The Star Citizen Thread V10

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So what is the other option? Stop working on adding and improving the content people are enjoying?

How many people are trully enjoying in this current mess honestly?
P.S. Yes I also think that this 3.3/3.4 IS the most"FUN"2 play patch so far but for me personally it´s still far....far....away from any potential enjoyment.......
 
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There never was another option because the other option was to be a competent and capable developer with a firm grasp of what is and isn't within your abilities and that ship didn't even get built, never mind sailed.

So there is one way? I rather have the consumer own the product by willingly paying in earlier (ie crowdfunding) than traditional investors owning the majority control of the company and always seeking return on profit. Additionally, wouldn't be easy saying incompetent to the hundreds of talented devs at CIG to their face. Because they are very competent. You can have a look on their LinkedIn profiles if you would like.

Start working on the core of the game rather than adding more (or polishing old) pointless frivolities at the edges.

Since when is game development a linear production but not serial? SC is moving forward on multiple departments. Here is a visualization by category: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/roadmap/board/1-Star-Citizen

Gamedev is consisting of multiple departments working on different things and pushing them forward. The entire studio wasn't waiting on the Mining Design to finish to work on their own tasks. Trading and mining in SC are pretty solid. There is even a dedicated community application for them. https://www.versemate.com/
 
Since when is game development a linear production but not serial?
Since forever as far as core components go since any effort made elsewhere is wholly wasted until that core is done.

Why do you ask?

SC is moving forward on multiple departments.
Not really, no. They're running around in circles in multiple departments because they are building on unstable, undefined, ever-shifting grounds, which forces them to do constant re-works, re-implementations, and other point efforts that do not solve the underlying systemic problem. The patch list demonstrates this amply.

CIG as a studio has become a full-spectrum showcase of anti-patterns at this point, and need to get out of those modes of operating before they can move ahead in any meaningful way.
 
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Since forever as far as core components go since any effort made elsewhere is wholly wasted until that core is done.

Not really, no. They're running around in circles in multiple departments because they are building on unstable, undefined, ever-shifting grounds, which forces them to do constant re-works, re-implementations, and other point efforts that do not solve the underlying systemic problem. The patch list demonstrates this amply.

We must be playing different games then. SC is improving in every way possible. Locations, Gameplay, Ships, UI, Combat, Flight, Trade, Mining just name it. You can even observe said progress on the roadmap or by reading every patch note for the past 6 years. Or by playing it. Progress on all departments. If you like we can look at some 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 footage to compare?

Also I rather have a game improve than stay still in Alpha. If anything iteration is the only way forward until a Beta.

Slight edit. Looking at a patch list in the PTU which is addressing problems of a previous patch is not a logical way of judging anything. Every patch breaks and changes different things in software development. Additionally, early testing like PTU are meant to fix the worst issues step by step until a more desirable Live build is achieved.
 
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We must be playing different games then.
Again, not really no.

The problem is that you're still focusing on that pointless surface ephemera — the stuff that gets stuck in the constant rework loops because the core is not done (or in many cases even designed). The way the roadmap is almost wholly detached from any reality in terms of when things will actually be done further demonstrates this issue of having to work against a moving target.

If you like we can look at some 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 footage to compare?

That would perfectly illustrate the problem and all that wasted effort.

Also I rather have a game improve than stay still in Alpha.

That's the problem: SC has stayed still in alpha for a very long time now, with tons of effort being poured into work that should not happen until late beta because there are still too many moving parts to nail anything down.
 
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So the entire game must wait until another department finishes work on a gameplay mechanic? I don't understand this serial logic. They have 500 devs. They must work and improve the game. It's all paralell SC has several different teams focusing on different subjects. There are two gameplay feature teams entirely focused on the professions for example.

I don't understand how updating and improving every component is wasted effort? This is not a game where they will release in 2022 and development stops and they move on. It is a live product. With thousands of active users, viewers and followers. It's as active as ED on Twitch for example. CIG is treating SC as a live product. Which it is. It has quarterly releases that improve on nearly every facet of the game. People keep coming back and playing it more than ever before.

Game development means moving parts. Especially when you are building your game while running it on live servers. People are always playing it. You can't shut down live and develop for two years and appear with new stuff. The game would die. Now with the quarterly releases its the other way around. More and more people are coming because there is cool stuff every 3 months.

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Latest Around the Verse showing ArcCorp Proc City Gen WhiteBox, MicroTech Vegetation RnD and Female Characters for the 3.5 release in Q1 2019.

[video=youtube;5IIs0djWs9U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IIs0djWs9U[/video]
 
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So the entire game must wait until another department finishes work on a gameplay mechanic?
No. The entire game must wait until you know what you want to produce — until you can actually define the requirements and boundaries you have to work within.

They have 500 devs.
That is a big part of the problem. They're overstaffed by somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 percent.

I don't understand how updating and improving every component is wasted effort?
Because they still don't know if, how, or even where the component will fit. They don't know what they're updating towards. They don't know actually counts as an “improvement” yet. So they will end up having to update and improve it again in the future to match some new current state of affairs, never locking anything down.

Game development means moving parts.

Game development means moving towards a clear goal. As you iterate towards that goal, some parts may move at any given point, but you keep some fixed. You move to lock things down. Cart-before-the-horse and premature optimisation are anti-patterns for a reason (and then there's scope creep, bike shedding, over-engineering, and half a dozen more that CIG are wallowing in).
 
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No. The entire game must wait until you know what you want to produce — until you can actually define the requirements and boundaries you have to work within.

They clearly know what they are producing. How have they been doing it until now? They want to build a space MMO with endless possibilities and they broke it down to the core necessities of what would lead to a sandbox MMO and are executing it.

That is a big part of the problem. They're overstaffed by somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 percent.

So they should have stayed small and pocketed all the crowdfunding? Instead of delivering production that is more equal to the funding received by scaling up? Businesses tend to grow when there is clear financial demand for their services. CIG grew because people want Star Citizen. Them closing the doors would have made them a basic space game instead of what they are achieving now.

Because they still don't know if, how, or even where the component will fit. They don't know what they're updating towards. They don't know actually counts as an “improvement” yet. So they will end up having to update and improve it again in the future to match some new current state of affairs, never locking anything down.

Components fit? They are updating towards clear objectives outlined every week and month. Improvements are welcomed by players and features are getting locked down. Several features in SC are pretty locked with polish being done on them.

Game development means moving towards a clear goal. As you iterate towards that goal, some parts may move at any given point, but you keep some fixed. You move to lock things down. Cart-before-the-horse and premature optimisation are anti-patterns for a reason (and then there's scope creep, bike shedding, over-engineering, and half a dozen more that CIG are wallowing in).

Do you know how much iteration and changing paths are in gamedev? You think you got it one week and the next things change. The goal is grand and distant and the road is filled with many milestones. Nothing is set in stone as you expect and the goal is never too clear. Most of the plans that you make fail in practice and after getting feedback. So you go back to the drawing board. SC is no different. Many things they added were improved because of this. Design and goals is one thing. Implementation is another.

Plans are important but they never stay the same. Planning however is key because each time the dynamic environment of software dev comes with a huge blocker at you. You have to go back to the planning board and adapt. Figure out solutions towards your final destination. SC is just really complicated due to it being a combination of several genres and being multiplayer. They are going the longer and tougher road and after watching the impressions of new SC players I think they are going the right way.
 
They clearly know what they are producing. How have they been doing it until now?
Haphazardly. Following the latest flash of inspiration desire to copy that hit Chris while watching some new (or ancient) trailer or movie or whatever.

They have yet to actually present the larger picture; the way systems will work together; the way in which different mechanics will gel into coherent dynamics (or indeed how the mechanics themselves will be made coherent); the way in which dynamics will deliver different aesthetics. All they have are a handful of “wouldn't it be cool if…” vignettes without any cohesion or linkage.

So they should have stayed small and pocketed all the crowdfunding?
No, they should have stayed small and spend the crowdfunding on a focused effort towards a clearly defined goal. The first part of that effort should have been to actually define the goal itself.

Components fit? They are updating towards clear objectives outlined every week and month.
…and those objectives are only ever intrinsic to the components themselves, not the larger whole.

Do you know how much iteration and changing paths are in gamedev?
Yes.

That's exactly why you lock things down. So that you can iterate and, eventually, change paths rather than tread the same ground over and over and over again. So that you avoid all those anti-patterns where you get stuck in constant revision loops that never actually move forward to any completed state. So that you don't have to revisit one component to fit another because you worked on both at once and changed the first so that it would fit with the second, but also changed the second so the first still does not fit.
 
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So there is one way? I rather have the consumer own the product by willingly paying in earlier (ie crowdfunding) than traditional investors owning the majority control of the company and always seeking return on profit. Additionally, wouldn't be easy saying incompetent to the hundreds of talented devs at CIG to their face. Because they are very competent. You can have a look on their LinkedIn profiles if you would like.

Well first off, you completely misrepresented what I said, choosing to ignore the fact that I pointed out that you need to be competent and capable WITH A FIRM GRASP OF WHAT IS AND ISN'T WITHIN YOUR ABILITIES, but yeah, whatever.

It doesn't matter how competent their team is because the other problem that they have is that Chris Roberts is the classic, hyper enthusiastic developer/designer who jumps from one new shiny thing to the next, leaving a trail of half baked crap in their wake and he's the guy who's calling the shots and telling the other devs what to work on. That's why SC is a garbled collection of half baked features and not a solid foundation on which they can build.
 
The web store.

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Wow, you guys still commenting on this perpetually-developing diarrhea of a...of a....what is it, a tech demo? Pre-alpha shareware?
 
Youtuber Law made a video explaining his opinions.

[video=youtube_share;desAqe9xlAE]https://youtu.be/desAqe9xlAE[/video]
 
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