The Star Citizen Thread V2.0

[Monarch Black]

Thanks a lot for the effort, especially from you who I know are a neutral-ish mind on the matter.
It helps answer my questions but it doesn't help ease my mind on this matter. In fact it's the opposite, you mentioned a few things I hadn't though of and now I'm even more worried.

To be honest I don't think CIG themselves have thought about it through very well.
I think they see a chance to make a ridiculous amount of money NOW and they're doing this and worrying about the economy of the game later. The more I see them talking about the whole funding thing (that video Mr.Nowak linked) the more I am convinced they have no idea or currently don't care about the problem as it is now.



Just one note on this: Ben mentioned that they'd sell ships post launch if the players still wanted it (which they will as usual).

This comment re-enforces my opinion that they haven't planned out the economy very well.
They really need to get some economic advisers over from EvE or Valve (Varoufakis <3) asap.


It is however IMPOSSIBLE to bring up the matter on the official forums or the subreddit.
The fanboy bees are too numerous.

Well, my sociable thread got closed for not bashing on Star Citizen constantly, so let's get to it here. I don't want this one closed. I think you have analyzed the situation very nicely Voivod. Better than I had done thus far myself. The biggest enemy to CIG thus far has been CIG. They don't think things through. They just say what is the best possible thing to be said at the moment and then worry about what is good or positive at a later date. I too believe that they risk ruining the economy of their game, if they haven't irrevocably ruined it already -- especially after considering what you laid out so nicely.

Eve hired an economist after they were up for a while. CIG currently has a marketing department, which has no idea how to balance an economy and profession-wise falls just below lawyers on the "what hell is filled with" demographics.

 

[cptzipzap]

No. Certainly the plan has changed. But this may sound counter intuitive but in fact the reverse is true to what you have stated. For all intents and purposes the focus is now a game of collecting ships, where as the original plan was a highly targeted game for PC users who weren't getting a lot of content and a return to the old school PC space sim.

Here's the originally pitch for you. Note how often the word 'universe' is used, how he leads with it and places so much emphasis on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhsgiliheP0

I think you are completely and just simply wrong here.

I am following SC since End 2012 loosely and 10/2013 relatively more close.

The scope changed dramatically. thats obvious. Maybe I didnt understand what your point was - but my point is clear - and I doubt thats its far from the truth..

the more money we give the more depth the whole thing gets. More stuff will be added before release. and you see thats what happening right now. Racing / plenty sub-shipmodels / luxury ships [clearly symptomatic for playing roles besides simple action fights] - I doubt that was planned for alpha in the original Campaign schedule plan more so for after release...

maybe you were hinting at the rather aggressive selling politics of CIG atm? Why do you think that collecting ships wasnt planned for the original scope of the game? isnt that a big part in space games? buying ships upgrading and buying the next big model? (look at freelancer for example)..

 

[Bains]

I think you are completely and just simply wrong here.

I am following SC since End 2012 loosely and 10/2013 relatively more close.

The scope changed dramatically. thats obvious. Maybe I didnt understand what your point was - but my point is clear - and I doubt thats its far from the truth..

the more money we give the more depth the whole thing gets. More stuff will be added before release. and you see thats what happening right now. Racing / plenty sub-shipmodels / luxury ships [clearly symptomatic for playing roles besides simple action fights] - I doubt that was planned for alpha in the original Campaign schedule plan...

At this point I would normally employ a picture of a guy with his head in the sand. But hey, it' a beautiful Sunday afternoon. I'm happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[cptzipzap]

lol - yeah better do that...

but in case you cant:

maybe you were hinting at the rather aggressive selling politics of CIG atm? Why do you think that collecting ships wasnt planned for the original scope of the game? isnt that a big part in space games? buying ships upgrading and buying the next big model? (look at freelancer for example)..

anyway - SC was always also about ship ****:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5DkZHtZlWU

 

[Monarch Black]

I think you are completely and just simpley totally wrong here.

I am following SC since End 2012 loosely and 10/2013 relativeley more close.

The scope changed dramatically. thats obvious. Maybe I didnt understand what your point was - but my point is clear - and I doubt thats its far from the truth..

I know Bains is a November '12 backer, or maybe before that, and I am an original Kickstarter backer as well. Back then the thrust was getting funding to encourage investors to invest in building a space sim. The ships were not being "sold" they were gifts for different levels of donations. Now CIG clearly calls them "ship sales" and the thrust is selling ships to be flown in a virtual universe which they may or may not ever finish. Nothing in the original kickstarter ever stated that they would be changing scope. Even if they got tons of money and didn't need outside investors anymore, the scope should have stayed the same. We didn't give the initial seed as "crazy cash", we gave it to make the specific game as laid out, and supposedly "planned" by CR (although there isn't much evidence that he really thought everything through and isn't just winging it now). A scope that seemed realistic. They are now promising everything to everyone and is starting to get that "too big to fail, so it obviously will fail" vibe.

 

[cptzipzap]

ok now I see what you and bains mean.

so in your eyes CIG had better just finished the game in the original scope and after release added stuff / changed stuff to what had been possible with the additional money?

Maybe yes maybe no.

The positive side effect of the actual over-promising and ship sales mentality is at least a high amount of money flowing in (probably much higher than if they hadnt promised more) - that will theoretically enable them to implement more stuff and higher quality stuff.

For example compare the original Hornet with the actual one..

(in case you dont: http://i.imgur.com/Heknp.jpg http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/22/21449/Cockpitmockup2.jpg )

you see the difference right? How can you say no to that

I for myself can live with the scope always getting bigger - while I know that might become a problem later (if its impossible to release modules / game modes because the scope increases quicker than the finishing of actual stuff). The speed of releases of promos and gamemodes in the last few weeks tells me that they are trying to be more quickly now. Maybe this has soemthing to do with the new executive guy they hired a few weeks back?!

I think so.. and it shows - in my eyes - they see it similar. I doubt there is a big danger of vapor ware now.

I for myself always had a problem with the term selling when it comes to the pledges. I can see why thats irritating. And I also feel they are doing it to gain more sales / money. I wont comment on that. CIG is aswell a corporation with employees in a harsh world. Who knows how the money flow is after release? the better and detailed the game is on release the more people will play it / buy it / recommend it. Its like the warm-up before a jump, I can can understand why they are trying to increase it as agressive as they can while staying somehow true to the original state.

and finally - yes - I am also missing the how D. Braben called it: the game loop.

The endless loading into instanced mini arenas isnt what I really want. I just hope they would focus a bit more in that direction. Maybe they cant / wont before 64bit implementation is done though...

 

[Bains]

ok now I see what you and bains mean.

so in your eyes CIG had better just finished the game in the original scope and after release added stuff / changed stuff to what had been possible with the additional money?

Maybe yes maybe no.

The positive side effect of the actual over-promising and ship sales mentality is at least a high amount of money flowing in (probably much higher than if they hadnt promised more) - that will theoretically enable them to implement more stuff and higher quality stuff.

For example compare the original Hornet with the actual one..

(in case you dont: http://i.imgur.com/Heknp.jpg http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/22/21449/Cockpitmockup2.jpg )

you see the difference right? How can you say no to that

I for myself can live with the scope always getting bigger - while I know that might become a problem later (if its impossible to release modules / game modes because the scope increases quicker than the finishing of actual stuff). The speed of releases of promos and gamemodes in the last few weeks tells me that they are trying to be more quickly now. Maybe this has soemthing to do with the new executive guy they hired a few weeks back?!

I think so.. and it shows - in my eyes - they see it similar. I doubt there is a big danger of vapor ware now.

OK, so instead of an old school PC space sim I get a visually impressive mainstream p2w casual mouse shooter with cracked economy and better hornets. I see.

I feel better now.

 

[Monarch Black]

ok now I see what you and bains mean.

so in your eyes CIG had better just finished the game in the original scope and after release added stuff / changed stuff to what had been possible with the additional money?

Maybe yes maybe no.

The positive side effect of the actual over-promising and ship sales mentality is at least a high amount of money flowing in (probably much higher than if they hadnt promised more) - that will theoretically enable them to implement more stuff and higher quality stuff.

For example compare the original Hornet with the actual one..

you see the difference right? How can you say no to that

I for myself can live the scope always getting bigger - while I know that might become a problem later. The speed of releases of promos and gamemodes the last few weeks tells me that they are trying to be more quickly now. Maybe this has soemthing to do with the new executive guy they hired a few weeks back?!

I think so.. and it shows - in my eyes - they see it similar. I doubt there is a big danger of vapor ware now.

I know you may be slightly jesting with the Hornet comment, with the wink and all. Personally, I gave them money based on the original Hornet, that was finished except for cockpit instruments. I would have been totally fine with them just adding the needed cockpit-info screens and being done with it. Move on to doing other ships. Maybe tops, make one more refinement pass at it. Not spend a year on it like they have done now. That is a ridiculous waste of time. In the pitch, they said they had all these assets done already. After they took our money they decided, no, they aren't real assets, we have to make everything from scratch.

I gave them money because they sold a work-in-progress. What it turned out to be is a work-not-yet-in-progress, since they haven't used anything from the initial pitch. They restarted fresh, only drawing some art direction from the pitch. And if you are saying I'm being sort of , then yes. You are right. CIG has worked on ruining the game the last couple years since I backed over there, so I came over here. The forum gods here have since screwed up my experience here. I am in a foul mood on the space-sim front. I've re-subbed to Eve. That is how far things have gotten. I'm now back to playing a game I haven't had more than 20 minutes of fun playing in the past 4 years.

 

[cptzipzap]

really you shouldnt play EVE.... I mean that! I played that since 2005.. its maybe the worst game ever made. It makes you mentally ill. The people in it are ill. In my eyes it doesnt even qualify as a game! nor work! its just torture. yeah you could have my stuff - but I will not login ^^

I see your frustration - and I understand it.

For bains I think he is being too superficial in my eyes. I also think playing with a mouse (what I did for testing for a few days) is a bit too easy for aiming and bad for flying. I would prefer mostly non gimballed weapons and a mouse control used in E - thats for sure. But I am not bitter about it as I think theres plenty of time for changing that. When the Highscore gets live I hope Control method is listed aswell - and if Mouse Users are statistically too good the controls get reworked the way till its true equal.

the example with the hornet stands for the overall degree of detail - the scope. You see its not only the hornet that got reworked. The whole game gets more detailed - and even if it was unnecessary - when watching those videos, when flying those ships - I think it was worth it somehow still.

and you know that aswell.

and another gameplay video since this is a SC thread to stay on topic - right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG-7CDFpzUY

 

[Monarch Black]

really you shouldnt play EVE.... I mean that! I played that since 2005.. its maybe the worst game ever made. It makes you mentally ill. The people in it are ill. In my eyes it doesnt even qualify as a game! nor work! its just torture. yeah you could have my stuff - but I will not login ^^

I see your frustration - and I understand it.

For bains I think he is being too superficial in my eyes. I also think playing with a mouse (what I did for testing for a few days) is a bit too easy for aiming and bad for flying. I would prefer mostly non gimballed weapons and a mouse control used in E - thats for sure. But I am not bitter about it as I think theres plenty of time for changing that. When the Highscore gets live I hope Control method is listed aswell - and if Mouse Users are statistically too good the controls get reworked the way till its true equal.

the example with the hornet stands for the overall degree of detail - the scope. You see its not only the hornet that got reworked. The whole game gets more detailed - and even if it was unnecessary - when watching those videos, when flying those ships - I think it was worth it somehow still.

and you know that aswell.

and another gameplay video since this is a SC thread to stay on topic - right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG-7CDFpzUY

Myself, I don't agree that it has gotten better. In that video, one will notice that the entire cockpit instrumentation has been scrapped. There is not info in the cockpit, only on a floaty, mid-air info screen that is played-off as helmet UI. It is cutting corners and crapping on the initial pitch's vision. All that visibility that is taken up by the cockpit is supposed to be useful info, not useless, high-poly renderings of the pilots hands and a bulkhead.

Also, been playing since 3/04 myself, so might even be more mentally ill than you. It was a good game at one time, just not recently. Still, getting pushed back into it by circumstances. Two games I'm really hopeful about. One is trying to do too much and might end up as vaporware. The other may turn out as a sterile single-player game. I may not have had much fun in the past few years with Eve, but there was fun there at one time, so there is always hope one can find it again.

 

[psyron]

...
the more money we give the more depth the whole thing gets.

JOIN NOW! Give us your money! Advertisment time again!

More stuff will be added before release. and you see thats what happening right now. Racing / plenty sub-shipmodels / luxury ships [clearly symptomatic for playing roles besides simple action fights] - I doubt that was planned for alpha in the original Campaign schedule plan more so for after release...

RACING YES!!! Exactly what everyone expected to get!!!

And btw guys, don't forget to give me some reputation points!! I heard that i am lacking those!

 

[Bains]

For me its a case of having ordered a car only to discover a camel with a flatulence problem is to be delivered.

No doubt those who enjoy the fragrance of methane will argue I should be more open minded, but to me the changes are and always will be so far beyond the scope of what was presented as to constitute a gross betrayal of trust.

In either case I believe the topic of discussion was the cracked economy.

 

[Monarch Black]

I'm trying man. Says I need to spread my love around more. Sounds a little gross, but I have done so... and it still says I need to spread it. Once I can get you some more rep I will.

Edit: Oh, that's right Bains. Need to stay on topic.
<sarcasm> I'm sure that CIG has considered all the ramifications of their ship sales. Sure, 1 ship may be the same monetary value as a year of playing Eve on the Pilot License EXtensions (PLEX), and they have a full-time economist on staff and 10 years of being in business and having the economy ingrained, as well as the most complex game economy ever made, but this up-start surely has it all figured out. </sarcasm>

 

[Bains]

I'm trying man. Says I need to spread my love around more. Sounds a little gross, but I have done so... and it still says I need to spread it. Once I can get you some more rep I will.

Same. But I'm working in it!

 

[psyron]

I'm trying man. Says I need to spread my love around more. Sounds a little gross, but I have done so... and it still says I need to spread it. Once I can get you some more rep I will.

Now i understand why so many people post "+1" on a quote of someone else. It's not so much for showing others that they appreciate what they have written, but it's more about hoping to get some reputations aswell.
I have spread a lot of reputations around, but never will i mention it to the people. Maybe only my German character of being shy or modest?

Edit:
Hey, i have now 2 reputation units on my description bar!! I feel such a release.
Thanks to all sooooo much.

 

[Voivod]

really you shouldnt play EVE.... I mean that! I played that since 2005.. its maybe the worst game ever made. It makes you mentally ill. The people in it are ill. In my eyes it doesnt even qualify as a game! nor work! its just torture. yeah you could have my stuff - but I will not login ^^

Heh, I personally think EvE is probably the best massive multiplayer game ever created. No other game has such a perfect player run economy, meta, socializing effects on actual gameplay, variety on things you can and actually meaningful PvP.
It's also 10+ years old and it's still going strong.
I also think that the most complicated skill you can pick up in any multiplayer game ever is being a top FC in EvE. There's probably a handful of them and the difference between the top ones and the very good ones is huge.

Anyway I'm on my 5th break now? It's always a break, you never quit EvE, you only take breaks. Been clean for ~6 months now.. but I still read EvE news/BRs and the subreddit (RIP Kugu and good riddance).

 

[Verne]

You misunderstand us. We really don't want it to fail. We just don't like the way they're doing things. When Star Citizen was first anounced, it promised to be a good space sim where your character was your ship. It was simple and they should've kept to that plan, with any further expansions made available down the line.

It was at that point when I backed the game.

But as the money came rolling in, so the idea seemed to snowball out of their control and become something I was uncomfortable with. Backers demanded more, CIG promised more, and more money poured into their coffers. They bought a sound studio, a mocap studio, they expanded into larger offices. All before anything playable was released (the hangar module doesn't count). They appeared to be doing everything at once to satisfy every backer and seemed to lose focus on the game itself.

When AC was finally released, it was found to be very lacking against all the hype of the game. Yet, those that complained about it on their forums were quickly shot down by the hardcore Church of Roberts acolytes on there. Some may accuse us of fanboyism, but it's nothing compared to what they have. They use words like "historic" and "ground-breaking" and view CR as some kind of gaming messiah. "In Chris we trust" is almost like a disturbing quasi-prayer they all mindlessly chant as they hand over more and more money in countless ship sales. And CIG, for obvious reasons, have done nothing to discourage this.

I mean, if David Braben tried to get all messianic on us, we'd all point and laugh at him! Even though he was one of the original creators of Elite, which really was a ground-breaking game in it's time.

Being an Original Backer myself I can well appreciate your explanation of why you feel as you do, Hermit. I do agree that it isn't as limited a game as I decided to back directly on the RSI website in the final quarter of 2012 but I'm all for a bigger and more inclusive vision when it comes to SC.

I liked what I saw in the original pitch but I'm even more pleased to see the expansion of the exploration elements of the game. I'm also pleased that extra cash is, and will be, used to fund hard physical assets such as the game development tools they will need to continue producing quality additions for the game. Although, once again, I take your point that these assets were not indispensable to the production of a playable release.

I also have to admit that I was more than a little disappointed with my initial experiences with AC. Since then I've tried to stay clear of indulging my curiosity as to the improvements they claim to be making with various patch releases by avoiding playing AC. I suppose I should also make it clear I'm a collector as well as a gamer so I have few problems concerning the plethora of merchandise available, including ships. I hasten to add that I spent far more on DB's project than my direct KS contribution to the making of Elite Dangerous. The backing of associated books and other merchandise far outweigh that amount.

I'm certainly not seeing CR as some sort of messiah. In fact I did a fair job of crushing that sort of nonsense talk when it reared its head on the Limit Theory forums. I totally agree that DB is no messiah either. Although, in the early KS days, it was almost as if he were made of such stuff. Tinman, could have been considered his prophet at the time.

Anyway, how could anyone take such a messiah seriously when he is so into Marks and Sparks knitwear?

 

[Stormprooter]

The scope changed dramatically. thats obvious.

This is an undenyable fact.

A better question may be; "Who changed the scope, and why?"

 

[psyron]

Not much news in this game review but i like its title:
Elite: Dangerous Challenges Star Citizen for Best Upcoming Space Sim (Ever)

I think competition is a good thing for the quality of a product therefore i am in favor of comparing both games directly.

 

[Firemonkey]

Haters gonna hate, a lot of hypocrisy going on arround here, like people that pretend they care about the money others spend on a game or what not.

Game is work in progress, and it will be for a long time, a lot of things that people seem to nitpicking can change, deal with it.

Someone asked about SinglePLayer portion of the game, theres some secrecy arround it cause their going for the cinematic feel and dont wanna ruin the surprise, but we can guess from the videos that it will involve a Mining Station, maybe protect it from pirates / vandulls dunno.

Video > http://youtu.be/yaq7LUOZIkI?list=PLVct2QDhDrB21nk_lXX4LV_5DUtX-d4kq