Hardware & Technical Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2

[Guy DudeBroMan]

I am currently using the non-FFB version of this stick. I don't use the throttle or the four base buttons because I am using lateral thrusters so often, I don't take my left hand off the keyboard, but for everything else, it works great. Mine has a little bit of center-flop because it has had a rough life of moving and being packed in gym bags, but still plug-and-play with Windows 7 and easily rebound in ED.

Personally, even if/when ED had/has FFB enabled, and I had a stick with it, I'd probably turn it off just because...all these craft are fly-by-wire anyway, so there shouldn't be any fight-back, even in-atmo.

 

[Rog]

There's a thread on the CH Products forums: CH Products Want List - What do we want to see
If you would like to see a modern USB version of a FFB stick, it might be worth reading the thread, and making a thoughtful post.

 

[JonnyRedHed]

There's a thread on the CH Products forums: CH Products Want List - What do we want to see
If you would like to see a modern USB version of a FFB stick, it might be worth reading the thread, and making a thoughtful post.

Thanks.

I am currently using the non-FFB version of this stick. I don't use the throttle or the four base buttons because I am using lateral thrusters so often, I don't take my left hand off the keyboard, but for everything else, it works great. Mine has a little bit of center-flop because it has had a rough life of moving and being packed in gym bags, but still plug-and-play with Windows 7 and easily rebound in ED.

Personally, even if/when ED had/has FFB enabled, and I had a stick with it, I'd probably turn it off just because...all these craft are fly-by-wire anyway, so there shouldn't be any fight-back, even in-atmo.

There are forces and effects that can be represented absolutely everywhere on a space craft via haptic feedback - (for a game) Important to remember. In the form of ships vibrations, different ships will have varying vibrations, and other events like weapons fire and combat and collision damage events, to ship warnings. Even modern jet fighters have haptic feedback of a sort on the stick and throttle. In space we just carry that idea over a bit mixing it with vibrations through the ship and its hull as well, translated through the stick.

Forces such as Landing gear operation, landing and take off forces and vibration, atmospheric flight - both entry and exit, atmospheric exit thrust forces, impacts in asteroid fields and with other space objects including other ships or docking rings, ballistic weapons fire vibration, combat damage vibrations from ballistic weapons fire and missile hits to shield impacts. Then there could be the vibration forces from using afterburners or sudden reverse thrust. And even some opposite force when nearing red/black out - a slow force building up when near blackout and then maybe a stick shaker reminder.

Plus anyone using a force feedback stick in Star Citizen will need the auto centring addressed, most sticks and HOTAS have the optical sensor to detect when the grip is held. So some section in the games settings/advanced joystick controls will need to have force feedback centring options. And many more I hope to further adjust force feedback options, such as strengths and maybe limiting where FFB is used.

 

[Rog]

Good FFB doesn't have to be a 'fight' with a stick that's bucking all over the place - it's far more subtle than that.

A slight ripple through your hand as you take fire, a push to one side as you get a glancing blow from another ship, entering a planet's atmosphere and feeling the buffeting on the ship, the 'clang' of touching down on a pad..... fantastic. Haptic feedback ftw.

Also, the current universal adoption of springs to re-center joysticks is hardly cutting edge or particularly customisable.

 

[JonnyRedHed]

Good FFB doesn't have to be a 'fight' with a stick that's bucking all over the place - it's far more subtle than that.

A slight ripple through your hand as you take fire, a push to one side as you get a glancing blow from another ship, entering a planet's atmosphere and feeling the buffeting on the ship, the 'clang' of touching down on a pad..... fantastic. Haptic feedback ftw.

Also, the current universal adoption of springs to re-center joysticks is hardly cutting edge or particularly customisable.

Yes your right and I agree, subtle types of haptic feedback are for the most part very useful and would be great to have in a space sim. The centring with these sticks needs the motors so some settings are needed to retain proper centring in-game.





On another note, for FD devs if they read this.


I'm guessing FD would need this software to aid in creating the force feedback programming.

http://www2.immersion.com/products/touchsense-force-feedback/


A software kit can be requested.

(legacy PC software section) http://www2.immersion.com/developers/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=109&Itemid=505

tips and tricks: http://www.immersion.com/developers/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=435&Itemid=636

 

[Guy DudeBroMan]

There are forces and effects that can be represented absolutely everywhere on a space craft via haptic feedback - (for a game) Important to remember. In the form of ships vibrations, different ships will have varying vibrations, and other events like weapons fire and combat and collision damage events, to ship warnings. Even modern jet fighters have haptic feedback of a sort on the stick and throttle. In space we just carry that idea over a bit mixing it with vibrations through the ship and its hull as well, translated through the stick.

Good FFB doesn't have to be a 'fight' with a stick that's bucking all over the place - it's far more subtle than that.

Okay, I getcha. It's been a very long time since I had FFB in-game (been on the Xbox for a while, and only really used an FFB steering wheel before that), and back when I was, it was all over-blown and over-exadurated. I've gotten used to relying on the visuals and audio representations since then, and, purely personal preference, would be a little distracted by feeling forces in the joystick that should actually be felt through the seat and feet instead.

 

[JonnyRedHed]

Yes feeling it through a proper built 6DOF seat would be a great thing, but not many people can afford this, even self building.

But first the force feedback programming has to be created and implemented game wide. Those *.ffe files can then be used by joysticks, xbox one triggers, and active gaming seat rigs.

I would want various haptic feedback for the joystick and as ROG says the subtle vibrations and directional forces would provide the best experience I feel in a space sim to further enhance the gaming experience for those whom desire it. .

With proper set up in the games advanced joystick settings these things could be better controlled. Such as where to apply forces and vibrations, the strengths of these forces etc. It could be opt in for force feedback, so not on by default which would seem sensible for those of us who want force feedback support we can switch it on and adjust settings.

I appreciate all this might not come at release of either game ED/SC. Things like TrackIR and OC rift support is more important.

I would jus like force feedback support though for that extra tactile experience. Whether it be just a little or full on 150% overdrive force, which one might use on a 6DOF gaming platform.

 

[Guy DudeBroMan]

Yes feeling it through a proper built 6DOF seat would be a great thing, but not many people can afford this, even self building.

But first the force feedback programming has to be created and implemented game wide. Those *.ffe files can then be used by joysticks, xbox one triggers, and active gaming seat rigs.

I would want various haptic feedback for the joystick and as ROG says the subtle vibrations and directional forces would provide the best experience.

But with proper set up in the games advanced joystick settings these things could be better controlled. Such as where to apply forces and vibrations, the strengths of these forces etc. It could be opt in for force feedback, so not on by default which would seem sensible for those of us who want force feedback support we can switch it on and adjust settings.

I appreciate all this might not come at release of either game ED/SC. Things like TrackIR and OC rift support is more important.

I would jus like force feedback support though for that extra tactile experience. Whether it be just a little or full on 150% overdrive force, which one might use on a 6DOF gaming platform.

Pfft. Force feedback joystick, seat, track-IR... Those are so primitive. What we need are Holodecks, clearly.

 

[JonnyRedHed]

Pfft. Force feedback joystick, seat, track-IR... Those are so primitive. What we need are Holodecks, clearly.

Well yes... in another 100-200 years or so.

I am a very frustrated futurist in that I want what's around the next 10 corners... now!. Tech hardware and software just moves too slowly for my liking. CPU power, Motherboard design, GPU design which is linked to processing power and memory speed. And of course the software to run it. All too slow in development I think. I understand companies like Intel and NV/AMD need to milk current releases to death to fund ongoing massive R&D costs... just frustrates me thats all the slow crawl onto the future.

And that I just wont live long enough to see all the cool gaming experiences available 100 years from now.


For the time being all I can is lobby for force feedback support in both games. And to use older force feedback HOTAS/Joysticks and or Mod them for better grips with more hats. I'm only interested in force feedback for space sims, other Flight sims don't interest me that much.

 

[Guy DudeBroMan]

I am a very frustrated futurist in that I want what's around the next 10 corners... now!

I hear ya. That's why I play games like this at all, because I can't fly my house around in space and see all the things I want to see like Hollywood keeps promising me.

 

[JonnyRedHed]

Well for the time being the first big step is to get a better idea of when force feedback will be implemented in ED. If not at release, then hopefully not too long after. Other modern current hardware like the Oc rift and trackIR and even EDTracker are more important, I appreciate that.

And plan to buy a fully made up and calibrated EDTracker at the end of the year.

Also same for Star Citizen, asking for and getting some more firm info regarding as and when force feedback will be started. I'm assuming logically it would be on just the ships to start with and all about the same forces to start with. Then becoming for subtle and varied with all the different ships and reflected with other events such as cargo loads and combat and other collisions in space and atmosphere and landing/take off.

Plenty of different types of haptic forces and vibrations to be had right across the fleets of ships in both games. And then in time across the both unfolding universes.


I'm very keen to help in any way I can the devs with testing force feedback and have all the main top force feedback sticks and HOTAS that still work in Win7 x64 and Win8...and I guess win9. All except the Logitech G940 HOTAS. Can't afford that, even as a collector of force feedback sticks. If any one wants to give away their force feedback stick to a good home. I'm more than willing to except it.

 

[Zillion]

Wow great so many people still have this beast

Mine is from 2000 and I played Combat Flight simulator and IL2 with it.

Forcefeedback would be nice, though I remember it can be tire your arm a bit after a couple of hours

 

[BigBossLucas]

Yes I use it, and it's still working as NEW, very accurate.

 

[NetCrash]

Just want to drop in and say, this is my trusty joystick! Aside from a few times when the game just doesn't recognize it (and then I have to reconfigure everything!)... it works like a charm. Might be nice if the game implemented Force Feedback...

To avoid the game-can't-detect-the-joystick I find myself clicking on its buttons while the game launches.

 

[Zillion]

I remember mine from my IL-2 days, I absolutely loved that stick. It made flying on the verge of stall a piece of cake since you could feel the initial fluttering before losing control.

I lost the power adapter for it in a move though and one day I just threw it away since it was "taking space". Boy do I regret that

There is no power adapter? Just this http://www.conrad.nl/nl/belkin-993888.html

 

[lysan]

Still have it and I hope that the FF will come to ED in a distant future

 

[Omegahunter]

I remember mine from my IL-2 days, I absolutely loved that stick. It made flying on the verge of stall a piece of cake since you could feel the initial fluttering before losing control.

I lost the power adapter for it in a move though and one day I just threw it away since it was "taking space". Boy do I regret that

There is no power adapter? Just this http://www.conrad.nl/nl/belkin-993888.html

Could be they had the original Microsoft Force Feedback (game port) joystick, that had a separate power adaptor. Unlike the FFB2 that had a built in one.

 

[JonnyRedHed]

Still have it and I hope that the FF will come to ED in a distant future

It will come eventually. David Braben confirmed they should be adding it, just not sure when at this point. And that was a Q&A last month.

The more it's discussed across this thread and the other, the better.

Is it even worth asking about force feedback?


I'll start an official [REQUEST] thread soon.




Well for the time being the first big step is to get a better idea of when force feedback will be implemented in ED. If not at release, then hopefully not too long after. Other modern current hardware like the Oc rift and trackIR and even EDTracker are more important, I appreciate that.

Also same for Star Citizen, asking for and getting some more firm info regarding as and when force feedback will be started. I'm assuming logically it would be on just the ships to start with and all about the same forces to start with. Then becoming for subtle and varied with all the different ships and reflected with other events such as cargo loads and combat and other collisions in space and atmosphere and landing/take off.

There are plenty of different types of haptic forces and vibrations to be had right across the fleets of ships in both games. And then in time across the both unfolding universes.



I plan to lobby hard for full and proper force feedback support to be planned out and implemented into the game and universe as it unfolds. I expect basic support to start with, like one set of forces and vibrations to be used on all ships, and then to see it more refined as time goes on and FD get a better understanding of haptic feedback. It will be a learning curve for some as its not been around much recently. But I feel FD (and CIG) have a great opportunity now to revive force feedback and make it anew for their space sim game.


Love Force Feedback!






I'm very keen to help in any way I can the devs with testing force feedback and have all the main top force feedback sticks and HOTAS that still work in Win7 x64 and Win8...and I guess win9. All except the Logitech G940 HOTAS. Can't afford that, even as a collector of force feedback sticks.

If any one wants to give away their force feedback stick to a good home. I'm more than willing to except it.

 

[Andy_Pipkin]

Wow great so many people still have this beast

Mine is from 2000 and I played Combat Flight simulator and IL2 with it.

Forcefeedback would be nice, though I remember it can be tire your arm a bit after a couple of hours

Same here, used it through my year-long "career" in a squad (the 61ShAP, a historical groundattack squadron, flying the Il2 itself).
To my personenal taste, the effects were a bit to strong...mg- and cannon-fire in particular.
So I tuned the effects a bit, using the FFB Editor, and the strain in my arm was gone.

Tail-buffetting and vibrations from enemy projectile-hits gave instant warnings of any signs of trouble, and the feedback from launching a rocket from underneath the wings was an awesome feeling.
I loved it, and I'm looking forward to JonnyRedHed's thread!

 

[Zillion]

My controls :

1 - Primary Fire
2 - Secondary Fire, UI panel select
3 - Lock Target Ahead, Previous UI panel tab *
4 - Turbo, Next UI panel tab *
5 - Systems panel
6 - Flight assist off
7 -Targets panel
8 - Head look (hold modus)
Hat/POV switch for flight thrust, UI panels, Head look
Throttle Throttle axis (inverted, full range, continous) **

* the prev and next UI panel tabs don't seem to work with the Hat / POV switch, up and down does work

** Unfortunately the throttle on the Sidewinder FFb2 does not have a clear middle position, so sometimes I still need to set speed to 0% via the keyboard, but maybe I need some more practice. Anyone a suggestion how to mod the joystick to get a little 'click' in the center of the throttle?

I tried out FaceTrackNoIR with my Logitech C310 webcam to see if I like the tracking thing via my head but I don't like it to much. I guess TrackIr or EDtracker will work better but I feel more in control using the Hat / Pov switch and I do not want to wear a headset always. I like my 5.1 surround speakers

Still need to do the keys for the galaxy map. But so far I guess I can live with this setup, no need to buy "HOTAS" gear for now and downgrade on the joystick quality. Maybe if I can get a separate Saitek X52 throttle 2nd hand..

As for force feedback, the stick already gives some force ingame. It would be very nice if implemented ingame but it needs to be able to tune it down (or up if you want some strain after a couple of hours )

By the way I saw a FFB2 Sidewinder for sale on Amazon 2nd hand for $349,-