The Star Citizen Thread V2.0

[ianw]

With regards to the apparent superiority of the mouse over all other controllers in Arena Commander, I have to wonder if the majority of the backlash has to do with PvP concerns.

I mean, I would greatly prefer a better HOTAS experience, too, but that's not because I'm worried about being disadvantaged in a PvP duel. It's more that I just like my x52 and want to play that way. I enjoyed Freelancer back in the day and that game was most definitely built around the mouse at the expense of everything else. It wasn't my favorite Roberts game, but it was a fun little title.

So, my question is: Would some of the posters here actually enjoy a mouse-centric Star Citizen for the single-player (Squadron 42) portion at least, or does the PvP concern trump that? For me I would probably still really enjoy SQ42 even if I had to use a mouse.

This Freelancer stuff reminds me of the arguments that were going on over there early last year.

IIRC CR was surprised at the number of Freelancer fans that started getting involved and there were all the usual mouse/KB v Hotas arguments (to be fair we've had the flight model original Elite v Frontier arguments here ad nauseam).

Also I think CR expressed surprise at some point at the poll results that showed so many people wanted to "explore".

Can't help wondering if these 2 "surprises" (I can't source the quotes but I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it) had some impact on the development as we see it now...

 

[psyron]

We always have Elite with Ultra Seamlessness to save us from Star Citizen and all these extra cutscenes and seams that distrupt the gameplay everywhere. So no worries mate!

Time for sarcasm?, sure, buy hey, this will become reality, even if you expect something else from SC.

And those you are doing those advertisments for should better wait for the game to be released before throwing money into it!
Guys, don't worry, it's not because you are not supporting the game NOW that the game will not be completed. (Not saying that i am sure that the game will be completed though.)

 

[Verne]

With regards to the apparent superiority of the mouse over all other controllers in Arena Commander, I have to wonder if the majority of the backlash has to do with PvP concerns.

I mean, I would greatly prefer a better HOTAS experience, too, but that's not because I'm worried about being disadvantaged in a PvP duel. It's more that I just like my x52 and want to play that way. I enjoyed Freelancer back in the day and that game was most definitely built around the mouse at the expense of everything else. It wasn't my favorite Roberts game, but it was a fun little title.

So, my question is: Would some of the posters here actually enjoy a mouse-centric Star Citizen for the single-player (Squadron 42) portion at least, or does the PvP concern trump that? For me I would probably still really enjoy SQ42 even if I had to use a mouse.

Freelancer was/is my favourite Robert's game. Although it certainly wasn't his favourite. I never could understand why there was so much hatred directed at the game. It certainly survived longer than his other titles in regards to player base. That is, until the other titles were made available through GOG. I tried playing them again but they feel very dated compared to Freelancer.

I prefer trackball and keyboard when playing. Never did like joysticks much. I will avoid PvP in the PU as much as possible as that aspect of the game holds very little interest for me.

Hopefully, all player options will be catered for and everyone will be happy.

Although, after reading this thread, that seems highly unlikely.

 

[Bains]

Freelancer was/is my favourite Robert's game. Although it certainly wasn't his favourite. I never could understand why there was so much hatred directed at the game. It certainly survived longer than his other titles in regards to player base. That is, until the other titles were made available through GOG. I tried playing them again but they feel very dated compared to Freelancer.

I prefer trackball and keyboard when playing. Never did like joysticks much. I will avoid PvP in the PU as much as possible as that aspect of the game holds very little interest for me.

Hopefully, all player options will be catered for and everyone will be happy.

Although, after reading this thread, that seems highly unlikely.

Well this, lack of content and pants on fire at least explains this ad hominem

Hmm..your reply, Bains, proves one thing. You don't pay particular attention to what you are reading. Or maybe my post was too mundane or sterile for you. Would you have paid more attention to my words if they had been hostile towards SC and full of invective? Perhaps if I had given the developers of the game wholesome praise my words would have registered with you.

Don't you get tired of this stream of invective comments that are paraded here, like some sort of trophy, by those who have already decided that the game is not for them? Wouldn't those who have genuine grievances and concerns be better served by posting in forums which are more likely to be seen by those who could address their grievances and concerns? I've usually found that it is those with the least to lose who shout the loudest on forums like these.

I'm proud of all the projects I've supported. I revel in the success of DB and the fulfillment of his dream (and ours) after so many years. I am continually amazed by JP and this young man's ardent wish to create his own masterpiece. And I admire CR for attempting to achieve what, for him, seemed like the impossible not that long ago.

SC may not be the BDSGE on delivery but like DB, JP and a fistful of other talented and passionate developers I've backed I wish them all success in their endeavors.:smilie:

I will leave you to your depressingly familiar conversation.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. :smilie:

 

[Bains]

With regards to the apparent superiority of the mouse over all other controllers in Arena Commander, I have to wonder if the majority of the backlash has to do with PvP concerns.

I mean, I would greatly prefer a better HOTAS experience, too, but that's not because I'm worried about being disadvantaged in a PvP duel. It's more that I just like my x52 and want to play that way. I enjoyed Freelancer back in the day and that game was most definitely built around the mouse at the expense of everything else. It wasn't my favorite Roberts game, but it was a fun little title.

So, my question is: Would some of the posters here actually enjoy a mouse-centric Star Citizen for the single-player (Squadron 42) portion at least, or does the PvP concern trump that? For me I would probably still really enjoy SQ42 even if I had to use a mouse.

It's a fair question. You like some gamers have broad enough tastes to like both. Thats certainly not the case for everybody. I venture to suggest the larger groups like one or the other. In my case I wouldn't play a single player follow the mouse flight game, which should clarify for you PvP is not the first consideration. Hence while I enjoyed WC, and X wing, freelancer was not my thing. FPS follow the mouse for a spaceship game ruins the experience for me. And then I learned over time that MP games that claim they can make zero order mouse and joystick player bases coexist are lying. I don't use that word lightly. The flight model has been designed with FPS controls in mind, hence typically nonexistant roll as one of many examples of factors to take into account the mouse, and there is no point of parity with respect to gunnery, and this is without taking the absurd gimbaling into account.

Thats why when they stated controller agnostic what was presumed was KB+mouse as a virtual joystick, as it is in elite.

The fact the game was meant to use controls like WC and not freelance was also made clear and was part of my decision to back. While I haven't book marked them, I'm sure others can provide links to interviews that will leave you in no doubt about this.

Hope that at least clarifies where I'm coming from for you.

 

[psyron]

http://www.gamersglobal.de/preview/gc14-star-citizen

it´s german so you need google translater to undestand it, but the funny fact is

The editor asked CR serious questions like "why do u implement a shooter in the game and in which sense?"
CR: "Look at the new hangars, and the ships"

So no precise answers to the questions which were asked. Fidelity here, fidelity there but no balls to the walls answers like "this is how we do it, this is why we do it". Only Hangars,Ships and thats it.

All in all it seems the almighty CR lost the big picture of delivering an actual game

Yet again a reason why i very DISLIKE CR. He is knowingly lying when saying that ED has only 2 types of stations and that CIG will do it better by making their hangars individual:
"Elite Dangerous hat zurzeit zwei Raumstationstypen. Die Stationen haben ansonsten zwar andere Namen und Preise für die Handelsgüter, gleichen sich aber ansonsten extrem. Wir machen das anders, bei uns ist jeder Hangar individuell. Ich halte das für wichtig fürs Spielgefühl."

I mean, come one, we all know that stations will be procedurally generated too and that there will therefore be hundreds or thousands of different looking stations floating in space.
Sure, there might only be 10-20 types of stations and the rest will be mutations of them, but if done right they will be very beautiful and very distinct looking.
CR on the other side will maybe create 30 or so handcrafted stations and that's it!

I mean TIME is the same for EVER dev team. If CIG don't want to release the game after 2020 they will have to limit the amount of station designs too.
To make fun of PG only shows one's lack of understanding about the beauty of that technology. And omitting PG in a comment about ED's "2" stations completely is a willful act of disrespect!

Using PG to create different mutations of stations is 100% the way to go:

 

[ianw]

I remember the controller agnostic statements.

I don't remember if it was ever stated that mouse would or wouldn't be implemented as a virtual joystick?

That question must have been directly asked since AC launched - does anyone know if that is the case and whether there has been a definitive answer (I kind of doubt it as I imagine there would have been a lot of accompanying noise...)?

 

[Bains]

Yet again a reason why i very DISLIKE CR. He is knowingly lying when saying that ED has only 2 types of stations and that CIG will do it better by making their hangars individual:
"Elite Dangerous hat zurzeit zwei Raumstationstypen. Die Stationen haben ansonsten zwar andere Namen und Preise für die Handelsgüter, gleichen sich aber ansonsten extrem. Wir machen das anders, bei uns ist jeder Hangar individuell. Ich halte das für wichtig fürs Spielgefühl."

I mean, come one, we all know that stations will be procedurally generated too and that there will therefore be hundreds or thousands of different looking stations floating in space.
Sure, there might only be 10-20 types of stations and the rest will be mutations of them, but if done right they will be very beautiful and very distinct looking.
CR on the other side will maybe create 30 or so handcrafted stations and that's it!

I mean TIME is the same for EVER dev team. If CIG don't want to release the game after 2020 they will have to limit the amount of station designs too.
To make fun of PG only shows one's lack of knowledge about the beauty of that technology. And omitting PG in a comment about ED's "2" stations completely is a willful act of disrespect!

Using PG to create different mutations of stations is 100% the way to go:

If there is any group of video game journalist least susceptible to hype it is the German journos. Got to admire them for this.

 

[Bains]

I remember the controller agnostic statements.

I don't remember if it was ever stated that mouse would or wouldn't be implemented as a virtual joystick?

That question must have been directly asked since AC launched - does anyone know if that is the case and whether there has been a definitive answer (I kind of doubt it as I imagine there would have been a lot of accompanying noise...)?

You can confidently presume that is what was meant given what zero order means for lack of parity, however it was stated. Not so long ago I think fourty4 posted one of several interview clarifying this.

I believe it was with Dr. Hawk and Lord Lesnick.


EDIT

38 minutes 50 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4wsWsh3kWM

"What previous games will the controls be like"

Answer

"Nothing like freelancer...It's going to be Wing Commander writ large, a game you need some skill to succeed...no click to win...no get the best thing and click on the other guys until they are dead"


Cut and dried. Both the intent and the acknowledgement out their own mouths as to what zero order mouse leads to.
And bear in mind, this had all been long since clear, this was just one more reassurance in response to a fan question.

How anyone can defend this and even go on to attack critics is beyond me.

 

[Verne]

Well this, lack of content and pants on fire at least explains this ad hominem

And there you are again, Bains. I wish I could say I cared what you think of my contributions here but I could care much less without trying very hard. I believe I gave an adequate answer to Jenner's question. it's sad that you believe my words were inadequate but that's your problem, not mine.

I hope Jenner considers my reply to be satisfactory.

 

[psyron]

If there is any group of video game journalist least susceptible to hype it is the German journos. Got to admire them for this.

Yes, this one really is a very critical rewiew on SC and CR. Especially on page 2:
http://www.gamersglobal.de/preview/gc14-star-citizen?page=0,1

Again, the only reason i see, why some hardcore SC fans are still praising this game to the sky is that they fear for their early investment into that game. I have for example till this day not hear Mr.Nowak telling us how much money he is invested into SC. Of course i know that some might see this information as a personal thing, but hey, it's like holding a big amount of stocks of a certain company, praising it in a stocks forum and not willing to talk about ones own investment into it! I mean how trustworthy is this?

 

[Bains]

And there you are again, Bains. I wish I could say I cared what you think of my contributions here but I could care much less without trying very hard. I believe I gave an adequate answer to Jenner's question. it's sad that you believe my words were inadequate but that's your problem, not mine.

I hope Jenner considers my reply to be satisfactory.

What you've revealed is you're fine with a group of backers who've being lied to and betrayed so long as you get your way, moreover you're happy to attack them personally for when they complain about it. In short you're a perfect example of why video game fans in general are their own worst enemy.

 

[Bains]

Yes, this one really is a very critical rewiew on SC and CR. Especially on page 2:
http://www.gamersglobal.de/preview/gc14-star-citizen?page=0,1

Again, the only reason i see, why some hardcore SC fans are still praising this game to the sky is that they fear for their early investment into that game. I have for example till this day not hear Mr.Nowak telling us how much money he is invested into SC. Of course i know that some might see this information as a personal thing, but hey, it's like holding a big amount of stocks of a certain company, praising it in a stocks forum and not willing to talk about ones own investment into it! I mean how trustworthy is this?

I think you need to factor in the bigger issue, the issue that allows computer game developers to take advantage of fans all the time. Your typical fan does not give a crap if another fan is getting shafted providing they are getting their own way. They will go so far as to defend the company. Meanwhile they suddenly get morality when it happens to them.

I would like to think the next time I hear of a company that shafts a group of fans, even if the net result is a game to my tastes, I will not defend them, because having seen all too much of it in the SC 'community' it turns my stomach.

 

[Verne]

What you've revealed is you're fine with a group of backers who've being lied to and betrayed so long as you get your way, moreover you're happy to attack them personally for when they complain about it. In short you're a perfect example of why video game fans in general are their own worst enemy.

I think you misunderstand me. I have been critical concerning some of the decisions made by CIG and have voiced my concerns to those who can give me some reassurance or explanation regarding those decisions. I've never felt the need to indulge in the pointless and constant bellyaching that I frequently witness from certain parties in this thread.

It's as though some of the contributors here would appreciate seeing the failure of what still promises to be a unique space sim experience. I just find that very hard to believe.

Why would a space sim player want any space sim project to fail?

 

[Bains]

I think you misunderstand me. I have been critical concerning some of the decisions made by CIG and have voiced my concerns to those who can give me some reassurance or explanation regarding those decisions. I've never felt the need to indulge in the pointless and constant bellyaching that I frequently witness from certain parties in this thread.

It's as though some of the contributors here would appreciate seeing the failure of what still promises to be a unique space sim experience. I just find that very hard to believe.

Why would a space sim player want any space sim project to fail?

I understand you very well, now for the sake of the thread find someone else to play with. I will too.

 

[Stormprooter]

With regards to the apparent superiority of the mouse over all other controllers in Arena Commander, I have to wonder if the majority of the backlash has to do with PvP concerns.

I mean, I would greatly prefer a better HOTAS experience, too, but that's not because I'm worried about being disadvantaged in a PvP duel. It's more that I just like my x52 and want to play that way. I enjoyed Freelancer back in the day and that game was most definitely built around the mouse at the expense of everything else. It wasn't my favorite Roberts game, but it was a fun little title.

So, my question is: Would some of the posters here actually enjoy a mouse-centric Star Citizen for the single-player (Squadron 42) portion at least, or does the PvP concern trump that? For me I would probably still really enjoy SQ42 even if I had to use a mouse.

I want to play the game with my HOTAS. I do not care what anyone else's preference is. I am not overly-concerned about others using the mouse in an OP fashion in PvP, the whole focus on the mouse to my mind is indicative of a more fundamental concern, that being CIG are going to focus the vast majority of effort on making a game for mouse & keyboard & console controllers - just like all the big publishers.

For example, Battlefield (3 &4), I play these games, and I do like them, for what they are, but something that irritates me is the lack of decent joystick support for the helicopters and jets. The controls have been designed for optimal use with either mouse & keyboard (on PC) or for console controllers - having a joystick is pretty pointless as the controls do not properly respond in a real analog fashion. E.g. throttle control is either slow down, do nothing or speed up - no analog throttle. pitch & roll are either do nothing, do a little or do a lot - 3 settings (except for mouse, which is analog for pitch & roll)
I find it very annoying that CIG, who promised us 'something different' seem to be going the same way as a big publisher like EA.

 

[Tiggo]

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/press

found it.

interesting they put it in the press dir ^^

 

[1500]

Yes, this one really is a very critical rewiew on SC and CR. Especially on page 2:
http://www.gamersglobal.de/preview/gc14-star-citizen?page=0,1

Again, the only reason i see, why some hardcore SC fans are still praising this game to the sky is that they fear for their early investment into that game. I have for example till this day not hear Mr.Nowak telling us how much money he is invested into SC. Of course i know that some might see this information as a personal thing, but hey, it's like holding a big amount of stocks of a certain company, praising it in a stocks forum and not willing to talk about ones own investment into it! I mean how trustworthy is this?

That is a truly critical view of SC as it currently stands, and reflects a lot of what has been said on this forum.

 

[SuperG]

With regards to the apparent superiority of the mouse over all other controllers in Arena Commander, I have to wonder if the majority of the backlash has to do with PvP concerns.

I mean, I would greatly prefer a better HOTAS experience, too, but that's not because I'm worried about being disadvantaged in a PvP duel. It's more that I just like my x52 and want to play that way. I enjoyed Freelancer back in the day and that game was most definitely built around the mouse at the expense of everything else. It wasn't my favorite Roberts game, but it was a fun little title.

So, my question is: Would some of the posters here actually enjoy a mouse-centric Star Citizen for the single-player (Squadron 42) portion at least, or does the PvP concern trump that? For me I would probably still really enjoy SQ42 even if I had to use a mouse.

I have no problem with mouse. From dev like perspective. Mouse Keyb is platform default. It is expected gamers will have.

I played space game before with decent Mouse support.
X-series
Freelancer.
works fine.

Have also order a Hotas for ED. As Mouse is dead there.

Also with that my interest for milsim has risen. So might try DCS world.
For F15 nostalgia.

Will even try it in X-Rebirth.

 

[Hermit]

It's as though some of the contributors here would appreciate seeing the failure of what still promises to be a unique space sim experience. I just find that very hard to believe.

Why would a space sim player want any space sim project to fail?

You misunderstand us. We really don't want it to fail. We just don't like the way they're doing things. When Star Citizen was first anounced, it promised to be a good space sim where your character was your ship. It was simple and they should've kept to that plan, with any further expansions made available down the line.

It was at that point when I backed the game.

But as the money came rolling in, so the idea seemed to snowball out of their control and become something I was uncomfortable with. Backers demanded more, CIG promised more, and more money poured into their coffers. They bought a sound studio, a mocap studio, they expanded into larger offices. All before anything playable was released (the hangar module doesn't count). They appeared to be doing everything at once to satisfy every backer and seemed to lose focus on the game itself.

When AC was finally released, it was found to be very lacking against all the hype of the game. Yet, those that complained about it on their forums were quickly shot down by the hardcore Church of Roberts acolytes on there. Some may accuse us of fanboyism, but it's nothing compared to what they have. They use words like "historic" and "ground-breaking" and view CR as some kind of gaming messiah. "In Chris we trust" is almost like a disturbing quasi-prayer they all mindlessly chant as they hand over more and more money in countless ship sales. And CIG, for obvious reasons, have done nothing to discourage this.

I mean, if David Braben tried to get all messianic on us, we'd all point and laugh at him! Even though he was one of the original creators of Elite, which really was a ground-breaking game in it's time.