of simplicity, I'd just do something like basically half all the performance improvements of combat related Engineering effects... Which according to my noddy maths is akin to your outcome?
 
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Deleted member 140600

D
babelfisch said:
How to fix Engineers powercreep without upsetting those who grinded for it?

It's actually quite simple and I wonder why I haven't thought about it earlier (probably because I don't really care):

Just increase all ships base stats by something like 1.5 times. Make them faster, more maneuverable, let them jump further, make them harder, increase weapon damage etc. Tweak Engineers modifiers so that engineered ships perform the same like they do know.
Nobody can complain: Everyone gets better base ships, including NPCs and Engineered ships don't get something taken away from them, it just makes the gap smaller.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Yes, we could also all fly in sidewinder and remove all other ships.
 

Sterling MH

Banned
S
Can't be done. THE VERY BEST you could do is swap out pre-built kits to add in to newly bought modules and make engineered items no longer bought in the rebuy, they die with the ship.
 

deyot

D
babelfisch said:
How to fix Engineers powercreep without upsetting those who grinded for it?
Just increase all ships base stats by something like 1.5 times...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Quite a smart idea. And people that don't engineer would be happy.
The only problem I see is that engineers' impact at imbalance isn't equal in all areas. I don't have problem with increased jump range but ridiculous shield strength in some cases is the issue. So, yeah, but the increase of the base stats shouldn't be equal in all the fields of engineering. So increase base weapon strength or base shield strength more than base speed or jump range.
 

Vedmo

Vedmo
It isn't at all rare for technical advancements that were once acquired at a premium to turn into base offerings. Other than hull modifications, engineering isn't doing anything to base ship stats though, it is changing modules. Offering g3 modules for sale, similar to enhanced performance thrusters, for a bit more credits would be fine with me.

I don't see how any of it would address power creep though (and not convinced it needs a fix).
 

zimms

zimms
Looking forward to ships being able to do a 360° within 0.1 seconds.

But I guess this isn't a serious thread anyway.
 

babelfisch

babelfisch
zimms said:
Looking forward to ships being able to do a 360° within 0.1 seconds.

But I guess this isn't a serious thread anyway.
Click to expand...

I guess you didn't understand it. Which ship is able to do a 360 within 0.1 seconds?

NeilF said:
Surely it makes no real difference if in effect you squash the ceiling down [noob], or squish the floor up :)? The relative outcome will be the same?

Personally, for sake of simplicity, I'd just do something like basically half all the performance improvements of combat related Engineering effects... Which according to my noddy maths is akin to your outcome?
Click to expand...

The outcome would be the same, but with my proposal nobody could complain that their toys got taken away from them... ;)
 

Old Duck

Old Duck
Power creep is just an issue for PvP, right? A player builds a 10,000,000 mega-joule ship, so now we need super-weapons to make a dent in it, for example. This is probably the main reason I don't even bother with PvP, because it's gotten ridiculously out-of-hand.


Now while I don't go chasing the meta "god ship" builds for PvE because I don't need to, I do like Engineers giving us the ability to compensate for weaknesses that don't normally make sense to me, like the 500 / 600 meter DPS dropoff on lasers, incredibly low top-speeds on certain ships, insufficient power plants on other ships, etc.
 

Deleted member 38366

D
In a sense, it can't work I'm afraid.

After all, someone i.e. with a Grade 5 Weapon was promised relative gains compared to vanilla. So that's maybe +60% now as a generic Grade 5 example.
After such a theoretical general buff on all base Stats, that figure would now read +45%. Folks will feel cheated for the missing +15% they grinded to achieve.

The only way IMHO would be to implement new Equipment sets that essentially uniformly surpass and replace old Equipment (G5 Engineered = still good but obsolete for min/max'ers as it can be slightly surpassed by the new Tech).
Armour, Shields, Boosters, Weapons, the whole nine yards of Combat-relevant Equipment. Call it "Equipment NextGen".

Aimed solely at affording to retire the entire Engineers issue, those could come with the envisioned base Stats, while applying any Engineering could now be limited to a far more sane regime that avoids the massive balance issues.
All that could be packaged into a "The Industry has now finished producing improved Tech, based on studies of both Guardian and Thargoid Technology, available at conventional Outfitting throughout the Galaxy".

Benefits :
- gives folks new toys (shiny new names) to purchase and Engineer
- the new Tech when flown to the Engineers limits Engineering Stats gains to sane and more balanced regions
- still keeps G5-Engineered Equipment competitive, except the new Vanilla Equipment is already somewhat on par with Engineered legacy Equipment
- is lore-friendly and technically doesn't rob anyone... it just extends a fresh carrot on a new stick, which however is found far healthier for the Game Balance than the old/original Engineers one

PS.
During Engineers Beta, my suggestion (looking at the Stats of all those Blueprints) was to limit all Offensive and Defensive (Combat-relevant) Blueprints to max. +30%.
That would have been in line with maximum Synthesis (which during its own Beta got amended from an original +50% [Premium] to +30% [Premium]... for *drumroll* balancing reasons).

Unfortunately Engineers kept most of its Stats increases, leading to the situation that unfolded when it was released.
But with such a leap-frog approach placing everyone on a new (better balanced) playing field, it can still be achieved without having to perform painful and error-prone brute-force surgery and rebalancing (nerf/buff) attempts to the old, broken Meta.
 
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NecasekO

N
Unfortunately, current engineered values are quite broken in some cases. Moving baseline closer to broken values wouldn't help much.

Also, whatever change is implemented, someone WILL complain. I'd much rather see a well balanced game (with some people complaining) than an easy fix (with some people complaining).
 
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