Modes Reimagining Open Mode

[CMDR M. Lehman]

...and it is the best way to troll griefers and trolls.

As others have pointed out, combat logging via task killing or pulling the plug is cheating- no exceptions. PvP- no matter what you call it- is never cheating. To advocate the use of exploits and cheats is disgraceful, and to declare that PvP (and open) itself is an exploit indicative of a terribly skewed perception of such. I'm very sorry that Elite is Elite and not Oolite (since that seems to be the game you wish it was)- but we play the game we have and make the best of it, not the one that exists in our imaginations against which it's measured.

And why play in open if you hate it so much? Solo is there for those who prefer, well... a solitary experience.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

...and it is the best way to troll griefers and trolls.

If that's true, according to you, you put yourself on the same level as those you detest.

Playing in a different mode saves you that bother, seems like the better solution to me.

 

[Mouse]

It's also defined by the devs as an exploit.

Are you condoning an exploit here?

I would yes, under certain circumstances.

I've stated that I would combat log, BUT... and there is a big one. Only if, as has happened before, a griefer thinks it is funny to lie their way into a PVE group for the express purpose of pvping those playing inside. Their actions have already demonstrated they care less for the 'rules" so why should I allow them any satisfaction or enjoyment? I've seen many people condone this action and claim it is "legal game play", yet it got so bad Fdev had to give admins permissions to account block such players... and sadly enough, though not as often or as in heavy as numbers as before, it still happens.

So I find it interesting that people latch onto Fdev disapproving of Combat logging and wave it as a banner of behavior we should not allow. Because I feel it is only part of it and their disapproval of people circumventing pg's and other's playstyles should be loudly banner waved as well.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I would yes, under certain circumstances.

I've stated that I would combat log, BUT... and there is a big one. Only if, as has happened before, a griefer thinks it is funny to lie their way into a PVE group for the express purpose of pvping those playing inside. Their actions have already demonstrated they care less for the 'rules" so why should I allow them any satisfaction or enjoyment?

2 wrongs don't make a right.

If these CMDRs chose to be lying pillocks, that on them. If their actions cause you to cheat, that's still on you. Just think, if by their dishonest behaviour they are making you cheat, they still have control over you. Which is exactly what this is all about. They are butthurt they cannot control those in Mobius, let them be butthurt. Let them whine about Mobius every chance they get. If you think about it, it's a beautiful thing to behold.

 

[Mouse]

2 wrongs don't make a right.

If these CMDRs chose to be lying pillocks, that on them. If their actions cause you to cheat, that's still on you. Just think, if by their dishonest behaviour they are making you cheat, they still have control over you. Which is exactly what this is all about. They are butthurt they cannot control those in Mobius, let them be butthurt. Let them whine about Mobius every chance they get. If you think about it, it's a beautiful thing to behold.

I understand where you are coming from Ziggy, but the sad thing is those types do not give a hoot WHY people don't PVP. All they care about is forcing them to for their own amusement. And Two wrongs do make a right when it is counter the first wrong with the 2nd or possibly end up in the hospital again or sadly worse. PG is the best that I personally can come to playing in Open, because I cannot take the chance of killing someone in the game or even being killed by a player. NPCs cause no reaction either way, players do.


Yet again these scenarios never enter into the trolls minds... all they care about is screwing other players over for their own enjoyment... not even if that enjoyment could lead to death. So I refuse to look at C-logging due to violations in a PG as a wrong.

 

[Sylveria]

2 wrongs don't make a right.

No, but... 3 rights make a left.

 

[khaos526]

The thing is this game has everything for everyone. Open for those that like to play hard core with other people. Private for those that want to just associate with friends or PvE things like Mobius. And Solo for those like me who have no desire to see or talk to a single real person in the game. There isn't a need for any more...

 

[JohannStrauss]

indicative of a terribly skewed perception of such

With all due respect - and I mean it since I understand you take this game very seriously - the skewed perception is in your vision.

Although I hate to repeat myself: a game mode that directly supports trolling and griefing by openly reducing fairness to a minimum and a game mode that was never fixed, which could be done easily by the way, is flawed and this is done by purpose only to support those who troll. Thus the Open mode as it is by now is an exploit for the trolls in my eyes.

And yes: I put myself on the same level as the people I detest, because I know very well HOW MUCH the trolls hate the combat logging as you can see in this very thread.
Isn't it great to know how much they rage every time you disappear while they are recording their trolling for youtube?

I do it for the hate, rage and frustration of the trolls.

PS: combat logging and troll-logging was, by the way, also never fixed by Frontier which could be done with 3 lines of code.
1) Critical game situation? Yes - exit the player, leave the ship as an empty "ghost imprint" ship in the game for as long as it takes to destroy it or 2) Exit the ghost ship after 5 minutes.

Done.

Yet Frontier never fixed the logging problem.

You can guess why.

PPS: rename "OPEN MODE" to "Anarchy galaxy wide" and everything would be fine! We would all be on the same page. Kill all the laughable, ineffective tiny Crime and Punishment since it is already entirely useless anyway and we would all be on the same page.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

If that's true, according to you, you put yourself on the same level as those you detest.

Playing in a different mode saves you that bother, seems like the better solution to me.

It is actually not the same because his action is looked upon differently, namely worse, by the devs.

 

[JohannStrauss]

It is actually not the same because his action is looked upon differently, namely worse, by the devs.

By the way: it MIGHT be that I never actually combat log, ever thought about this?

Also, my young friend, what the "devs" think is on another page entirely. It depends which criteria, which "dev" and on which level you talk with "the devs".

It is actually not the same because his action is looked upon differently, namely worse, by the devs.

I guess you REALLY hate combat logging! Good to know!

 

[JohannStrauss]

To the point

Let me add something constructive to the thread according to the title.

We all could see that the OPEN players hate combat logging to the death.
Isn't it interesting to see?

Yet trolling trolls would not be necessary IF the OPEN game would be modified in that way that we had actual "high sec" systems where trolling is impossible due to absolutely effective Police forces and such harsh Punishment, f.e. life long player based bans from systems or even sectors, that trolling would be such a high risk that there would be only a minimum.

This would be a true realistic Crime and punishment.

As we can see in the thread - of course - the Open Game players do NOT want this. We read it over and over again.
We all know why know: it would make trolling and griefing and troll-video producing of law-abiding players impossible in High-sec systems.

Now IF we had real high security systems the peaceful law-abiding players COULD live securely in Open Game, hop a long on their high-sec lanes and be happy ever after.

Of course this is ALSO not wanted by the notoriously OPEN game players since only high-combative or in large groups playing players would visit mid to no sec systems and they could no longer troll or grief noobs and low-skill combat players. Open game would lose the entire PURPOSE to them.

Because TROLLING would become impossible.

Because they NEED the unprepared, lowskill players from PvE.

Open Game players HATE it when the Open game is only packed with highskill-combat players. There are post in this forum actually stating this (check out the thread: "come to Open Mode, we have cookies".)

They do not want the feature of "hiring up to n-numbers of NPC escort ships" since this would also make trolling impossible.

They do not want effective punishments (the way I explained to you in detail).

They detaste the peaceful Möbius-group they can't infiltrate.

They hate combat logging.

You are asking how to fix or re-imagine OPEN game?

My answer and the only way to solve this: ban all gang-attackers, trolls and griefers from this game.

Since every other constructive input is refused by them anyway.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I guess you REALLY hate combat logging! Good to know!

I don't care if you combat log at all.
I just think your position is immature.

You don't actually like the game, so you want to be unpleasant to people who are playing according to the rules.
You will go to the length of actually playing a game you don't like, and doing something the designers call an exploit, in order to be unpleasant to people you have no requirement to interact with in the first place.

That's just really strange to me.
Whatever floats your boat...

 

[JohannStrauss]

I don't care if you combat log at all.

Whatever floats your boat...

Even better!

 

[Marra Morgan]

With all due respect - and I mean it since I understand you take this game very seriously - the skewed perception is in your vision.

Although I hate to repeat myself: a game mode that directly supports trolling and griefing by openly reducing fairness to a minimum and a game mode that was never fixed, which could be done easily by the way, is flawed and this is done by purpose only to support those who troll. Thus the Open mode as it is by now is an exploit for the trolls in my eyes.

Let me get this right... Open mode is an exploit? That's what you're saying? Do you think this will add credibility for anything that you say next?

And yes: I put myself on the same level as the people I detest, because I know very well HOW MUCH the trolls hate the combat logging as you can see in this very thread.

This is a case of simple mathematics. Wrong + Wrong = 2 Wrongs. It does not equal Right.

Isn't it great to know how much they rage every time you disappear while they are recording their trolling for youtube?

I do it for the hate, rage and frustration of the trolls.

So you are also a troll?

PS: combat logging and troll-logging was, by the way, also never fixed by Frontier which could be done with 3 lines of code.
1) Critical game situation? Yes - exit the player, leave the ship as an empty "ghost imprint" ship in the game for as long as it takes to destroy it or 2) Exit the ghost ship after 5 minutes.

Done.

Quick, PM Sandro with this immediately. I bet he'll be overjoyed that he has your ingenuity to call upon, for free too!

PPS: rename "OPEN MODE" to "Anarchy galaxy wide" and everything would be fine! We would all be on the same page. Kill all the laughable, ineffective tiny Crime and Punishment since it is already entirely useless anyway and we would all be on the same page.

You seem quite muddled up about what you want from C&P. Earlier in this thread, Sleutelbos described the C&P system as it currently exists:

If a notorious 'griefer' kills your little PvE ships the following will happen:

1) The victim's rebuy is drastically reduced.
2) The bounty on the attacker is drastically increased (if my corvette butchers your T9, I'll easily get 5 million per kill added to my bounty!)
3) Docking rights are revoked, and if the player keeps it eventually the majority of the bubble will be locked.
4) Insane OP uber-ships will haunt the attacker.
5) All the above wont stop until the attacker either pays his bounty (the total sum of all full insurance fees he caused, even those not payed by the victims due to the price reduction!) or his forced to pay it at a detention center.

There are already very serious penalties and costs to killing people in Open, far more than the victim faces.

This. But I do feel many people in Solo/PG dont appreciate the changes to C&P.

And here's you, saying that it was the best post in the thread and that you subscribe to all of it:

The best post in this thread. Al you say is true and I can subscribe to all of that.

As I suggested earlier in this thread, try some outlaw gameplay for a bit to broaden your understanding of the mechanics and how the game works. It might even lead to your ideas being better informed and more credible.

 

[JohannStrauss]

Dear Cari, I wish you could add something CONSTRUCTIVE to the points. You never do.
Ever noticed that?

And once again for the "sleutelbos" comments I made: sadly it does not work. It is not enough by a long and short run.
I explained it many times in this thread.

For example: There are no "Insane OP uber-ships will haunt the attacker".

And: "All the above wont stop until the attacker either pays his bounty " which makes everything entirely useless.

You say: "You seem quite muddled up about what you want from C&P."

I do not do that.
As for now we do not have any sufficient Crime and Punishment. I know that you know that. I also know you do not WANT To have a sufficient Crime and Punishment system and I start to understand why.

So my suggestion is: just be honest, der developers, and rename the Open game how it actually works: as a galaxy wide anarchy barely covered up by little patches of law to disguise its true nature as troll-paradise.

PS: instead of repeating all I said here you COULD state your own opinion now.

Also: "Quick, PM Sandro with this immediately. I bet he'll be overjoyed that he has your ingenuity to call upon, for free too!"

The developers know all of this very well and they won't change it.
And you know very well why they will not stop combat-logging.

 

[ethelred]

And once again for the "sleutelbos" comments I made: sadly it does not work. It is not enough by a long and short run.
I explained it many times in this thread.

For example: There are no "Insane OP uber-ships will haunt the attacker".

And: "All the above wont stop until the attacker either pays his bounty " which makes everything entirely useless.

Just for clarity - is your experience with the C&P direct - e.g. have you played as a psychopath killer?

From your other posts it seems that you have zero tolerance for CMDR killing in supposed high-sec systems is the issue. Is it fair to say then that only an extremely punitive C&P system (essentially direct to a sidewinder and lose all cash, ships etc or something along those lines) is something you would be happier with?

You state you do play in Open - how then do you reconcile the fact that at the moment the C&P system is lacking in your opinion, with playing in Open? Do you play a "solo" version of Open (e.g. Open in either low traffic spots or mode switching if you see other CMDRs)

Thanks in advance,

 

[JohannStrauss]

Just for clarity - is your experience with the C&P direct - e.g. have you played as a psychopath killer?

From your other posts it seems that you have zero tolerance for CMDR killing in supposed high-sec systems is the issue. Is it fair to say then that only an extremely punitive C&P system (essentially direct to a sidewinder and lose all cash, ships etc or something along those lines) is something you would be happier with?

You state you do play in Open - how then do you reconcile the fact that at the moment the C&P system is lacking in your opinion, with playing in Open? Do you play a "solo" version of Open (e.g. Open in either low traffic spots or mode switching if you see other CMDRs)

Thanks in advance,

Good questions. Yes, you are correct in most parts. I am only mad about the trolling in high-sec or repeated trolling in mid-sec systems and during Community goals. I do not wish that a pirate/professional criminal loses all of his possessions.
In addition there are major differences in the motives and playing strategies between professional trolls and professional pirates.

For a pirate it does not make sense to gang-kill players close to a station in a high-sec system during Community Goals.
It does make sense for a pirate to lurk in anarchy systems perfect for cross-jumps to intercept miners or to lurk in mining areas pristine-metallic.

I do not want to ruin the game for trolls either. But a more realistic setting in the Open game would certainly mean that rich system would PERFECTLY protect their customers. And they would certainly ban certain notoriously known people from their systems for ever.

Please, I am sorry, but I am a bit tired of this thread.

Let me add: how about PLAYERS could add to the bounty put on the head of certain criminal players? You get my point?
It would make life pretty much hell for trolls and gang-trolls. But such is life...

PS: I play open in imperial areas where I trade and mostly shoot down enemies in war zones. I also did my exploration around the entire galaxy (500,000 LY) during 5 months. I loved that part the most.

EDIT: how about the troll or even the captured pirate has to pay TO his victim a nice sum after he paid his fine?

PPS: I love pirates. There is nothing wrong with a player tying to get your 728 tons of slaves while you jump through anarchy or low-sec systems. This is reality. This is good. This is how it should be.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Dear Cari, I wish you could add something CONSTRUCTIVE to the points. You never do.
Ever noticed that?

I would love to add something constructive, but you don't offer any points for me to construct upon. You appear to be simply ranting about Open, calling its players trolls and fantasising about some Solo-only game.

And once again for the "sleutelbos" comments I made: sadly it does not work. It is not enough by a long and short run.
I explained it many times in this thread.

For example: There are no "Insane OP uber-ships will haunt the attacker".

You've never dealt with ATR?

You say: "You seem quite muddled up about what you want from C&P."

I do not do that.
As for now we do not have any sufficient Crime and Punishment. I know that you know that. I also know you do not WANT To have a sufficient Crime and Punishment system and I start to understand why.

I still think you are quite muddled on it, due to your inexperience. What makes you think I do not want a sufficient crime and punishment system? Clearly not by reading my previous posts in the 3.0 Beta test and repeatedly in the Suggestions forum where I've consistently said that C&P needs to add more consequences.

PS: instead of repeating all I said here you COULD state your own opinion now.

Sure, it's the same as always: Choose the play mode appropriate for your play-style. Let others do the same and don't come up with half-witted suggestions to change the modes system just to troll them.

Also: "Quick, PM Sandro with this immediately. I bet he'll be overjoyed that he has your ingenuity to call upon, for free too!"

The developers know all of this very well and they won't change it.
And you know very well why they will not stop combat-logging.

Yes; because it's not as widespread as it's made out to be and doesn't warrant immediate attention for priority. A bit like calls for a Solo-only game.

 

[JohannStrauss]

I would love to add something constructive, but you don't offer any points for me to construct upon. You appear to be simply ranting about Open, calling its players trolls and fantasising about some Solo-only game.

Case closed then. You do not want to add something constructive.
As you just said.
Your copy&paste work is thus only destructive.
Sad.

Edit: no, this is not true and unfair from me to say to you. You are trying to discuss the matter. And I remember that you took some of my points to your heart in former threads.

But at this point your unwillingness to accept or discuss my ideas does not bring us any further.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Case closed then. You do not want to add something constructive.
As you just said.
Your copy&paste work is thus only destructive.
Sad.

I copy & paste your quotes so that I may address them in turn. Other than criticising me, what exactly are you doing that's constructive here?

But at this point your unwillingness to accept or discuss my ideas does not bring us any further.

On this you are absolutely correct. I don't like your ideas on changing the mode I enjoy playing in. Fortunately, they are very unlikely to ever happen.