PvP PvP Meta of the Month Club

[Frenotx]

Any that include powerplay modules maybe?

I'm not a fan of the term 'grind', and if someone wants that optimal loadout they should be prepared to put the effort in (and be rewarded if they do) but the gate for that first prismatic shield generator is something like a month of real time (not in-game time) isn't it? Seems to me there is an assumption that other players will cynically join the various powers to get the goodies. The time required for Engineering means little compared to that.

Besides the stupid 1-month time gate (during which you don't even have to boot up the game), the amount of time it takes to get those modules is limited. 750 merits can be acquired in an evening, or a few short sessions over the course of a week.

On a related note, I really dislike the powerplay module acquisition mechanic. The wait time feels extremely arbitrary and out of place with the rest of the game, powerplay is disrupted by people just looking to grab the modules. I'd much prefer if the modules were acquired via the tech broker, such that the only people engaging with powerplay were the people actually interested in doing powerplay. The tech broker allows people to work for the special modules, and earn them at a rate commensurate with their input effort (instead of some arbitrary wait that players have no agency over).

Maybe you guys should start a private PvP and PvE (private open) mode where applicants must agree to a Strict Code of Conduct? You could even outlaw engineering and fancy ammo. You may actually be able to do something about clogging? Then you would be playing with only honorable killers and bona fide pirates.

Unfortunately it can be very difficulty to tell if another CMDR is using engineering or premium ammo, so enforcing those rules beyond the obvious things like experimental effects would be challenging.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Which of my ships are these "über grind builds" that you accuse me of chasing?

I wasn't accusing you of chasing anything. Based on your post history in general and as a response to this comment specifically...:

...You do realize that the mega-shields that people complain about require engineering, and thus are unavailable to these aforementioned unengineered casual players? Meanwhile, the engineered players DO have access to these mega-shields, giving them yet another advantage over the aforementioned casual players. The absurd strength of engineered shields is one of the things driving a wedge between new / casual players and ones who have invested more time, not something that's giving some amount of parity.

...I had the impression that you were invested in the different aspects of Engineers. My apologies.

For me, adding grind layers does not increase the value of PvP. Quite the opposite actually. The more convoluted and grindy a game play mechanic becomes, the more excluding it becomes, limiting player participation.

In my humble opinion, shields are the lowest common denominator for engaging in "meaningful" PvP.

 

[The Replicated Man]

Any that include powerplay modules maybe?

I'm not a fan of the term 'grind', and if someone wants that optimal loadout they should be prepared to put the effort in (and be rewarded if they do) but the gate for that first prismatic shield generator is something like a month of real time (not in-game time) isn't it? Seems to me there is an assumption that other players will cynically join the various powers to get the goodies. The time required for Engineering means little compared to that.

Do you realize how easy it is to unlock the powerplay modules? Not everyone uses them either. In some instances the regular weapons are better

 

[Riverside]

Do you realize how easy it is to unlock the powerplay modules? Not everyone uses them either. In some instances the regular weapons are better

I've only used them in betas (when they have been available at founders), I've never pledged. I understand the weapons are generally sidegrades (which is good) but I do see plenty of builds that use prismatics.

As far as how easy it is to unlock them is concerned I've obviously never gone through that process myself, but I am aware of the time part as I mentioned. What you describe as 'easy' I described as 'cynical' and I tend to not play that way.

While I wouldn't expect others to play to my rules, my point is that there is arguably an expectation or need to go through that process if one or more of those PP modules is part of the meta.

But again as I mentioned, if you want the best you have to be prepared to put the effort in to obtain it. Someone mentioned on another thread that they'd like to see the PP modules (or equivalents) obtainable via another (non-PP) way, I'd be in favour of that.

 

[The Replicated Man]

I've only used them in betas (when they have been available at founders), I've never pledged. I understand the weapons are generally sidegrades (which is good) but I do see plenty of builds that use prismatics.

As far as how easy it is to unlock them is concerned I've obviously never gone through that process myself, but I am aware of the time part as I mentioned. What you describe as 'easy' I described as 'cynical' and I tend to not play that way.

While I wouldn't expect others to play to my rules, my point is that there is arguably an expectation or need to go through that process if one or more of those PP modules is part of the meta.

But again as I mentioned, if you want the best you have to be prepared to put the effort in to obtain it. Someone mentioned on another thread that they'd like to see the PP modules (or equivalents) obtainable via another (non-PP) way, I'd be in favour of that.

Through a tech broker would be handy that is for sure

 

[Frag]

Maybe instead of complaining about the current state of the game, you should try and adapt to it? The game doesn't conform to you, you conform to the game.

With the current 3.0 engineering system, you can have a pvp capable ship fully engineered, in a few days. Probably 40 hours work would suffice. And the reward is worth it.

40 hOURS? a couple of days? FML, we're not all 15 living in mums basement - 40 hours is essentially a month of play time for me (5x2hrs per week). I agree with the poster, Engineers have made PvP less accessible. Personally even though I'm a big advocate I am staying away until I feel like I can put up a fight. I've returned after 2 years off and been scrambling like mad to get stuff engineered.. 2+ weeks and I have made some progress but long way away - hopefully I get the corvette finished this weekend and then do the FDL/FAS.

Before it was as simple as heading Jameson Memorial, switching builds up and going again. Now its a pita if you haven't got different things engineered and ready. On top of that, the engineering layer adds needless bottleneck to playing with builds as well. Don't get me wrong, I am actually enjoying the engineers now that FDev came to their senses and allowed for trading of materials and got rid of the stupid RnG on the rolls. So for now I'm PvE'ing and when she's all grade 5 where she needs to be I'll throw her into PvP... Otherwise I'll just stick to CQC.

And yes we can state facts, its not a complaint its an observation of fact.

 

[Globusdiablo]

4 fixed, zoom and boom.

 

[Ozram]

​

4 fixed, zoom and boom.

That pic shows gimballed weapon’s. Just sayin. And there are five of them. This is fixed:

 

[Globusdiablo]

That pic shows gimballed weapons...

Indeed. But it was a nice pic. So is yours.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Did I get this right? All I need to do to win against a hybrid tank is bring his shields down once and get a lock?
If this is true this strikes me as very poor balance, like a rock-paper-scissor where you have 20 symbols, but one of them wins against half the others.

Last week I had a duel against a hybrid build CMDR that vastly outclassed me, skill-wise; I brought his shields down 4-5 times before losing. I would have felt like cheating if I could had won by spamming packhounds.

Thats why a Bi-weave FAS is less efficient than a straight up hull tank IMO, Silent running is far more effective a counter to missiles than even the specifically designed countermeasures, aside from when your opponent has emmisive weapons (though thankfully that no longer seems to have a retardedly long timer on it, so SR builds are a little less borked of late). Also it allows for 4 pips to engines 90% of the fight meaning easier strikes with the TLB and easier evasion should it be nessasary.

Though TBH I still think the SR Viper 3 is a pretty efficient meta for most occasions, with the right loadout you can even hang with the big bois for quite some time, you might not always get a kill (low ammo count/they wake/get bored). But you can sure as heck survive 90% of engagments and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Like how I use packhounds and fly a Cutter: My enjoyment comes from pitting my enemy against unwinnable odds. You can say what you want about gimbals, packhounds, 7,000MJ shields and reverse FA-off, you use whatever strategy that wins you the fight. Only things I agree that are bad are healing beams and reverb torps, to a degree.

So basically something that breaks your "unwinnable" scenario?

 

[Truesilver]

I agree with this. People can moan and whine about people using shield tanks, packhounds or whatever, saying it isn't skillful, but at the end of the day there are consequences to dying that some people just can't afford to have put upon them, even if they have enough. Most people don't do PvP for sport and use broken weapons just to survive against those who do.
Like how I use packhounds and fly a Cutter: My enjoyment comes from pitting my enemy against unwinnable odds. You can say what you want about gimbals, packhounds, 7,000MJ shields and reverse FA-off, you use whatever strategy that wins you the fight. Only things I agree that are bad are healing beams and reverb torps, to a degree.

So basically something that breaks your "unwinnable" scenario?

Lol, I thought exactly the same as you Mr Turnip, from Cmdr Avelore Rayne's post, but sometimes when you meet a guy in game he doesn't match the post ... or I guess at least that Avvie in an FdL flies quite different to Avvie in a Cutter ... you see ...

... a few weeks ago I was Powerplay slaughtering Imps in ALD HQ. A dead Cutter apparently put the shout out on ALD Discord and Avvie responded, coming on to hunt down the intruder in his full 5 x efficient PA FdL, him full FA-off, 0-4-2. After mutual shield drop my Pacifier Python had to bail ... managing to dock after a short chase. But Avvie was cool enough to agree to an FdL 1v1, then even more cool enough to put up a self-effacing vid on his channel (notwithstanding that he's one of the best shots I've fought for a long time) the next day. A couple of wince-worthy moments for me when I stall right in his sights, too.

[video=youtube_share;b5NhfUkV-9E]https://youtu.be/b5NhfUkV-9E[/video]

 

[znôrt]

Maybe you guys should start a private PvP and PvE (private open) mode where applicants must agree to a Strict Code of Conduct? You could even outlaw engineering and fancy ammo. You may actually be able to do something about clogging? Then you would be playing with only honorable killers and bona fide pirates.

this is virtually impossible to enforce, it would only work in tiny friend groups. (if you think honor code would work then you missed aprox 30% of posts in this thread)

i once suggested an 'elite classic mode', in short: open with engineering and synthesis ruled out. iirc about 2 or 3 people thought it was a good idea. well, glad i'm not alone.

as a consequence pvp in elite dangerous is in the freezer for me for the time being. excellent criticism in this thread but how this can still be considered a valid pvp setting is beyond me. people's tenacity is sometimes admirable. i hope this can change some day, but really don't count on it.

this thread though is pretty interesting, keep it going y'all!

 

[Morbad]

how this can still be considered a valid pvp setting is beyond me

Inequitable or imbalanced doesn't imply invalid.

My take on PvP is more...survival horror...than, say deathmatch.

 

[znôrt]

Though TBH I still think the SR Viper 3 is a pretty efficient meta for most occasions, with the right loadout you can even hang with the big bois for quite some time, you might not always get a kill (low ammo count/they wake/get bored). But you can sure as heck survive 90% of engagments and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

i've thought of that. i guess i could even get over the apalling boredom of engineering a viper (have already all engineers unlocked, quite some materials stacked and a lot of legacy modules still laying around, should be doable) and it wouldn't hurt my disdain for engineers (or even make a point) while still allowing some fun. i would go with 2 heatsinks, 2 medium pa (efficient phasing) and ... maybe 2 small rails or fixed cannons. i assume firing anything makes you targetable anyway so why not pack a punch. any kind suggestion?

 

[znôrt]

Inequitable or imbalanced doesn't imply invalid.

fair, but it does for me considering the grind. i've been there, not going back, i feel too silly.

 

[Morbad]

fair, but it does for me considering the grind. i've been there, not going back, i feel too silly.

Fair enough, though 3.0 really did knock the grind down to significantly less obscene levels. I can now build a ship in a weekend that would have taken a year in the old system.

Regardless, shouldn't be hard to find some people that share your preferences, or something close enough, in order to get a few matches going.

 

[Ethaidan]

i've thought of that. i guess i could even get over the apalling boredom of engineering a viper (have already all engineers unlocked, quite some materials stacked and a lot of legacy modules still laying around, should be doable) and it wouldn't hurt my disdain for engineers (or even make a point) while still allowing some fun. i would go with 2 heatsinks, 2 medium pa (efficient phasing) and ... maybe 2 small rails or fixed cannons. i assume firing anything makes you targetable anyway so why not pack a punch. any kind suggestion?

Do it! That's exactly what I did with my legacy Cobra and it's loads of fun.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

i've thought of that. i guess i could even get over the apalling boredom of engineering a viper (have already all engineers unlocked, quite some materials stacked and a lot of legacy modules still laying around, should be doable) and it wouldn't hurt my disdain for engineers (or even make a point) while still allowing some fun. i would go with 2 heatsinks, 2 medium pa (efficient phasing) and ... maybe 2 small rails or fixed cannons. i assume firing anything makes you targetable anyway so why not pack a punch. any kind suggestion?

Yeah its a grind :/ Hmm I went with chaff and a cannon/plasma combo on the C2's so's not to get too hot, plasma with TLB. On the C1's alternate between C1 seekers or Short Range rails, x1 Feedback Cas', x1 Super Pen' she's a mean little beast.

https://s.orbis.zone/sCREusej < Thats what it's set up too now, a little on the fat side with the mass curves but not so much it makes a huge jolt of difference.

EDIT: This is the MKIV with a similar loadout in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxajXD3uI0o&t=312s

 

[znôrt]

Hmm I went with chaff and a cannon/plasma combo on the C2's so's not to get too hot, plasma with TLB. On the C1's alternate between C1 seekers or Short Range rails, x1 Feedback Cas', x1 Super Pen' she's a mean little beast.

https://s.orbis.zone/sCREusej < Thats what it's set up too now, a little on the fat side with the mass curves but not so much it makes a huge jolt of difference.

thanks!
i was aiming at something less tanky and punchy but faster, like https://s.orbis.zone/h37HnPUh. it's probably not going to work all too well but i'll see from there. and yes, i should put one tlb in there too, no doubt.

EDIT: This is the MKIV with a similar loadout in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxajXD3uI0o&t=312s

that's some fine flying and scary aim :O