PvP "Melee" FDL PVP: should the leading indicator be a toggle option when using hitscan?

In this video example, I'm able to ram my opponents at will by using the target leading reticule as a guide. This only appears on your HUD when using projectiles, not lasers or rails. I think this should be an option to turn on when using those hitscan weapons since the indicator is a valuable source of relative vector information. Thoughts?

 
Last edited:
The problem is that the leading indicator is placed based on the projectile velocity of the weapon. A PA's lead is way further out than a multicannon's, and missiles follow their own logic. What would a "toggle" lead for? Not saying it can't be done, just that it takes a bit of thought. A "ram" leading indicator would be difficult as the computer doesn't know how fast you plan to accelerate.
 
What would a "toggle" lead for? Not saying it can't be done, just that it takes a bit of thought.

Yeah, that's probably the main issue - the indicator is subjective according to what weapon(s) you have deployed. Any toggle option would have to either pick one or give you the choice between, say, multicannon or regular (not focused) plasma. It's too bad, because it really does seem to leave hitscan pilots at a disadvantage, especially if I'm lining up a ram while facing away from my target. Without an indicator, it's much harder for them to see some rams coming.
 
missiles follow their own logic

Missiles velocity is relative to the instance's frame of reference; they don't gain any velocity from the ship firing them...odd and counter intuitive, but that's how they work.

It's too bad, because it really does seem to leave hitscan pilots at a disadvantage, especially if I'm lining up a ram while facing away from my target. Without an indicator, it's much harder for them to see some rams coming.

While I agree that the lead indicator does provide some valuable information, I would be astounded if anyone could land more than one ram in six on my FDL with another FDL, lead indicator or not. Distance indicator/sensors is enough, and even in their absence, eyes will usually reveal that something is closing rapidly.
 
I would be astounded if anyone could land more than one ram in six on my FDL with another FDL, lead indicator or not.

Using the technique I describe in the video, I'm able to ram at will (or have advantageous very close flybys) three different FDLs, all flown by long time experienced PVPers. It's also been much, much easier to hit small ships, even SLF.
 
Using the technique I describe in the video, I'm able to ram at will (or have advantageous very close flybys) three different FDLs, all flown by long time experienced PVPers. It's also been much, much easier to hit small ships, even SLF.

I've never had a very high opinion of the effectiveness of ramming, and what you've shown so far doesn't change that. Most of the ramming I saw was against FA Off KBM users that either weren't trying to avoid the collision or didn't have as advantageous vertical/lateral thrust bindings.

Without a lead indicator, any ram will still be telegraphed by the the thrusters on the ship in question. In my experience, it's virtually always easier to side step a ram than it is to deliberately ram someone, especially if they've had time to accelerate enough to make the closing velocity significant.

Maybe I'm mistaken and this 'melee' approach is more effective than I'm giving credit. If you're around in game some time would you be interested in a friendly FDL duel? I could use the practice.
 
or didn't have as advantageous vertical/lateral thrust bindings

I think this is definitely part of it. While I've always enjoyed using rams to mix things up, I've never had the control of them like this until switching to analog thruster control (mapping thruster x&y axis to an analogue thumbstick w/curves set up). KBM users using mapped keys for thrust only have on/off along with a more restricted method of mixing thrusters. Sure, hitting "W" and "A" together will get you 45 deg., but a 360 deg. analog stick gives me the full range in a much more intuitive way - just match the stick position to the reticle position relative to the target and apply enough thrust (boosting, ideally) to match vectors and set up a rendezvous. And I don't have to rapidly change which multiple keys I'm hitting; just one smooth motion w/the stick. It actually has me curious to try dual joysticks.

Without a lead indicator, any ram will still be telegraphed by the the thrusters on the ship in question. In my experience, it's virtually always easier to side step a ram than it is to deliberately ram someone

Now that I have better thruster control, I can use tactics like hiding my intentions until the last second or two, then redirecting boost through the thrusters to slip sideways into it. Or juking one way and then switching it up. If they happen to time a late boost the same moment I do, then we just fight for control. Kind of like a very fast interdiction minigame.

If you're around in game some time would you be interested in a friendly FDL duel? I could use the practice.

Anytime! I'll add you in game.
 
I think this is definitely part of it. While I've always enjoyed using rams to mix things up, I've never had the control of them like this until switching to analog thruster control (mapping thruster x&y axis to an analogue thumbstick w/curves set up). KBM users using mapped keys for thrust only have on/off along with a more restricted method of mixing thrusters. Sure, hitting "W" and "A" together will get you 45 deg., but a 360 deg. analog stick gives me the full range in a much more intuitive way - just match the stick position to the reticle position relative to the target and apply enough thrust (boosting, ideally) to match vectors and set up a rendezvous. And I don't have to rapidly change which multiple keys I'm hitting; just one smooth motion w/the stick. It actually has me curious to try dual joysticks.

A analog mini stick does help a lot. I've been using a CH Pro Throttle with one for as long as I've had Elite: Dangerous and wouldn't recommend a HOTAS without one...hell, probably wouldn't recommend using a mouse without an off-hand controller that had an analog stick either.

Dabbled with dual-sticks a bit, but I'd need to find a better way of mounting the stick and throttle on the left side so both are usable, as well as better sticks. Will probably look in to getting a Virpil or VBK setup at some point, budget permitting.

Now that I have better thruster control, I can use tactics like hiding my intentions until the last second or two, then redirecting boost through the thrusters to slip sideways into it. Or juking one way and then switching it up. If they happen to time a late boost the same moment I do, then we just fight for control. Kind of like a very fast interdiction minigame.

Still seems like it wouldn't be a full force impact if the other party has paying attention to distance, but there are a lot of factors to consider.

Anytime! I'll add you in game.

My CMDR's name is Backer #-12412. I'm switching between the live and Beta games quite frequently, but I'm around pretty regularly, often in the LHS 20 area.
 
If and when this fight happens, and it isn't too much trouble, I'd love to see video from both perspectives. I think it would provide some really nice insight to the discussion. :)
 
If and when this fight happens, and it isn't too much trouble, I'd love to see video from both perspectives. I think it would provide some really nice insight to the discussion. :)

We met up earlier tonight and Starmony's heavy prismatic (~3k shield and hull) loadout sparred against the middle weight hybrid setup (~800MJ shield, ~2k hull) I've been dabbling with, as well as some GU-97s.

Recorded the whole session from my perspective and am uploading it now, uncut. Will take a while (file is over 30GB and I'll need to wait for YouTube to convert it), but I'll post it when it's ready.

I lost each engagement by a wide margin (though that margin narrowed with each fight as I became reacquainted with the FDL and started using the fixed hitscan and gimbaled kinetics I'm more accustomed to). I did mange to evade most ramming attempts, though not quite as many as I'd hoped to, and it doesn't take many collisions to make a difference especially when the ship doing the ramming has a modest mass and huge shield strength advantage. I may have been fairly close with my 1-in-6 estimate, if not a little better, but when each mistake cost two rings of shields or 30% of my hull, 1-in-6 is still too many.

[video=youtube;2IPg1aIC7Bg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IPg1aIC7Bg[/video]

Perhaps most interestingly, from my perspective, is that I got to get a good look at the sort of effect latency compensation has on collisions, which should help be more evasive in the future. This became most clear later in the fight, while I was using the GU-97. It turns out that collisions were happening at a range of ~170-180m from my perspective, which is much greater than I was anticipating. This probably shouldn't have surprised me as much as it did, as the game has always favored the attacker's PoV when calculating hit locations and dealing damage (if you get people with high enough ping into a turning contest, they can both appear to be shooting the other in the back).

Here are some screen grabs I pulled from the source video that illustrates this; the first image of each set is the last frame I saw before being destroyed, the second frame the moment I was destroyed (the very next frame, which is only 16.67ms later, as I'm recording at 60fps):

6cdPV4L.jpg

WnxYUUv.jpg

5l3hS4I.jpg

fXHkMRb.jpg

The net result of all this appears to be that, depending on how much latency and thus latency compensation there is, you may have to keep a distance of multiple hundreds of meters to prevent your opponent from seeing and your ship from registering a collision. I think Starmony and I are on the same continent, so I can imagine how enormous the potential threat bubble will be against overseas opponents. This also makes me think that ship speeds may already be too high for ED's networking model.

I wonder if there are any tweaks that could be done to the balance of the latency compensation to make oddities like this less apparent?

Anyway, the all in on MJ plus five PA build is quite potent, even with out ramming, and Starmony is quite good with it. It's going to be hard to counter, at least 1v1, without cloning and learning to use a setup I don't prefer, or playing to entirely different strengths/tactics that would make fights extremely protracted and frustrating.
 
Last edited:
What would a "toggle" lead for? Not saying it can't be done, just that it takes a bit of thought. A "ram" leading indicator would be difficult as the computer doesn't know how fast you plan to accelerate.

it could be a rule shaped indicator, from current speed up. also a ramming computer would be in order.

that said, ramming should result in self destruction unless you're trampling a sidey with a corvette. it's as lame as it really gets. ok, it's a game.
 
We met up earlier tonight and Starmony's heavy prismatic (~3k shield and hull) loadout sparred against the middle weight hybrid setup (800MJ shield, 2k hull) I've been dabbling with, as well as some GU-97s.

Recorded the whole session from my perspective and am uploading it now, uncut. Will take a while (file is over 30GB and I'll need to wait for YouTube to convert it), but I'll post it when it's ready.

I lost each engagement by a wide margin (though that margin narrowed with each fight as I became reacquainted with the FDL and started using the fixed hitscan and gimbaled kinetics I'm more accustomed to). I did mange to evade most ramming attempts, though not quite as many as I'd hoped to, and it doesn't take many collisions to make a difference especially when the ship doing the ramming has a modest mass and huge shield strength advantage. I may have been fairly close with my 1-in-6 estimate, if not a little better, but when each mistake cost two rings of shields or 30% of my hull, 1-in-6 is still too many.

**video placeholder** -- https://youtu.be/2IPg1aIC7Bg -- not live yet, will update post when it is.

Perhaps most interestingly, from my perspective, is that I got to get a good look at the sort of effect latency compensation has on collisions, which should help be more evasive in the future. This became most clear later in the fight, while I was using the GU-97. It turns out that collisions were happening at a range of ~170-180m from my perspective, which is much greater than I was anticipating. This probably shouldn't have surprised me as much as it did, as the game has always favored the attacker's PoV when calculating hit locations and dealing damage (if you get people with high enough ping into a turning contest, they can both appear to be shooting the other in the back).

Here are some screen grabs I pulled from the source video that illustrates this; the first image of each set is the last frame I saw before being destroyed, the second frame the moment I was destroyed (the very next frame, which is only 16.67ms later, as I'm recording at 60fps):



The net result of all this appears to be that, depending on how much latency and thus latency compensation there is, you may have to keep a distance of multiple hundreds of meters to prevent your opponent from seeing and your ship from registering a collision. I think Starmony and I are on the same continent, so I can imagine how enormous the potential threat bubble will be against overseas opponents. This also makes me think that ship speeds may already be too high for ED's networking model.

I wonder if there are any tweaks that could be done to the balance of the latency compensation to make oddities like this less apparent?

Anyway, the all in on MJ plus five PA build is quite potent, even with out ramming, and Starmony is quite good with it. It's going to be hard to counter, at least 1v1, without cloning and learning to use a setup I don't prefer, or playing to entirely different strengths/tactics that would make fights extremely protracted and frustrating.

Nice writeup, thanks.

It seems to me that "as the bird flies" distance is only one of several factors.
I'm in the middle of the pacific and have had great sessions with people in Europe, yet suffered terrible lag with some people on the continental US, which is much closer.

Seems that local switching and transmission plays a pretty significant role as well.
I'm thinking my deep sea cable is possibly faster/cleaner than some of the overland networks some players' signals have to navigate locally, over shorter distances.
 
Great write up. Looking forward to watching the video this weekend. Thanks so much. :)

Updated the post with the video, but YouTube is going to take a while to get all the resolutions/frame rates. Should be a 4k60 version by sometime tomorrow.

Edit: As of this edit, 1080p60 is available, so it's watchable now.

that said, ramming should result in self destruction unless you're trampling a sidey with a corvette. it's as lame as it really gets. ok, it's a game.

I do think it was a mistake to reduce collision damage when they did. The original damage (which was 2.5x higher) wouldn't stop ramming attacks, nor should it, but it would make them much costlier and much riskier without an extreme mass advantage.

It seems to me that "as the bird flies" distance is only one of several factors.
I'm in the middle of the pacific and have had great sessions with people in Europe, yet suffered terrible lag with some people on the continental US, which is much closer.

Seems that local switching and transmission plays a pretty significant role as well.
I'm thinking my deep sea cable is possibly faster/cleaner than some of the overland networks some players' signals have to navigate locally, over shorter distances.

Yeah, number of hops and the quality of the networks it's passing through surely has an impact.

After you play for a significant session in Open, quit to main menu and look at your network options. What sort of average ping do you see?

I typically see 300-500ms, and I'm located in upstate NY.
 
Last edited:
In this video example, I'm able to ram my opponents at will by using the target leading reticule as a guide. This only appears on your HUD when using projectiles, not lasers or rails. I think this should be an option to turn on when using those hitscan weapons since the indicator is a valuable source of relative vector information. Thoughts?

Do you mind posting a link to your FDL build? All I know is you have prismatics + 5 PAs.
 
Yeah, number of hops and the quality of the networks it's passing through surely has an impact.

After you play for a significant session in Open, quit to main menu and look at your network options. What sort of average ping do you see?

I typically see 300-500ms, and I'm located in upstate NY.



I don't think that info is that readily available to us console plebes is it?
I'm at about 100 (to Dallas) on my laptop right now.
 
Recorded the whole session from my perspective and am uploading it now, uncut.

That was quick! Thanks for this; I haven't been able to see what these tactics look like from the other side, so I'm looking forward to watching later.

Perhaps most interestingly, from my perspective, is that I got to get a good look at the sort of effect latency compensation has on collisions, which should help be more evasive in the future. This became most clear later in the fight, while I was using the GU-97. It turns out that collisions were happening at a range of ~170-180m from my perspective, which is much greater than I was anticipating.

And sometimes even worse then that...the dreaded "shadow rams".

I think Starmony and I are on the same continent, so I can imagine how enormous the potential threat bubble will be against overseas opponents.

We are, though we're separated by about 3,000 miles. I'm in the Pacific NW.

I recorded these tests as well but haven't had the chance to upload them yet. I'll post the unedited (mostly; I'll trim out the stuff in between the actual fighting) footage in the next day or so with an update here.

Thanks again for the fights; it was great practice in a week where I haven't had the chance to play much.
 
Do you mind posting a link to your FDL build? All I know is you have prismatics + 5 PAs.

Sure thing. Coriolis link.

Basically G5 reinforced, hi-cap 5A Prismatic with 5 shield boosters, 3 of them heavy duty/super capacitors and 2 resist augmented (one super capacitor, one thermo block). Rest of the internals are heavy dull hull reinforcements. Armor is heavy duty deep plating reactive surface composites.
 
Back
Top Bottom