Honest question for pirates everywhere

[Incandescence]

Pirating is like a begging for attention at the moment.

 

[MahdDogg]

Players make themselves viable targets for pirates, especially the ones using Slopey's tool and the others out there to maximise their profits. In those Type 6's and Type 9's pirates will know that the value of their cargo will be immense. They'll be like Diamond Encrusted Tiffany pinatas. What salty dog wouldn't want to swing a stick at it?

But with this encouraged gentlemanly mindset the pirate engages and declares piracy "Your cargo or, um well I let you go with a small repair bill", there is no incentive for the person targeted to drop their cargo. The risk to a trader is minimal, and it shouldn't be.

Fair enough, pirates of old would fire a warning shot and hoist their colours, but a pirate got no notoriety if they let those that resisted live. Mercy would only be shown to a handful of survivors to spread the tales of the terrors on the high seas. Sometimes even compliance was met with ruthlessness, sailors forced into service, ships added to pirate fleets or scuppered amongst the waves. That's the mindset of pirate a trader should face, and fear.

If I get jumped by a pirate with a hold full of Beryllium on my way back to Asellus Primus (via Freeport's home system) I want to be nail bitingly terrified. I may have sold my weapons for that extra jump distance. There has to be a risk otherwise what is the point?

I don't know, maybe I've played DayZ too much. Walking into a town square and getting Pk'ed back to beachville feels fine to me, even after weeks of survival, because getting back to the position of armed and dangerous is part of the fun, and please people.

You have to remember the SCALE of this game. Finding a PC in this playground is going to be a rare occurrence, most pirates will be feeding off the NPC's, but that PC Trader will be the indium in the fish. In the full game people will be grouping up to fly and trade. Hitting a PC convoy is going to be a massive risk to pirates, but if you are a solo trader and stuffed to the belly with choice commodities cruising through an anarchy, or lifeless system you should be nervous. You should be wary. You should probably have chosen a safer route.

Pirates. If you see me hauling and I look kinda tasty, go for it. I may be armed and ready to defend myself - prepare for a spanking. Or I may have my life savings in my hold like an idiot and the equivalent of a party popper strapped to my hard points either way blood will be spilled.

That's the reason we take to the black. That's why we live to fly, and fly to live.

To paraphrase Ivan Drago in Rocky IV "If I die, I die."

 

[StayFrosty]

Let me say up front: This is not meant to be a discussion on whether pirating is good or bad. If you don't like pirating, please refrain from commenting on this thread.

This is a question I wanted to ask pirates. I asked it in another thread, but it seems more appropriate to make it its own.

I am a trader and always play in open mode. I very much like the fact that other players are pirates and still others are pirate hunters (not that those are the only 3 valid roles or anything.)

I've read a sentiment a few times offered by pirates which is along the lines of "Don't kill the golden goose" when it comes to the players they pirate. That is, it is better for profits if you can let people live so you can prey on them again. Repeat customers and all that.

I very much like and appreciate this sentiment. As a trader, I'd much rather be given the option to drop some/all cargo and it makes for more entertaining gameplay.

But I am not sure I follow the logic of it.

Blowing away a 'customer' doesn't remove them as a future customer since no one ever dies. At most, you might get on their ignore list, but that would happen regardless of whether your pirating succeeds. I understand that some of their cargo might be destroyed in their ship's destruction, but there is a good chance that you cannot carry all they had, anyway. Finally, IF they throw some cargo at you to appease you, there is a good chance it isn't their most valuable cargo.

I am really not trying to encourage the "destroy all and pick through the rubble" approach to pirating. If you play a more realistic pirate because you enjoy it or for a sense of honor, I honestly think that is a great reason. And I think it makes the game more fun for all of us. Just wondering if there is a more logical reason for it.

Piracy isn't a gentleman's sport: if a pirate wants your cargo, he won't bother wondering how you feel.

The only reasons I would see a pirate asking for cargo are:
- he doesn't want to waste ammunition on it
- he doesn't want to waste his time
- he thinks it could a tough fight, and/or reinfrocements could come, so he would rather play on the fear of the trader- let's not forget traders can have weapons, and they'd better learn how to use them

Now it's only up to you to make him want to ask for your cargo rather than try to blow you up.

 

[KickahasTier]

Hardly *my* solution, lol.

Well if traders feel they're consistently getting the short end of the stick gameplay-wise (and not having fun) then we'll be back at the 'problem' of all the PC traders flocking to Solo mode.

At any rate, Braben has said repeatedly that he's intending player on player violence in Elite Dangerous to be discouraged through gameplay mechanics like the Pilot's Federation bounties, etc.

I don't know how it's all going to shake out, but I remain positive.

Ah yes apologies, it's the OPs strategy I was criticizing as something akin to a vampire (not the cool kind, the bitey kind) partially sucking the life out of its prey... to you know, not get in too much trouble with the towns folk.

And yes, bring on the much heralded game play mechanics that don't need a opt in pVp flag. Hope springs eternal

 

[Zenicetus]

I don't know, maybe I've played DayZ too much. Walking into a town square and getting Pk'ed back to beachville feels fine to me, even after weeks of survival, because getting back to the position of armed and dangerous is part of the fun,

DayZ isn't a good comparison (IMO), because there is only one role in that game, and that's survival, with the same access to tools and weapons everyone else has. There is no separate mode for "courier" or "trader" who, by the nature of their profession, literally can't tool up the same way the pure combat-focused players can.

If ED was like DayZ, there would be no trader or mining ships at all. Just dedicated combat/survival-of-the-fittest ships.

P.S. I think that might be a fun game too, in its own way. But that's not what the FD team is setting up here.

 

[Literalyte]

I think everyone has overlooked the critical: player interdictions are not in yet.

This means you can't go chase, and of course harass, your prey.

People would be far more willing to drop cargo if it meant they didn't get constantly interdicted by an increasing irate pirate.

 

[Zenicetus]

I think everyone has overlooked the critical: player interdictions are not in yet.

This means you can't go chase, and of course harass, your prey.

People would be far more willing to drop cargo if it meant they didn't get constantly interdicted by an increasing irate pirate.

Okay, so the trader dumps all their cargo to avoid being followed and knocked out of SC, when player interdictions arrive. It ends there for the pirate, they get their loot. But it doesn't end there for the trader.

Now they jump into the next system on their route to replace their cargo or get repaired, and they're jumped by another pirate with a "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude.

What are they supposed to do? They have no cargo. It's an easy PK for some players, and some players will actually justify this, because they have no loot to drop. The pirates in this discussion aren't thinking things through, especially about serial pirate encounters when trying to move goods across multiple star systems. Every "pirate" thinks they're having the only interaction with a trader on a trade route.

I think this is game-breaking, if FD can't figure out how to balance it.

 

[Zvanya]

Now they jump into the next system on their route to replace their cargo or get repaired, and they're jumped by another pirate with a "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude.

Sounds as if in 70,000? settled systems there will be a player pirate waiting behind every asteroid. Really?

 

[Zenicetus]

Sounds as if in 70,000? settled systems there will be a player pirate waiting behind every asteroid. Really?

No, of course not. But the players who want to role-play pirates want interaction with more than NPC's, which means hanging out in the core systems with the most player traffic. Just saying "it's a big Galaxy" isn't the answer. That's what the designers of this game have to figure out.

 

[Cosmos]

Hardly *my* solution, lol.

Well if traders feel they're consistently getting the short end of the stick gameplay-wise (and not having fun) then we'll be back at the 'problem' of all the PC traders flocking to Solo mode.

At any rate, Braben has said repeatedly that he's intending player on player violence in Elite Dangerous to be discouraged through gameplay mechanics like the Pilot's Federation bounties, etc.

I don't know how it's all going to shake out, but I remain positive.

Back in the previous games trading was just part of the game rather than an entire way to play of its own and I find it a bit odd players feel thats all they want to do. I thought that one of the strengths of Elite was that we could be one thing a particular moment and another the next.

Ultimately, I think people are up for mutliplayer or they aren't. I certainly think dropping into single play has its place (i.e. to escape a really bad situation to stop real harassment on occasion) but chasing after those who aren't interested in multiplayer and catering the game around them in the hope they'll take part will just end up watering down the experience for those who do want to take part in it.

 

[Zvanya]

No, of course not. But the players who want to role-play pirates want interaction with more than NPC's, which means hanging out in the core systems with the most player traffic. Just saying "it's a big Galaxy" isn't the answer. That's what the designers of this game have to figure out.

No offense but I think it might be you who needs to figure stuff out, not the Devs. My opinion is they have it pretty well figured already.

 

[Stressfest]

I personally feel this should be an optional item of the game. If you want to trade and that alone you should have an option to be left alone other than opting for the nigel no friends single player mode.

If you don't want to be bugged by other players, you shouldn't have to. You paid for a game, to live as you the player deemed fit. It shouldn't be dictated by some twonk getting their jollies on astrological bullying.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Back in the previous games trading was just part of the game rather than an entire way to play of its own and I find it a bit odd players feel thats all they want to do. I thought that one of the strengths of Elite was that we could be one thing a particular moment and another the next.

)

That's the beauty of open world games - now and then. When Elite was released there was no real objective to the game other than have fun. You could just trade if you wanted but ultimately there was no real point as past a certain amount of wealth it trivialised the game. The same happens in all sand box games though - past a certain point nothing is too expensive and no loss too great.

In WoW (loose connection to ED I know) it's an MMOPRG with no real objective - many players are happy to farm and craft all day not bothering with the raid instances or PVP - I hated raiding but for some that was the only reason to play .. To them my play style was odd too

--

Regarding the OP with his statement of 'no one really dies' : wait until they implement Ironman, then come be a trader in that galaxy ! It's where I intend to play once I get the hang of things in normal!

 

[Kastor]

so it's never "fun" from the Trader side of the encounter.

Speak for yourself, I enjoyed being pirated. Especially by the talky ones.

 

[Helicity Boson]

This debate is that same one that pops up pretty much weekly on a forum threadnaught in EVE.

I personally suspect Piracy in ED might actually give the experience a lot of EVE pirates have been after from the start, but unable to achieve due to mechanics and the (almost) complete lack of cargo ferrying through dangerous space; The actual stealing of cargo under threat of violence.

Generally speaking, the smart pirate holds the victim hostage until he or she complies with the demands made (i.e. drop your cargo OR ELSE) and releases them if they comply.

In EVE it's considered (still) extremely bad form to kill someone if they have complied with your ransom demands, pirates that did that frequently sometimes find that they are hunted down by their peers. Afterall, some jerk not honoring ransoms is bad for THEIR business too.

Unfortunately for EVE the amount of players who can be found in the lower security systems that are not actually there to fight has dwindled to unicorn status over the years, and thus most "pirates" in low-security space in EVE are now technically just "PvPers" and ransoms are reserved for only the shiniest of ships (pay us X or we blow up your expensive capital ship).

Time will tell how Piracy in ED will evolve, such things tend to grow organically.

For Traders who may have no experienced the EVE/Sandbox thing prior:

Pirates are providing you with content, you should try and keep that in mind. You should also try to hedge your own bets with regards to your safety! If you have no protective measures (or even an escort) while you're hauling 50% of your total cash around... you're gonna have a bad time.

Last time a subsegment of players in EVE ignored this sage advice, thousands of them were rudely separated from their ships in a series of organised events and we all had a good laugh at their expense.

 

[Andi]

When I do piracy, I will pick ships that have no chance to outrun me, else I wouldn't have a chance to succeed. Hence the bigger ships need to be too slow to escape me.

I will be after the cargo, and I won't ask for it, I'll just target the cargo hatch and fire till it drops. However, if the victim returns fire and threatens my life (since I also have to pick all that dropped cargo up, which will take time and makes fighting impossible since I can't move around), I need to defend - and in case of players who won't give up, the outcome will be "me or them". Doesn't make me a murderer - I didn't attack with the intention to kill. It makes me a robber, I was there for the loot.

So how it should work is, I raise my pirate flag (maybe a comm message on a hotkey, like "this is a pirate interdiction. cease resistance or die"), attack the cargo hatch and if I receive any damage while doing so, I should not fall into the "assassin" category with the harsh bounties. My bounty should stay low, at the normal "piracy" level.

Should the target die without having shot back at me, the game should classify me as "assassin" and then place a huge bounty on my head and send hunters after me.

This is not real life. People will fight, being hurt in their e-honor, to death, because death means nothing - and because space-rich traders are more likely to replace their ship than the space-poor pirate.

OTOH, I don't really care whether it be player or NPC haulers I rob. If I want to immerse in pirate gameplay, what I want to play with is other pirates, showing off fat loot or exchanging stories of risky assaults, or how they dodged that certain bounty hunter.

tl:dr:

- I destroy the cargo hatch but not the ship: Low "piracy" class bounty, rep gain for the pirate faction
- I destroy the enemy ship without having received fire: I get an "assassin" class bounty, be targeted by NPC bounty hunters, maybe the target for combat missions, lose pirate faction.
- I destroy the victim after having received fire: Low "piracy" class bounty, no standing changes whatsoever

 

[Commander Debic]

Or just add the that particular type of pirate to your in-game ignore list so they end up in their own little instance with no one else but themselves to play with.

Definitely this +1

 

[MahdDogg]

DayZ isn't a good comparison (IMO), because there is only one role in that game, and that's survival, with the same access to tools and weapons everyone else has. There is no separate mode for "courier" or "trader" who, by the nature of their profession, literally can't tool up the same way the pure combat-focused players can.

If ED was like DayZ, there would be no trader or mining ships at all. Just dedicated combat/survival-of-the-fittest ships.

P.S. I think that might be a fun game too, in its own way. But that's not what the FD team is setting up here.

Who was making a comparison? Is that what you pick up on in my whole post? The bit about DayZ? Seriously?

I know they are not the same game, bleeding nora! But you are incorrect about the number of roles. As DayZ advances people have taken up a variety of roles in the game. Some people have started cults, some have taken to being the Chernarus Police force, some as naughty bandits and some as pure murdering psychopaths (I myself RP'd as a serial killer, insinuating myself into a group or joining forces with another player before leading them astray and hacking them to pieces with an axe). It's emergent gameplay driven by the people playing. More will come now that things such as hunting are part of the game.

But I digress. I was merely using DayZ as an example of being sent back to scratch and having to rebuild. It's about a mentality of the player.

I would be more interested on your thought's regarding the actual salient point of my post, if you can be bothered to read it.

 

[MahdDogg]

No, of course not. But the players who want to role-play pirates want interaction with more than NPC's, which means hanging out in the core systems with the most player traffic. Just saying "it's a big Galaxy" isn't the answer. That's what the designers of this game have to figure out.

Players who pirate (kinda like ladies who lunch eh?) will face stiff penalties for hanging out in core systems to target other players. Most of the core systems will have a security jurisdiction making it difficult for them to operate, sticking around to blast someone to kingdom come will not be worth it because of the "report crimes" function in each craft (a mechanic already in place). Once that report sends at the first sign of violence, the security forces will swoop in and mangle a pirate who is picking the bones of a kill. A sensible pirate won't murder or target people in these type of systems.

A sensible pirate will not kill people for the heck of it in anarchy systems either, because that will stop traders from routing through if it is too dangerous. On the other hand though, a sensible pirate will still kill when a target does not comply or resists otherwise what incentive does a target have to comply? It's catch 22. To apply a code of conduct to scallywags is oxymoronic.

I think this mentality that everyone should be "safe" is . Braben and co refer to griefing, but in terms that are pretty clear. Griefing is not PKing. It's a continued campaign of harassment of a player or an area. Yes they want to encourage co-operative play and discourage player on player violence, but have they ever said they don't want ANY violent player interaction at all? I haven't seen that. They are introducing mechanics to discourage particular actions, but if they wanted to eradicate it completely they could simply make it impossible to kill another player at all. They haven't and they won't. Because there needs to be risk inherent in all the roles within the game, otherwise the rewards are pretty worthless.

I worry however that people will start issuing "blacklists" of pirates for other traders which will see these people, who are legitimately playing the game, ignored out of any player interaction at all. That is not fair on the pirates. Not by a long shot.

I'll say it once again, attacking another player will be rare, but it shouldn't be manipulated out of the game completely otherwise what point is there to playing when there is no risk?

 

[D'Kaeth]

Ah yes apologies, it's the OPs strategy I was criticizing as something akin to a vampire (not the cool kind, the bitey kind) partially sucking the life out of its prey... to you know, not get in too much trouble with the towns folk.

And yes, bring on the much heralded game play mechanics that don't need a opt in pVp flag. Hope springs eternal

There is no strategy proposed in the OP. Just a question.