News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[WR3ND]

I have repeatedly stated ( *sigh* ) that I have no problems with every other aspect of the reveal - it looks fantastic, in fact.

I have also repeatedly pointed out - as have many others in this thread - that a game of "slowly loosen the system map blindfold teehee!" is not going to turn out to be entertaining. It is, in fact, a needless time-wall, to get the same information which the current ADS provides. After one does this little uncover-the-blindfold minigame a few times, it is going to become very obvious that it's a pointless time-wall. I'm still pretty dumbfounded as to why you and others can't see just how obvious this is. It's like pointing out the emperor has no clothes, yet you still claim the clothes are there - that's what this argument feels like. :/

Some people know of how to survive in the game without thriving in it, and since they are not thriving, they don't enjoy it, so they see no alternatives beyond what they view the game as being. Others however have some value in the current gameplay and continue to enjoy the game.

I'm generalizing, of course, but it seems as though some can only perceive the game within a theoretical potential and without taking into account what it currently has to offer, or thinking that what it currently has to offer is of no value.

Regardless, it is still of some value to others, and the game would be best served by expanding this potential instead of limiting it, in my opinion.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I have repeatedly stated ( *sigh* ) that I have no problems with every other aspect of the reveal - it looks fantastic, in fact.

I have also repeatedly pointed out - as have many others in this thread - that a game of "slowly loosen the system map blindfold teehee!" is not going to turn out to be entertaining. It is, in fact, a needless time-wall, to get the same information which the current ADS provides. After one does this little uncover-the-blindfold minigame a few times, it is going to become very obvious that it's a pointless time-wall. I'm still pretty dumbfounded as to why you and others can't see just how obvious this is. It's like pointing out the emperor has no clothes, yet you still claim the clothes are there - that's what this argument feels like. :/

Yeah, I guess that we already know we have different opinions think about it, sorry for asking

Have to say beta can't come faster...to either confirm your fears or my optimism.

 

[idahosurge]

What I would have liked is jumping in and honking the system then getting a system map just like the one we now have.

After honking the system then go the extra scan capability window if you want.

Then if you want proceed to the detailed discovery scanner.

To me taking away the current system map you get with honking a system is a step backwards. We should be able to keep the information that we currently get and Frontier add game mechanics to add detail, not take away what we currently have and replace it with something else and what looks like to me is just going to take longer.

Also I do not even know why I bother since no one from Frontier is going to read this let alone actually take into serious consideration what I said, but I at least wanted to post my opinion.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I have repeatedly stated ( *sigh* ) that I have no problems with every other aspect of the reveal - it looks fantastic, in fact.

I have also repeatedly pointed out - as have many others in this thread - that a game of "slowly loosen the system map blindfold teehee!" is not going to turn out to be entertaining. It is, in fact, a needless time-wall, to get the same information which the current ADS provides. After one does this little uncover-the-blindfold minigame a few times, it is going to become very obvious that it's a pointless time-wall. I'm still pretty dumbfounded as to why you and others can't see just how obvious this is. It's like pointing out the emperor has no clothes, yet you still claim the clothes are there - that's what this argument feels like. :/

People like different things. It is no reason to be dumbfounded, really. What you may think is boring is interesting to others, and what is interesting to you may be boring to others. It is really no mystery.

 

[Ziljan]

What mystery is being added? How is that mystery destroyed by the ability to make decisions?

Mystery is a lack of predictability. A lack of predictability doesn't mean a lack of choice. It just means that you need to rely more on pattern detection and then make an educated guess.

It sounds like you rely on the guaranteed wins on the system map to tell you what you to do, and then you call that "decision making".

 

[Tippis]

There is no blindfolding. What a silly thing to say.

How is it silly? You will have less information about the system you're in. You'll be flying blind. It is — quite literally — a blindfolding.

The current ADS is just busywork. What does that 5 second honk do.

Provide the information needed to decide whether it's a sufficiently interesting system to cancel the frameshift and have a closer look. Why five seconds rather than zero; why player-triggered rather than automated? Because the charge-up provide a sense of anticipation and satisfaction to the honk itself. But beyond that, yes, there's really no reason why it shouldn't just be a passive effect of having the module fitted.

As soon as you start calling gameplay a timewall, then the whole game can be called a time wall.

There is no gameplay in the timewall being discussed: it's just following UI prompts to reveal information that was hidden away for no useful purpose.

Mystery is a lack of predictability.

So no mystery is being added, and none is destroyed by the ability to make decisions. Indeed, the new system means there's less pattern recognition and less educated guesswork than there would be if the honk was retained and properly integrated.

 

[operant]

Fully agree. As much as I hate silly comments like "me too" or endless repetitions with small variations about the same old points of view, I think my stance on this should be quite clear by now. The only thing I feel being forced to is exactly that: to answer with the same boring repetitions to prevent the same old statements of a few being perceived as 'huge majority' by the devs. This is almost funny...

The not so funny part is that I've never perceived the game as grindy as I actually do with these repetitive arguing.

Well no one is forcing you to respond.

I think it is important to hear a different view, contrary to that of the white knights flooding the thread. Balance.

I suspect FD already made their decision - plus or minus a few minor details.

 

[operant]

Careful here. Next time when you might state how grindy the game is this very same argument could fly back right into your face.

Lots of the game is very grindy.

 

[askavir]

Mystery is a lack of predictability. A lack of predictability doesn't mean a lack of choice. It just means that you need to rely more on pattern detection and then make an educated guess.

It sounds like you rely on the guaranteed wins on the system map to tell you what you to do, and then you call that "decision making".

I guess that is the main difference of opinion regarding the ADS changes. For some, myself included, seeing where the planets are isn't the win, but merely the beginning. And for those (and me) the proposed changes to ADS, much like a Ryanair flight ticket, will only delay the beginning while bringing nothing worthwhile in return.

We'll see a few weeks after release how many people will still enjoy this change.

 

[Angus]

This is the main difference here - you and others like you want to have an 'air of mystery' - and I quickly want to know if a system is worth actually exploring or not. You seem to think that 'air of mystery' is part of exploring a system, including being initially blindfolded. I think that an 'air of mystery' is better served and more rewarding when there are things to find and do in the star system with the bodies which are present - that is, if FDEV add actual content within each star system, something that we currently have very little of. Whilst at the same time being able to quickly assess if a given star system is worth stopping and exploring further, in terms of stopping to survey the system further, just in general.

I respect your point of view, but it is exactly the same line that somebody disinterested in exploration but up for cherry-picking for credits would take. In fact that's exactly what I was doing when I started hot scooping. I'd become bored of exploring with its extremely limited mechanics and was racing home (custodian of the secret Death Star plans) to do some more interesting stuff in the bubble.

But, now............. we're being offered a system that will turn that on it's head, and I'm up for it. I like the idea of going in "blindfolded" as you put it. Because that generates a "what the hell is going on?" atmosphere, that I love. Kind of like the early episodes of new Galactica.

So yeah, I'm not averse to tweaks one way or the other, but FD have come up with an approach that pulls the shroud down on the galaxy, and in conjuction with the promised stuff under the shroud, while its going to be less popular for people disinterested in exploration, and some who are, I really want to give it a go.

 

[operant]

I do not do exploration, so the changes do not matter to me other than the extent to which they affect existing non-exploration game-play.
In particular discovering the location of the planetary base/station I am taking passengers to.

Did FD clarify whether the ADS honk will still do this?

As I mentioned before, having to engage in all the apparent new (busywork) faff just to find a local destination is a step in wrong direction for me, personally. Hope this ease of use aspect is not taken away.

 

[Ziljan]

So no mystery is being added, and none is destroyed by the ability to make decisions. Indeed, the new system means there's less pattern recognition and less educated guesswork than there would be if the honk was retained and properly integrated.

I have no idea how you're getting all of this "agency" from a brain dead godseye reveal, but kudos to you for the commitment on your RP of listening. Cheers, and good luck in the Beta.

 

[Angus]

By keeping the ADS honk, you want to put the last page of the book in the prologue and say: "Look! The mystery is still intact! Now I know exactly what pages of the mystery I want to read! What is the problem here?? I now have AGENCY, because I know which pages to skip!"

And this is how the young listen to their music now. They don't want albums! It's "give me the hits!". Like it's a box of flipping chocolates, and they just want the Strawberry Cremes! Cherry (well, strawberry) picking the artist's body of work. It's insufferable!

 

[operant]

You know your own 'argument' by now: Well no one is forcing you to play.

Enjoying playing and finding aspects of the game grindy are not mutually exclusive.
Whether specific repetitive gameplay is grindy is a personal matter of course.
But when you have 'new content' locked behind enforced, and seemingly senseless, repetitive gameplay then I think the grind label is more generally appropriate.
Senseless from a fun and game context perspective - perhaps not business metric perspective.

 

[operant]

This point was repeatedly answered so often by now, that the only sensible conclusion left is that you can't bother to read at all. And so can't I bother to answer this the umpteen's time.

Pretty please.
I genuinely have missed the answer.
But admit to not being predisposed to read 239 pages.

Pretty, pretty please

Wonder why you bothered answering that you cannot be bothered answering, rather than not just not answering. Just for the personal insult maybe ?

 

[Ziljan]

I guess that is the main difference of opinion regarding the ADS changes. For some, myself included, seeing where the planets are isn't the win, but merely the beginning. And for those (and me) the proposed changes to ADS, much like a Ryanair flight ticket, will only delay the beginning while bringing nothing worthwhile in return.

We'll see a few weeks after release how many people will still enjoy this change.

I agree the new scan mechanic is the first half of discovery, and as such it is equally as important as interactions with the planets themselves. There are so few parts to Exploration. I see no reason have half of it automated. It's not like we're too busy doing something else out there is it?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

How is it silly? You will have less information about the system you're in. You'll be flying blind. It is — quite literally — a blindfolding.

No you have the same and or more information that you had before when using the tools provided. Of course if you don't use the tools you will have no information, no different to the ADS now. If you don't use it, you are flying around blind like the current way.

Provide the information needed to decide whether it's a sufficiently interesting system to cancel the frameshift and have a closer look. Why five seconds rather than zero; why player-triggered rather than automated? Because the charge-up provide a sense of anticipation and satisfaction to the honk itself. But beyond that, yes, there's really no reason why it shouldn't just be a passive effect of having the module fitted.

I am not talking about the information you get after. I am talking the five second honk which I thought was obvious.

Does the charge up really give you a sense of anticipation. You are easily pleased it seems. Personally I hate it and have put up with it because there is nothing else in the game apart from paralax which I find even worse.

There is no gameplay in the timewall being discussed: it's just following UI prompts to reveal information that was hidden away for no useful purpose.

What you just described is gameplay. How good that gameplay is, none of us know as we haven't seen it in action or used it yet.

So now you are saying the current ADS shouldn't be there either and we should just have all the info when we jump in, because without the current ADS it's hidden away for no purpose.

 

[Tippis]

I agree the new scan mechanic is the first half of discovery, and as such it is equally as important as interactions with the planets themselves. There are so few parts to Exploration. I see no reason have half of it automated. It's not like we're too busy doing something else out there is it?

The ADS is not half of the discovery, though. It's not even a tenth. It's the very first sliver of numerous activities — exploration being just one of them — and its being automated just means it does not get in the way of, or overstay its welcome before you get into the meat of what you actually want to do.

Even if it were half of discovery, that's not sufficient reason make suddenly get in the way of things — rather, it's an argument for actually adding more exploration bits to the exploration; to give people something more (not something else) to do; to simply have more parts. Again: the part of this UI update where they actually do that — probing — seem to have been met with approval. It's the part where they keep you away from that for longer, and where they interfere with the gameplay of a number of other activities, that the problems begin.

 

[Tippis]

No you have the same and or more information that you had before when using the tools provided.

No, you don't.
You have vastly less information from the honk.
You have the exact same information if you play the minigame enough with all the system bodies.

You have to individually resolve possibly hundreds of bodies over a period of who-knows-how-long using rote repetition of following UI prompts just to get the navigational information that tells you where and how to fly to some interesting body without crashing into things.

I am not talking about the information you get after. I am talking the five second honk which I thought was obvious.

So am I. The current honk provides that information; the new one does not. You asked what the five-second honk gives, and it currently gives exactly that: the information needed to decide whether it's a sufficiently interesting system to cancel the frameshift and have a closer look. With the new system, you have to start playing the minigame to get that.

Does the charge up really give you a sense of anticipation.

It's called good sound design. ED is rather famous for it, as it turns out.

What you just described is gameplay.

No. Following UI prompts is not gameplay. “Please insert disk #2 in drive A:” is not gameplay. “Select Start > Solo from the main menu” is not gameplay. Pressing the button to bring up a map is not gameplay. It is just a UI layer that, in one case prolongs the wait before you can get to the gameplay, and in another is just a repetition of the same old gameplay with a new skin.

This is, at best, just FDev's take on QTE:s… or, well… STE:s — a form of interaction widely lambasted for not really being proper gameplay.

So now you are saying the current ADS shouldn't be there either and we should just have all the info when we jump in, because without the current ADS it's hidden away for no purpose.

Nope. Read it again.

 

[Angus]

I'll say it one more time: what mystery is being destroyed by the ability to make decisions? It keeps being brought up but never actually explained or defined.

Erm..... revelation, by it's nature removes mystery. That's just how it is.

Doesn't make it right or wrong.