the FSS, watching paint dry....

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I still love it! Just got promoted from Ranger to Elite in one go and I find it accelerates my way of exploring tremendously. I wouldn't fall into the trap though to do a full system scan on every system I pass. Some may enjoy this but most will perceive this as a massive grind after a while. I can very well imagine though other explorers with different styles that are much less happy with the new scanner... This time I'm on the sunny side I guess :)

I'm staying in explored space near the bubble for now, still completing every system & picking up a few first discovered moons & distant binaries. I found a few systems with brain trees, something I never found before 3.3, ticked another codex box on fumeroles too, one of the silicate vapour variants IIRC.

In explored space I'm happy enough to find a spot to pull up in relative safety & complete the scan away from the main star & system entry point.

My scanning approach is usually different near the bubble though, I'll tag anything not already grabbed for the sake of it & the FSS scanner screen allows me to do that more quickly and in relative safety. Mostly I'm using it as a side-earner and tagging/codex box ticking exercise. I did a wing delivery mission yesterday in my T-9 and using the visited stars filter took a different route for each run. The mission was worth 10m, I made about 12m just from FSSing all the things in every system. No DSS installed, just using the built in tool when I had the opportunity.
 
I still love it! Just got promoted from Ranger to Elite in one go and I find it accelerates my way of exploring tremendously. I wouldn't fall into the trap though to do a full system scan on every system I pass. Some may enjoy this but most will perceive this as a massive grind after a while. I can very well imagine though other explorers with different styles that are much less happy with the new scanner... This time I'm on the sunny side I guess :)

And they said ​the ADS was OP...
 
There is however a difference between the ceiling of the bubble and the ceiling of Beagle Point, same goes for the skybox and route plotting plus extremely heavy stars (O-type, supergiants and wolf-rayyets) are much more common close to the core than the rest of the galaxy. The fact that you only addressed one of the dozens of examples Ziggy listed shows you haven't gone too far or you are being willfully ignorant.

Or, an alternative explanation: you havent understood my point (could be I explained it poorly). :) As for the ad-hominem: my 'most difficult' trip was +-15.000 LY directly south, so away from Colonia. That put the location cursor 'off the map', and it was a bit like mountaineering. I found and marked systems as 'camps' when they had all mats needed for synthesis. I'd then try a route, and if I got stuck without being able to 'climb further' I head back to the nearest camp, find more mats and try a different route. It was actually quite fun.

But my point is that I had to make that fun myself. I knew FD put absolutely nothing there. There wasn't a reasonable RP reason behind being there either. I wasn't being awarded for it, there were no missions asking me to go there, nothing. And that is in sharp contrast with 'short-range exploration', where you find all kinds of stuff and are rewarded in numerous ways, while being more diverse and rewarding gameplay to boot. Btw, I didn't adress just one, I adressed the first four of Ziggy's examples and stopped when his next example was an identical station with identical services, but in a different location. If that makes it to Ziggy's list of awesome finds after years and 1.3b income in explo scans it kinda supports my point: FD hasnt invested a lot in deep-space exploration, and that becomes even more obvious when you compare it with their efforts in a +-1500LY radius around the bubble.

This topic has become a personal thing. I spend a fair bit of time working out a proposal that would fix a lot of issues for many. It got seven responses, only two from people who post in this topic a fair bit (Zadian and Drew). The rest here simply isn't interested in discussing anything constructively, but is just attacking of anything vaguely perceived as 'pro FSS'. Its being argumentative for the sake of it. So if the 'key' people here have zero interest in making any effort to discuss possible changes in a constructive way, and are only here to disagree with everyone about everything (even something as obvious as 'FD spend a lot of time on stuff to find near the bubble, and the FSS works for doing just that') than I dont see the point of any of this beyond some spleen venting. Which is cool, but you lot can find someone else to hurl insults at during christmas. :)
 
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Game was slot mechanics, its now scratch cards.

As i have stated, i will compromise, just don't make me park up to peek at the system, data... still don't think anyone has explain why its a good decision for game play.

The blob game is a change, sometimes people see a change as an improvement, Personal preference,i find it silly. I was even more shocked when i saw you could check for POI without having to fly to a planet...lol but at lest that's a choice. a.k.a , sit and scan, or fly to the planet and prob, and get tag.

On one hand, it will uncover more stuff, move the game story along. On the other hand, its has cheapened discoveries. Can only hope there will/is more to find that wont be handed to us on a plate. and again, personal preference of you want it to be hard work to find, or like to just sit in on location and scratch come cards.

the argument of which is 'god mode' make no sence.

-The old system of honk showed the system and visual (no tags), then you had to fly to the planets, scan to get material data (Tag), and then eye ball for POI.
-The new system, you honk, then have the mini game (Tags), have all the visuals and materials.. then you can POI scan from one location or probe (Second tag).

one system main effort was flying to a planet
the other system main effort is, pointing at blobs and maybe waiting for the scanner if you wanna POI without probing.

Cant see how anyone can argue one is more 'God mode' than the other, they are just different.
 
So if the 'key' people here have zero interest in making any effort to discuss possible changes in a constructive way, and are only here to disagree with everyone about everything (even something as obvious as 'FD spend a lot of time on stuff to find near the bubble, and the FSS works for doing just that') than I dont see the point of any of this beyond some spleen venting. Which is cool, but you lot can find someone else to hurl insults at during christmas. :)

Personally I am disappointed that more do not take on board the simple premise that having the old discovery process remain in the game would not have impacted on those that choose not to fit one of the old modules in any way.

There is no requirement for black bodies or any kind of reduced functionality, and certainly there is no compromise solution which would do anything other than placate those that are offended by the ongoing presence of the modules in the game. Your idea was less suitable than Old Ducks, which I did comment on and I have no interest in either.

If it helps you feel any better about your ideas lack of traction I recently posted a suggestion that received no response at all despite having no downside to any player and not touching on any existing criticism. Welcome to the world of suggestion threads ;) Have a rep for effort, I game old Duck one.


ETA I agree the insults of both player styles and game mechanics add nothing to the conversation and try to avoid this myself.
 
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sollisb

Banned
Wow, I come back to see all this ridiculous FUD about RNG.

Since when is fog-of-war RNG? Uncertainty and RNG are two completely different things. Do you seriously not know the difference? <face-palm>

Firstly, I doubt you have any idea about 'fog-of-war' outside of gaming. But we'll go along with your premise for a laugh.

In your game world, fog of war relates to areas unseen or unexplored. The player makes an educated guess as to where to go next or simply randomly picks a direction or action. Notice the 'random' in there. Uncertainty is state of not knowing what the result will be of the guesstimated or random action. In either case, the board or play area will be revealed. Let's take an example; To make my decision a guesstimate or a complete random on, I as the player, evaluate the knowns and the unknown. If I go west there may be a mob. Ok, From experience, what kind of mob, how difficult a mob? In normal game universe, there evaluations can be guesstimated to a pretty high degree based on previous events or action or both. Frontier don't do 'normal' they randomly create the mov based on nothing more then you moved. Further, they then randomly create it's armour and stats.

Most players expect that at a certain stage, the mobs will have a limited stat range and so, give a basis of equality for the upcoming fight. By making the entire thing random, they cut down on code and dev time, but produce a complete random mob, or none at all. The mob may or may not be in the level range of the player. And this form of randomness regurgitates throughout their development process. Cheap mechanics to save money.

Most other MMO are based around exponential curves. mobs are created within a range of the players abilities and stats. Given that Elite is a multiplayer universe, they should have created certain zones that players know are below or above their level/ship/abilities. But again, due the nature of their ad-hoc design of the game, that cannot be done. Instead of thinking the game world through, they based everything on 'procedural generation' and a BGS. Both of those, should have been built after the foundation, that being the 'how the game will work'. By not doing that, they were forcing the players and worse, themselves into a disjointed, unbalanced game world. One from which they cannot escape. They further exacerbated that, by adding Horizons engineers. That created a game world that made the players almost invincible to the mobs. To combat that, and their lack of any decent AI, the added engineering to mobs, and all of it random. That then left the playing field completely whacko. We have some players using engineering and others who don't even have horizons, having to compete against engineered mobs. They they [frontier] discovered that in addition to the weak AI, players could still beat the mobs. So lacking any other better ideas, they started breaking the game they had created to compensate. Weapons became ineffective and module damage was removed. The AI became dumber while the load outs became stronger. And this is across the board. It's a bit like a player in WestFall being interdicted by mobs from Burning Steppes.

Frontier simply do not know how to build an MMO. For sure, they can build a game world that is graphically astounding, and add to it pretty icons, but underneath all the makeup is a hag. It's ugly, it's creaking, it can barely move for all the wrinkles in its design.

And the problem they [frontier] face is they cannot go back, so they have to keep adding the makeup.

Random has its uses. But those uses should be limited and used sparingly. The player at any given time should be able to compete but have a range of risks. A player buying the game at Christmas this year, and getting not their Sidewinder has no noobie areas. They see mining is a thing, and off they go to mine and earn credits to buy their flashy Anaconda. And mining makes that easy (not complaining), but, as soon as they leave the ring with their precious diamonds, they get an Elite mob shoved up their bottom.

Fog Of War, relates to the dust and dirt created by artillery shelling and the dense fog it created. One which soldier had to run through from heir fox-holes, to engage the enemy. Amidst the artillery pounding and the whizzing bullets they charged, into something they could not see, so they fired blindly and hoped. If fog-of-war is to be used in ration to anything Frontier, it is best suited to their design approach. They ran in blindly and are still firing, hoping to hit something.
 
Now that it’s been a few weeks, I feel most of us are getting a sense of how the new mechanics are. Aside from bugs I really like most of the new stuff. Fss scanner is now useful and can be used in a number of ways. Awesome. Mining is profitable and also can be done in a number of ways. Core mining Void opals is for me both the most fun and profitable. Good stuff all round. Hopefully they can fix those CZs soon.
 
The new system is going to stay, so the only question is what if any concessions could be made to the old system. I suspect solutions would involve allowing some of the instant visual advantages of the original method but with some marked downsides.

So I'd allow engineering of the new FSS so it can display planets in the old way, but only out to relatively small distances (even at grade 5)

The downside to this would be something like an increase in scan time, an increase in module weight, an inability to resolve planets below a certain size or perhaps so it only shows the planet image but none of the scanning details. Payouts could/would be reduced accordingly if that's all you chose to do.

This would cater somewhat to the old way, allowing people to peek before deciding if they're interested, whilst leaving the vast majority of the new system intact and giving those using it the specific advantages it brings and none of the engineered downsides of the alternative.
 
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… Payouts could/would be reduced accordingly.

The payout of the honk are the same in the new system. The ADS honk still exists btw, it just doesn't show the system map anymore.

The FSS is basically the old ADS and the DSS combined - while not showing objects on the system map until they are detailed surface scanned.
Jump into an undiscovered system and honk (no need to go into the FSS screen for that) and you will get the same payout as before by using the ADS.

If the FSS would show the system map after the initial honk it would make almost no difference in gameplay. Players would still have the advantage of not having to fly to objects to surface scan them. They would still get the information if a surface POI is on an object.
Before somebody comes with "cherry picking" - that is easier and faster with the FSS. Place the frequency selector on the desired object type and then search for the corresponding blue blob without having to move.

It's rather strange that the "compromise" for having a symbolic system map always seems to be to make the ADS even worse compared to the FSS even if the FSS is already more advantageous when it comes to profit/time.
 
Sorry, I'll go back and re-read all 93 pages of people crying about the oblivion of instant-gratification-slot-machines-in-between-jumping right now [haha]


Because the FSS isn't cherry picker heaven? You're talking out of your backside. There is no instant gratification with the ADS and the info is minimal. I was someone who was only interested in landable HMC's and rockies/volcanics in certain temperature ranges. You don't have any idea of the amount junk I've now got to scan down with the blob game to find the few planets that are worth investigating. The infinite God probes are completely OP and a ridiculous inclusion. Making persistant POI show up on the scanner would've been enough for me as it's actually exploring and not surveying.
 
While your tongue may be firmly planetd in cheek, I'd like to address what you said anyway.

You've said this type of thing many times.

For the record, each time you've said it, my thinking is that even the players who apparently like the FSS obviously can't stand its pan-as-slow-as-possible mechanic, because they are are finding ways to avoid it.

That's the funny thing about the things I like in this game. They're all parts of the game where my goal is to minimize my time spent using them. There's a reason for this: minimizing my time requires some degree of knowledge and skill, an amount of mastery at aspects of this game. I find that kind of thing fun.

There's an additional aspect to the things I like in this game: no amount of upgrading modules or (edit) engineering can speed up the process. That means that unlike other aspects of this game, I can't substitute time spent grinding for skill.

I have so little time to sit at home and play games these days[1]. Which is why every second is precious to me, and I want to spend it having fun, not grinding. Which is why every second I save through skill becomes twice as valuable. Not only did I have fun saving that second, but I can spend it on other things I enjoy.

YMMV

I applaud you for trying to mentally assess the FSS output as you do the slow-pan. I applaud you for avoiding the arcade-ish tune and zoom line-em-up lock-picking frenzy. Apparently it is avoidable after all by a few mental gymnastics, for some edge cases like binary gas giants.

It's not just binary gas giants: The list of Interesting Things(tm) candidates I can spot via the FSS output includes, but is not necessarily limited to:
  • Eclipses
  • Binary+ worlds of any type
  • Roche worlds
  • Yavin IVs
  • Yavin IV terraforming candidates
  • terraforming candidates in general
  • Planets with moons of the same planetary type
  • Geological POIs (or more accurately, conditions where they're likely to form)

I don't have enough data yet to speed up the detection of the following:
  • Biological POIs
  • Guardian Sites
  • Thargoid Sites
  • Human Sites

Finally, there's one thing that I can't detect via the FSS: unusually colored gas giants.

Well.. I can't have everything. :p

And yes, my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek as I say that. I wish I could use mental gymnastics too, to eliminate the huge glaring FSS UI/UX problem called verisimilitude.

As I've said earlier in this thread, some type of augmented reality exists in the Elite: Dangerous setting. The FSS is simply one of them, so it doesn't strain my sense of verisimilitude, unlike a certain something that will remain nameless.

YMMV
_____________________
[1] One of the ironies of my life at this time is that as my time to play games decreases, my ability to post on a game's forum increases, thanks to mobile devices. Way, way back in my college years, when 14.4 modems were the epitome of speed, I had to choose between playing the game or posting on the forum. These days, if I'm at work on break, sitting at in a doctor's waiting room, or waiting for someone to finish their soccer practice, I can whip out my phone or iPad and hop on the forums.
 
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The payout of the honk are the same in the new system. The ADS honk still exists btw, it just doesn't show the system map anymore.

The FSS is basically the old ADS and the DSS combined - while not showing objects on the system map until they are detailed surface scanned.
Jump into an undiscovered system and honk (no need to go into the FSS screen for that) and you will get the same payout as before by using the ADS.

If the FSS would show the system map after the initial honk it would make almost no difference in gameplay. Players would still have the advantage of not having to fly to objects to surface scan them. They would still get the information if a surface POI is on an object.
Before somebody comes with "cherry picking" - that is easier and faster with the FSS. Place the frequency selector on the desired object type and then search for the corresponding blue blob without having to move.

It's rather strange that the "compromise" for having a symbolic system map always seems to be to make the ADS even worse compared to the FSS even if the FSS is already more advantageous when it comes to profit/time.

Im a fan of the new system. I think it's great - just trying to find some middle ground. I personally wouldn't want the inst-honk map available without some downsides. The new system is staying imo, so the only likely changes (if any) are to involve a reintroduced way of doing it in the old style with compromise.
 
The payout of the honk are the same in the new system. The ADS honk still exists btw, it just doesn't show the system map anymore.

The FSS is basically the old ADS and the DSS combined - while not showing objects on the system map until they are detailed surface scanned.
Jump into an undiscovered system and honk (no need to go into the FSS screen for that) and you will get the same payout as before by using the ADS.

If the FSS would show the system map after the initial honk it would make almost no difference in gameplay. Players would still have the advantage of not having to fly to objects to surface scan them. They would still get the information if a surface POI is on an object.
Before somebody comes with "cherry picking" - that is easier and faster with the FSS. Place the frequency selector on the desired object type and then search for the corresponding blue blob without having to move.

It's rather strange that the "compromise" for having a symbolic system map always seems to be to make the ADS even worse compared to the FSS even if the FSS is already more advantageous when it comes to profit/time.

If the FSS honk populated the nav panel, provided targetable POIs on the HUD and gave the same info on the sysmap as the old ADS did I'd be happy with that. I'd be able to use that extra module slot that would otherwise have been occupied by an ADS module too.
 
There is however a difference between the ceiling of the bubble and the ceiling of Beagle Point, same goes for the skybox and route plotting plus extremely heavy stars (O-type, supergiants and wolf-rayyets) are much more common close to the core than the rest of the galaxy. The fact that you only addressed one of the dozens of examples Ziggy listed shows you haven't gone too far or you are being willfully ignorant.
But Flowey, I didn't get a pay out or a decal or a mention in the Galnet for that. Surely that's all that counts? Frontier has created a 400 bil galaxy, but they don't want us to investigate it. They want us within 1,500 LYs from the Bubble. Which is why the neutron highway for instance doesn't exist. Which is also why Raxxxxxxla doesn't exist.

No, real explorers wait until someone found a handplaced alien leisure center, posts it on the forum and we can all go an take holiday pictures. I'm so glad we established early on I'm not a real explorer :)

As someone who really understands exploration, and doesn't like people insulting other people's playstyles or spleen venting put it: all I am doing is looking for a different coloured ball. And all the thousands of faux explorers going on DWE2 means there's less appeal for it. After all, all they're doing is pressing 'j' a couple of thousand times more than a local trip and they're guaranteed to find nothing. All that is old outdated exploration.

We're talking to a new generation here, and as the outdated old school ones, we have to step aside and make room.
 
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… I personally wouldn't want the inst-honk map available without some downsides. …

The thing is, the old system map after ADS honk already has downsides compared to the FSS system map.
It showed less information. It took much longer to get the same level of information (requiring to fly to the objects).
The FSS shows after the initial honk if any "valuable" object is within the system.

The only thing the FSS doesn't provide faster is that symbolic system map with reduced information the ADS showed.

For me a possible compromise would be to have an FSS blue blob overlay in the HUD (maybe with the option to filter out USSs) and then allow the use of the frequency selector from the standard cockpit view and replacing the zoom to scan with flying closer to the object.
This would allow me to fly around in my spaceship. I would go to the objects anyway to map them, so no real impact from having to fly there.
Others could keep using the standard FSS and not having to fly to objects if they don't want to.
 
But Flowey, I didn't get a pay out or a decal or a mention in the Galnet for that. Surely that's all that counts?
Whether it counts or not is something you have to decide for yourself. Just pointing out one aspect has in-game rewards and purpose designed around it, and other parts do not.

We're talking to a new generation here, and as the outdated old school ones, we have to step aside and make room.
We've been here since launch as well, so you can drop that non-argument too. Noone is arguing you have to step aside either, do as you please.
 
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For me a possible compromise would be to have an FSS blue blob overlay in the HUD (maybe with the option to filter out USSs) and then allow the use of the frequency selector from the standard cockpit view and replacing the zoom to scan with flying closer to the object.
This would allow me to fly around in my spaceship. I would go to the objects anyway to map them, so no real impact from having to fly there.
Others could keep using the standard FSS and not having to fly to objects if they don't want to.

Cant see many objections to it either. :)
 
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If the FSS honk populated the nav panel, provided targetable POIs on the HUD and gave the same info on the sysmap as the old ADS did I'd be happy with that. I'd be able to use that extra module slot that would otherwise have been occupied by an ADS module too.

Personally, I tried exploring with the old ADS using the "nav panel only" method, and while I managed to "lie back and think of England" my way to 5000 light years out, that was only thanks to the extreme jump range of my ship at the time, as opposed to finding such mechanism engaging in the long term.

As far as discovery game play is concerned, it was just as bad as the instant system map. If I can target it, then it's been discovered. If the honk is what made the planet targetable, then I didn't discover it. That is one of the reasons why I enjoy exploring using the FSS: I can actually discover things, rather than hold down a button and have things discovered for me.

Again, I have no problem adding such functionality as an optional module, but adding it to the FSS? That would ruin what I enjoy about the FSS in the first place: actively changing the unknown into the known.
 
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