Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

[Red Anders]

That is not what FD sold players with the LEP. That is a nonsensical example that doesn't reflect any actual business practice, anywhere.



It's incomprehensible nonsense, so I would say no. There is no value because you're making up a nonsensical example that has no relationship to buying a retail product.



If you are trying to compare that ridiculous example to an LEP purchase, then you are either trolling or you are again trying to defend FD at all costs because you can't handle the thought of FD having done something wrong with how they treated LEP customers.

Sorry but you really need to do better here. We aren't talking about a nonsensical example with a theoretical amount of strawberry candies here. We are talking about a specific product that FD advertised, sold and has failed to deliver to their customers within a reasonable timeframe.

Like I said I give up. Argue with yourself about reasonable timeframes and delivery. Better yet, take it to court if you're so certain that your imagined delivery timeline has such a firm legal standing that it forms a basis for legal action. I don't mean tell us again about how little we understand of the law; this is the internet, for all I know you flip burgers for a living and once watched an episode of Perry Mason. Take it to court and then come back to laugh at me when you win. I'll be right here.

The example I used was a direct paraphrasing of the LEP by the way, as per Ant's post. Quite surprised you can't see that. It says that something will be delivered now (the bag of sweets) and that it will include some specified content (the strawberry ones, let's call them landing on planets without an atmosphere). Then it says there is an intention to deliver something specific in the future (some more strawberry sweets, or let's say more planetary landing gameplay including atmospheric planets) but does not specify by when, just that it will come at some point. It also says that some other things (some more updates/some more sweets) which are not specified directly in terms of type or number at all other than in the vaguest terms, will be delivered and again does not specify by when.

That is literally in the post by Ant which shows the LEP details. You know, the one that shows:

NO SPECIFIED NUMBER OF UPDATES
NO TIMELINE AT ALL FOR WHEN ANY UPDATES WILL BE DELIVERED
NO DETAILS OF ANY SPECIFIED CONTENT AT ALL OTHER THAN THE PLANETARY GAMEPLAY

Look at it. I am not making this up. That is what it says. It makes no difference what you want it to say, or wish it said, or thought it said. What matters if you're going to be accusing people of fraudulent behaviour is what it actually does say.

If you disagree, reply with the number of updates. Or the date that any particular update will be issued by. Or the period after which no more updates will be delivered.

If you cannot do that, anything else you say is hot air.

 

[Devari]

Like I said I give up. Argue with yourself about reasonable timeframes and delivery. Better yet, take it to court if you're so certain that your imagined delivery timeline has such a firm legal standing that it forms a basis for legal action. I don't mean tell us again about how little we understand of the law; this is the internet, for all I know you flip burgers for a living and once watched an episode of Perry Mason.

I prefer watching Matlock actually. And Better Call Saul. Two best TV lawyers, ever.

Take it to court and then come back to laugh at me when you win. I'll be right here.

I have no interest in taking anyone to court, and I don't even own an LEP myself. I will, however, make a strong argument for why FD should start treating the LEP owners better than they have so far.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Like I said I give up. Argue with yourself about reasonable timeframes and delivery. Better yet, take it to court if you're so certain that your imagined delivery timeline has such a firm legal standing that it forms a basis for legal action. I don't mean tell us again about how little we understand of the law; this is the internet, for all I know you flip burgers for a living and once watched an episode of Perry Mason. Take it to court and then come back to laugh at me when you win. I'll be right here.

This thread is done, Red called it!

 

[LeoBartlet]

....FD should start treating the LEP owners better than they have so far.

Just out of curiosity but how exactly are they to go about that?

I buy season passes for games all the time, it doesn't make me any more important or special than someone who settles for the standard edition. All it guarantees is I'll get whatever was stated in the terms and conditions.

As Red pointed out the LEP description was vague regarding number of updates and the time frame. I imagine that was deliberately vague because they were offering a life time pass and not something that'll be out over the course of 6-12 months.

 

[Devari]

Just out of curiosity but how exactly are they to go about that?

Better communication with the player base, setting specific timelines for when the promised content is going to be delivered (i.e., space legs, boarding actions and landing on atmospheric worlds) and acknowledging the impact that their funding model changes have had on LEP owners. In other words, they need to start fixing everything they haven't been doing properly over the past several years of development.

If you really want to see an example of what a company needs to do to rebuild customer trust, look at what EA had to do in response to the Battlefront 2 loot box debacle. They made some terrible missteps, generating absolutely cringeworthy PR, and learned from those mistakes in addressing customer concerns directly and clearly.

I buy season passes for games all the time, it doesn't make me any more important or special than someone who settles for the standard edition. All it guarantees is I'll get whatever was stated in the terms and conditions.

As Red pointed out the LEP description was vague regarding number of updates and the time frame. I imagine that was deliberately vague because they were offering a life time pass and not something that'll be out over the course of 6-12 months.

It's only "vague" if you assume that FD isn't held to a reasonable standard. When Beyond ends in 2018 that will have been over 4 full years of development with only one paid expansion, Horizons, worth $45 USD. That is one paid expansion in 4 years. Are you suggesting that LEP owners should wait a total of 16 years just to break even on their LEP purchase? That is how long it will take at the rate of one paid expansion every 4 years.

 

[Red Anders]

Devari, can you do me a favour when you get a minute and post me links to the relevant legislation from http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ No rush, I won't be reading it before bed in 10 minutes. I mean direct link the relevant sections, not just the Acts; I really don't have time to wade through them and to be honest I spend that much time doing it at work that I also don't have the inclination; at least I get something that bears a passing resemblance to a salary for reading tax legislation.

Incidentally I agree that there is no argument at all against more/better communication.

 

[Devari]

Devari, can you do me a favour when you get a minute and post me links to the relevant legislation from http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ No ruch, I won't be reading it before bed in 10 minutes. I mean direct link the relevant sections, not just the Acts; I really don't have time to wade through them and to be honest I spend that much time doing it at work that I also don't have the inclination; at least I get something that bears a passing resemblance to a salary for reading tax legislation.

Incidentally I agree that there is no argument at all against more/better communication.

You're welcome to look through the specific UK laws yourself, I live in North America however and I have no interest in reading UK laws in detail as they wouldn't apply to me directly. They are, however, generally considerably stronger in terms of customer protection than the equivalent laws in North America and anything you couldn't get away with as a business here you are not going to have an easier time doing so in the UK.

There's also the issue most credit card purchases have a separate set of customer protection rules which, in many cases, are considerably stronger than anything written into specific legislation. I have spoken with many individuals who have successfully requested chargebacks for various purchases made with a credit card which did not meet their expectations (i.e., item didn't arrive, damaged, not as described, etc.) and in the vast majority of those cases those requests have been honored. In fact that is arguably the best reason to make a large purchase with a credit card, if you are not satisfied with a purchase and can demonstrate why then the credit card company literally takes back the money for you by charging it back to the business account you purchased the item from. You don't even need to deal with the business directly, you just dispute the charge with the credit card company who then handles the rest of the process for you.

Really I'm surprised you don't seem to know about your basic rights as a consumer though. I live in Canada and we are not particularly litigious here at all, we almost never actually sue anyone for anything, but we don't let ourselves get taken advantage of either and expect to be treated fairly. The lawsuit nonsense that some people like to refer to is not only totally unnecessary to protect your rights as a consumer, it would actually be a completely unreasonable barrier as the costs of litigation would usually far exceed the value of what you had purchased. If there was some need to "take someone to court" over a refund request then that would unfairly favor unreasonable business practices and would not actually protect consumers at all. Those businesses could simply withhold your money on the basis that you would never actually try to file a lawsuit against them. You would have no recourse other than a class action lawsuit of some sort where the costs of litigation are balanced against a much larger total award for damages. In some cases a class action lawsuit has been brought against video game developers but that is rather rare for it to reach that stage and would be completely unnecessary for an LEP owner who could simply request a refund instead.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Better communication with the player base, setting specific timelines for when the promised content is going to be delivered (i.e., space legs, boarding actions and landing on atmospheric worlds) and acknowledging the impact that their funding model changes have had on LEP owners. In other words, they need to start fixing everything they haven't been doing properly over the past several years of development.

No games company would be daft enough to put definitive times on updates especially when those updates might be years out and will inevitable come up against issues during that dev time that will push those dates to the limit.

Look at Bethesda who revealed they're working on a new space game IP and a new Elder Scrolls game but never revealed times on when they will ship the games.

If you really want to see an example of what a company needs to do to rebuild customer trust, look at what EA had to do in response to the Battlefront 2 loot box debacle. They made some terrible missteps, generating absolutely cringeworthy PR, and learned from those mistakes in addressing customer concerns directly and clearly.

LOL

They lost the trust of the people who bought the game and those people wont be returning. They might have removed the loot boxes but it still takes hours of grinding to get even the most basic of skins for the characters. You get insulted with a daily crate containing 500 credits (the cheapest skin is 5k with the maximum being 40k for someone like Leia or Luke) which is frankly not work logging in for.

What have they done in the last 6 months? Removed loot boxes and replaced with more grind for skins and upgrades. The Solo movie content consisted of one new map and the addition of a game mode from Bf1 and 2 old maps from BF1. They had to remove the last Jedi maps because of bugs and have thus far not added them back.

And what have they got planned for the next 6 months?

One new map
Two new heroes
New skins from the clone wars
Other crap

Is anyone still going to be around to play this content in 6 months time.

New games coming out in the next 6 or so months.....

Spider-man (ps4)
Shadow of the tomb-raider
Forza Horizon 4
Assassins Creed Odyssey
CoD: Black Ops 4
Bf 5
Red dead Redemption 2
Hitman 2
Fallout 76
Just Cause 4
Ace Combat 7
Kingdom Hearts 3
Anthem (new EA IP)
Crackdown 3

...and that's just some of them so yea thousands of people will not be clambering to BF2 for one map and a couple of heroes a year after launch.

So I repeat that EA have done the square root of frack all to rebuild the good will or player retention.

It's only "vague" if you assume that FD isn't held to a reasonable standard. When Beyond ends in 2018 that will have been over 4 full years of development with only one paid expansion, Horizons, worth $45 USD. That is one paid expansion in 4 years. Are you suggesting that LEP owners should wait a total of 16 years just to break even on their LEP purchase? That is how long it will take at the rate of one paid expansion every 4 years.

No they shouldn't wait 16 years because frankly the game wont be here in 16 years and I doubt it'll be here in 10 no matter what Dave apparently said about a 10 year map.

The fact is whether or not you or others are not happy with the pace of development Frontier have done nothing to void their terms and conditions regarding the LEP. The game is still in active development as far as Frontier are concerned and people just need to accept the fact that they'll get the fracking content when its done and not before.

 

[Devari]

No games company would be daft enough to put definitive times on updates especially when those updates might be years out and will inevitable come up against issues during that dev time that will push those dates to the limit.

Look at Bethesda who revealed they're working on a new space game IP and a new Elder Scrolls game but never revealed times on when they will ship the games.

Refusing to put a release date doesn't mean that you can delay the release indefinitely. Eventually you have to either deliver the content or offer a refund.

LOL

They lost the trust of the people who bought the game and those people wont be returning. They might have removed the loot boxes but it still takes hours of grinding to get even the most basic of skins for the characters. You get insulted with a daily crate containing 500 credits (the cheapest skin is 5k with the maximum being 40k for someone like Leia or Luke) which is frankly not work logging in for.

What have they done in the last 6 months? Removed loot boxes and replaced with more grind for skins and upgrades. The Solo movie content consisted of one new map and the addition of a game mode from Bf1 and 2 old maps from BF1. They had to remove the last Jedi maps because of bugs and have thus far not added them back.

And what have they got planned for the next 6 months?

One new map
Two new heroes
New skins from the clone wars
Other crap

Is anyone still going to be around to play this content in 6 months time.

New games coming out in the next 6 or so months.....

Spider-man (ps4)
Shadow of the tomb-raider
Forza Horizon 4
Assassins Creed Odyssey
CoD: Black Ops 4
Bf 5
Red dead Redemption 2
Hitman 2
Fallout 76
Just Cause 4
Ace Combat 7
Kingdom Hearts 3
Anthem (new EA IP)
Crackdown 3

...and that's just some of them so yea thousands of people will not be clambering to BF2 for one map and a couple of heroes a year after launch.

So I repeat that EA have done the square root of frack all to rebuild the good will or player retention.

EA might not get those customers back, but at least they have made some attempt to make amends over the Battlefront 2 lootbox debacle. FD has made no statement whatsoever addressing the LEP issue, and there have been many forum threads created on the issue over the past 6 months since Beyond launched.

No they shouldn't wait 16 years because frankly the game wont be here in 16 years and I doubt it'll be here in 10 no matter what Dave apparently said about a 10 year map.

The fact is whether or not you or others are not happy with the pace of development Frontier have done nothing to void their terms and conditions regarding the LEP. The game is still in active development as far as Frontier are concerned and people just need to accept the fact that they'll get the fracking content when its done and not before.

The problem here is that many LEP owners are wondering if they will even see that content at all. If they don't see it, then what exactly will FD do about their LEP? If FD thinks they're just keeping the money then there are many LEP owners who are going to have an issue with that. A rather legitimate one, I might add, and if FD tries to ignore it or dismiss it I expect the PR fallout will be quite massive. Everyone seems to love a good scandal or controversy, look at how much media coverage the Battlefront 2 lootbox issue got. FD should get on top of this issue now, before it reaches a point where they can't properly fix it and contain the damage to their reputation. FD is in the process of rapidly expanding their product base and should very much care how they are treating their customers, especially ones who have spent $180 USD on an expansion pass.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Refusing to put a release date doesn't mean that you can delay the release indefinitely. Eventually you have to either deliver the content or offer a refund.

Frontier have delivered and continue to deliver content for the game. The fact that some are not happy with that pace is no reason to say that Frontier have lied or are conning them like some have suggested.

EA might not get those customers back, but at least they have made some attempt to make amends over the Battlefront 2 lootbox debacle.

What attempt? Oh removing loot boxes big clap for them. What has been the end result of them having to cave? 2 new maps in a year and a couple of heroes with little else to show for it simply because they know they aint getting any new micro-transaction cash.

Oh and to top it off they've canned one star wars game already and are vague about when the other one will appear (see not just Bethesda do it).

Edit: I wonder how Disney feel about EA tanking their Star Wars IP. Mind you with the last two Star Wars movies they dont have much of a leg to stand on in regards to that

FD has made no statement whatsoever addressing the LEP issue, and there have been many forum threads created on the issue over the past 6 months since Beyond launched.

First off there is no issue other than some who cant manage their own expectations. Also Frontier community staff have said a number of times that LEP content will be coming this year and will be free to them.

The problem here is that many LEP owners are wondering if they will even see that content at all. If they don't see it, then what exactly will FD do about their LEP? If FD thinks they're just keeping the money then there are many LEP owners who are going to have an issue with that. A rather legitimate one, I might add, and if FD tries to ignore it or dismiss it I expect the PR fallout will be quite massive. Everyone seems to love a good scandal or controversy, look at how much media coverage the Battlefront 2 lootbox issue got. FD should get on top of this issue now, before it reaches a point where they can't properly fix it and contain the damage to their reputation.

Again no issue other than expectation management on players parts and Frontier is limited on what they can do there other than suggest some mental health professionals.

 

[Roybe]

Refusing to put a release date doesn't mean that you can delay the release indefinitely. Eventually you have to either deliver the content or offer a refund.
<snip>

LEP people paid for all updates until the game closes...that was two years or so ago...honestly, who cares what happens to them.

If Frontier closed the game tonight...the LEP people have no recourse...they recieved all the content up until tonight and paid for none of it...and that is all the content that would be produced.

Honestly, just sit down and wait. There is more paid content coming out and LEP people will not pay for it. There is no time it has to be delivered..there is no amount that has to be delivered. Caveat emptor for the next time someone offers you a pig in a poke!

 

[Devari]

Frontier have delivered and continue to deliver content for the game. The fact that some are not happy with that pace is no reason to say that Frontier have lied or are conning them like some have suggested.

They have not delivered an adequate amount of paid content for the game, which is what the LEP provides to someone who purchased it. That is the issue here.

What attempt? Oh removing loot boxes big clap for them. What has been the end result of them having to cave? 2 new maps in a year and a couple of heroes with little else to show for it simply because they know they aint getting any new micro-transaction cash.

Oh and to top it off they've canned one star wars game already and are vague about when the other one will appear (see not just Bethesda do it).

I'm not really defending EA here, they created their own problems and deserve the consequences of treating their customers badly, but they also knew when they had to change course and admit that there was a problem. They eventually did own their problems and mistakes and FD has yet to even take this step with the LEP situation.

First off there is no issue other than some who cant manage their own expectations. Also Frontier community staff have said a number of times that LEP content will be coming this year and will be free to them.

That still doesn't fix the issue of the value of the LEP. Even if they spend all of 2019 delivering paid content on par with Horizons (which is unlikely since Horizons was delayed over 2 years) then that is still only 2 expansions in 5 years. That rate means the LEP needs to see another 5 years of development with another 2 full expansions just to break even, and you already admitted that you don't see the game being actively developed for 10 years.

Again no issue other than expectation management on players parts and Frontier is limited on what they can do there other than suggest some mental health professionals.

Sorry but "upset customer" isn't a mental health diagnosis where you can send someone for therapy to make them into a "happy customer". If that were the case I would just start an "unhappy customer clinic" and make an absolute fortune because I would be booked up immediately and my waiting list would be filled for the next ten years. It would be extremely lucrative because there are so many unhappy customers out there. Also, keep in mind that counselling is expensive, around $150-200/hr for a trained psychiatrist or psychologist, so that's not exactly a cheap solution. It would cost far more to send an unhappy customer for "customer therapy" than it would be to simply give them a refund, which puts you in the same situation that you would have with the costs of litigation exceeding the value of the product you purchased.

 

[Devari]

LEP people paid for all updates until the game closes...that was two years or so ago...honestly, who cares what happens to them.

So your answer to this situation is a complete lack of empathy for LEP owners who supported the game by purchasing an LEP?

That's a great business model. I wonder how many customers will continue spending money on Elite if FD uses your approach.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

So far I've paid around $275 USD for Elite, which includes $105 USD for the Elite base game and around $170 for various cosmetic items such as paint packs and weapon colors. That doesn't actually get me anything to actually use for gameplay other than the game itself and the starting Sidewinder however. Everything else in the game I've had to obtain during over 2400 hours of gameplay so far. That is a substantial investment of both time and money into Elite.

If you want to make a comparison to Star Citizen, the base game and ship purchases in SC are actually significantly better value than what FD is selling for Elite in terms of the game expansions and cosmetics. The base game for SC plus S42 cost me $60 USD which is $45 less than the $105 I paid for Elite plus Horizons. The various ships in SC cam course be far more expensive than anything of the cosmetics that can be purchased in Elite, but if you look at how much many players have spent in total that is more than enough to purchase a mid-sized ship in SC. If you look at a typical medium-sized ship like the Constellation Andromeda that costs $225 and provides an actual ship to fly in the game. That would put a total cost of $285 for the combination of SC, S42 and a Constellation Andromeda as a medium-sized multicrew ship. Compare that to $275 for I've paid for Elite, Horizons and various cosmetic items. So far SC is looking like a much better value in terms of what you get for your money, especially considering that I can walk around the Constellation and interact with a fully-functional ship interior while we don't even have a basic version of space legs in Elite at this point.

If you add in the time it took me to earn ships in Elite the amount I've "invested" into the game becomes substantially higher. The typical dollar value for in-game grind for most games is usually between $1-3 per hour. If you use the lowest possible value for what I've earned in Elite over 2400 hours at only $1/hr that is equivalent to at least $2400 of grind "value" that I've put into Elite so far. In that sense I've gotten very low "value" out of Elite in terms of the quality of gameplay for the time and money I've put into Elite so far.

Except SC is 4 years overdue and has no clear release date. At least ED is a well established game.

 

[LeoBartlet]

They have not delivered an adequate amount of paid content for the game, which is what the LEP provides to someone who purchased it. That is the issue here.

100% subjective.

I'm not really defending EA here, they created their own problems and deserve the consequences of treating their customers badly, but they also knew when they had to change course and admit that there was a problem. They eventually did own their problems and mistakes and FD has yet to even take this step with the LEP situation.

No situation other than that created in some peoples heads.

That still doesn't fix the issue of the value of the LEP. Even if they spend all of 2019 delivering paid content on par with Horizons (which is unlikely since Horizons was delayed over 2 years) then that is still only 2 expansions in 5 years. That rate means the LEP needs to see another 5 years of development with another 2 full expansions just to break even, and you already admitted that you don't see the game being actively developed for 10 years.

Again subjective and can you provide the link to the LEP terms and conditions where they stipulated the number of free expansions and the time frame.

 

[Devari]

Except SC is 4 years overdue and has no clear release date. At least ED is a well established game.

The mods have requested that we discontinue discussion of SC in this thread so that discussion is unfortunately off-topic.

 

[Roybe]

So your answer to this situation is a complete lack of empathy for LEP owners who supported the game by purchasing an LEP?

That's a great business model. I wonder how many customers will continue spending money on Elite if FD uses your approach.

Yep! Business is business. This might also be an American way of looking at things...I have no sympathy for customers that read a contract and buy into it without understanding the downside of the contract. LEP people planned on saving lots of money...but they never considered it could take 4 or 5 years after purchase? That's their fault.

All these people spent their money blindly on a pig in a poke. You will never know what the real value of the LEP is until they close down the game. Only then can you say it was worth it or not (really what these people are hoping for is to save enough to cover the cost of the LEP...or more..so they reap a profit) The devs could put out $300 worth of content in 2019...all free to the LEP....all these people can do is sit down and wait for the content.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Except SC is 4 years overdue and has no clear release date. At least ED is a well established game.

They did state various times that the game would be out at a specific time but they failed every time.

 

[Devari]

100% subjective.

Incorrect. Do the math yourself here. Horizons was a $45 expansion, the LEP was $180. That means we need at least 4X standalone expansions equivalent to Horizons in order for the LEP to simply break even. That is not subjective at all, it is basic math.

No situation other than that created in some peoples heads.

Mathematics is an objective field where anyone can get the same answer using the same methods.

Again subjective and can you provide the link to the LEP terms and conditions where they stipulated the number of free expansions and the time frame.

Obsidian Ant already posted this earlier in the thread. They described the content (space legs, boarding actions and landings on inhabited worlds) and described that there would be regular updates. "Regular" does not mean only one expansion being delivered in 4 years.

Yep! Business is business.

All these people spent their money blindly on a pig in a poke. You will never know what the real value of the LEP is until they close down the game. Only then can you say it was worth it or not. They could put out $300 worth of content in 2019...all free to the LEP....all these people can do is sit down and wait for the content.

We can do basic math though, can't we? LEP owners have gotten $45 of value out of a $180 purchase so far and the soonest we will see more paid content is the end of 2018. That means they will have only seen 1/4 of their LEP value during the first 4 years of development. Do you expect those LEP owners to wait a total of 10-16 years to break even? I doubt Elite will even be actively developed another 3-4 years from now.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I've played many other games that offer far more engaging gameplay than Elite.

Well, then play those games.