It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.

[Powderpanic]

So in an encounter where the explorer risks his rebuy and data and the attacker risks nothing, you think the attacker should have the chance of a reward as well?

Honestly, it sounds like a pretty awesome gaming mechanic.

I think really, it should be expanded on to include high-grade mats.

The treatment of NPC deaths and player deaths is very unfair on the PVP player.

Powderpanic
The Voice of Griefing

 

[Jukelo]

You identify loss as "minor".

For a new player, a 20-40 hour player, an explorer after hundreds of hours, these losses are not minor. They represent time, effort, energy invested in a leisure activity.

The threat of dying in this game is VASTLY greater from a pvp interaction than all pve interactions.

FDEV is using the desire for social interaction to expose players to greater progression reset risk. That is the current game design.

In my opinion, that's kind of Facebook/Twitter creepy.

All you're doing is keep repeating the same thing over and over, without substanciating your claims, without actually answering or addressing the points made.

So this is the last time I ask this:

1) why would Frontier want to slow down your progress when they have otherwise made every effort to speed it up to crazy rates (no money sinks to speak of, activities that pay several times over your rebuy's worth in about one hour) and when it would actually hurt their recurring paintjob sales?

2) if we established in 1) that Frontier is indeed trying to slow you down, why would they rely on the unlikely scenario of PvP death, which targets only a portion of the playerbase (the portion that wants social interactions in Open, you see in this very thread not everybody is interested in that), when they could be either adjusting your rate of progress at the source (that is reducing the payouts -even though they have done the opposite for the past 4 years) or making the environment more dangerous, and therefore be reaching the whole playerbase?

What is it exactly about PVE players in Open that makes them such a target for Frontier in your mind?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Just fight back.

Nah - no interest in PvP, at all - and not much in combat in general.

 

[Morbad]

My plea to FDEV is that they reconsider the heavy handed rebuy and character losses for PVP deaths.

Far from being a heavy handed, punishing, consequence, Elite: Dangerous' rebuy system is an extremely lenient and forgiving way to avoid most rational consequences of ship destruction. Your CMDR never dies, and you only need to have 5% of the value of your vessel on hand to get a band new, fully equipped, replacement instantly conjured up from nothingness and returned to your control.

The rebuy system in ED is like the saving throw in D&D...it allows characters to perform almost incomprehensibly reckless activities and there still be a character to play.

My argument is about FDEV leveraging the desire for non-pvp social interaction to encourage players into open where they will be killed via PVP.

That's really up to the player.

Non-hostile interactions are mostly what I'm in Open for and this facilitated by taking the potential for hostile actions into account.

For a new player, a 20-40 hour player, an explorer after hundreds of hours, these losses are not minor. They represent time, effort, energy invested in a leisure activity.

The new player doesn't have much to lose unless they've allowed the assets invested in their current ship to far outstrip their ability.

Losing hundreds of hours worth of exploration data can be properly punishing, but the odds of this occurring are miniscule for anyone with the experience to have cause to anticipate success.

The threat of dying in this game is VASTLY greater from a pvp interaction than all pve interactions.

That's because the PvE game is virtually risk free, which is a glaring problem to be fixed, not something to be duplicated in PvP.

 

[voidwalker]

You identify loss as "minor".

For a new player, a 20-40 hour player, an explorer after hundreds of hours, these losses are not minor. They represent time, effort, energy invested in a leisure activity.

The threat of dying in this game is VASTLY greater from a pvp interaction than all pve interactions.

FDEV is using the desire for social interaction to expose players to greater progression reset risk. That is the current game design.

In my opinion, that's kind of Facebook/Twitter creepy.

Did you know that you have it within your power to mitigate that risk of loss all by yourself? It's all about fitting your ship appropriately, and learning techniques to escape.

I'm getting really sick and tired of this 'hold my hand' attitude, especially when the game gives you so many opportunities to defend yourself, even if they aren't direct combat. I've been doing exploration since there's been exploration, and I've been ganked a grand total of twice, out of a good 20+ (at least, I lost count) attempts playing exclusively in open.

I remember when NPCs in this game were sometimes just as dangerous as players, and they got nerfed into oblivion because everyone wanted their hands held and noses wiped for them. Well, here I am to say, I'm okay with an open PVE mode, with the following concessions: the return of extremely deadly npcs that interdict you in that mode just to try to kill you, just like they used to, because that's what space marauders do, and also, the removal of solo and PG because you won't need those anymore. Hell, even even go you one better and say that as long as PVE Open has these concessions, you can even keep your effect on the BGS and PP.

The Elite we have right now is a shadow of its former self, where combat difficulty is concerned. The reason for that is the risk the players pose. That's how the game has actually been designed, as easy, so that the players can be provide the risk if they so choose to be the villains. Of course there is vastly greater risk from a PVP interaction, because there is none without the players in the game's current state. And literally everything is vastly greater than zero.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Not everyone enjoys PvP, just as not everyone enjoys combat - in a game where PvP is an optional extra and two of the three paths to Elite rank don't require the player to fire a shot.

What’s still missed and/or glossed over is that PvP is not optional when it is inflicted by another. I count myself among those who do not enjoy PvP. I find it tedious and boring. Which is one of a number of reasons there has been such an outcry for an Open PvE, though I realize the technical difficulties involved here.

There really isn’t a viable solution, as the PG limits and difficulties in managing and maintaining and enforcing whatever rules might be established for PG’s are demanding and nearly impossible to manage and enforce.

iI stay out of Open though for different reasons, namely performance. I suspect an Open PvE environment would suffer the same way, and I’d Avoid it as well.

 

[Arkadi]

Exploring is pretty safe most of the time. The real thrill is returning to the bubble with loads of data. That's where exploration becomes really intersting. In the best case you can get some friends to escort you home in a Private Group. That's what made exploration special to me. The risk of returning home.

Now that space get's more and more colonized - there is more risk of gankers in the middle of no where. It's the game. Fleet-com or Mobius provide a better protected environemen. If there was a checkbox for Private-Group owners to turn "player vs player damage: off" the problem would be solved. People could fly save from gankers in big private groups.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I really don't care how you play, as long as actions that are hostile to a PMF or Powerplay faction are done in open.

No requirement to do so, in a game where other players are an optional part of the game whereas the BGS (Factions, etc.) has always been (and has recently been restated as being) for all players, on all platforms and in all game modes.

We'll see what, if anything, comes of Sandro's Flash Topics on Powerplay....

 

[Robert Maynard]

When Robert Maynard suggests you git gud or go solo, the problem might just be on your end. [yesnod]

Did I say that?

.... or are you twisting my words without quoting them....?

 

[voidwalker]

What’s still missed and/or glossed over is that PvP is not optional when it is inflicted by another. I count myself among those who do not enjoy PvP. I find it tedious and boring. Which is one of a number of reasons there has been such an outcry for an Open PvE, though I realize the technical difficulties involved here.

There really isn’t a viable solution, as the PG limits and difficulties in managing and maintaining and enforcing whatever rules might be established for PG’s are demanding and nearly impossible to manage and enforce.

iI stay out of Open though for different reasons, namely performance. I suspect an Open PvE environment would suffer the same way, and I’d Avoid it as well.

What YOU seem to miss is that you opt-in to PVP by default when you play in open. When you click 'open mode' in the menu, you do so with an understanding of the risk, which is implied consent. And there are no excuses anymore since they make it clear what you're in for on the menu screen now.

 

[Chaparral]

That's where you're wrong, Danny boy.

Elite Dangerous is a shadow of what it once was, but brutality has always been a part of the game.

Player death has always been there.

Skill alone should stand between you and your demise, but that's just too much for some people.

You want it to be easier for you.

The game already has you covered, but you consistently choose to ignore the intelligent options.

When Robert Maynard suggests you git gud or go solo, the problem might just be on your end. [yesnod]

You make me smile Zaphod. I'm in open all the time. You killed me once while I was in an eagle and you were in an FAS with engineered PACs. No complaints here - you did nothing "bad" at all.

My complaints aren't with PVP at all, it is the design by FDEV to suck life out of people that want access to an experience nearly every other mmo offers.

Reducing the "buy in" to pvp isn't going to restrict pvp at all. It will increase the number of "hollow squares" for you.

That is what you want right? More hollow squares - for your gunbelt notches.

That's important to you right? It must be, I think I saw a post of yours that said you had 2300 or something.

I'm not mocking that mechanic for achievement, everyone has their own thing for marking progress.

It's weird how you're trying to imply that I'm afraid or something.

My posts aren't about PVP being bad, or that players should be protected from getting pk'd (they should be exposed to pk).

My posts are about FDEVs mindset, and the costs for pking.

 

[Zaphod Hawke]

Did I say that?

.... or are you twisting my words without quoting them....?

Twisting? Not at all.

But you suggested, albeit indirectly, this very thing.

 

[Morbad]

Reducing the "buy in" to pvp isn't going to restrict pvp at all.

It will make combat even more meaningless.

 

[Chaparral]

Did you know that you have it within your power to mitigate that risk of loss all by yourself? It's all about fitting your ship appropriately, and learning techniques to escape.

I'm getting really sick and tired of this 'hold my hand' attitude, especially when the game gives you so many opportunities to defend yourself, even if they aren't direct combat. I've been doing exploration since there's been exploration, and I've been ganked a grand total of twice, out of a good 20+ (at least, I lost count) attempts playing exclusively in open.

I remember when NPCs in this game were sometimes just as dangerous as players, and they got nerfed into oblivion because everyone wanted their hands held and noses wiped for them. Well, here I am to say, I'm okay with an open PVE mode, with the following concessions: the return of extremely deadly npcs that interdict you in that mode just to try to kill you, just like they used to, because that's what space marauders do, and also, the removal of solo and PG because you won't need those anymore. Hell, even even go you one better and say that as long as PVE Open has these concessions, you can even keep your effect on the BGS and PP.

The Elite we have right now is a shadow of its former self, where combat difficulty is concerned. The reason for that is the risk the players pose. That's how the game has actually been designed, as easy, so that the players can be provide the risk if they so choose to be the villains. Of course there is vastly greater risk from a PVP interaction, because there is none without the players in the game's current state. And literally everything is vastly greater than zero.

I would be totally fine with a buff to npcs. I really like the changes to the new assassination missions, CZs and scenarios.

I'm not asking for a PVE OPEN.

I'm asking for a reduction in penalties in OPEN PVP PKs so that players can enjoy social interaction that nearly every other mmo offers.

It's a big population of players. If you're suggesting the very young, very old, physically impaired, or simply soft players should not have access to social interaction within its framework, that's not healthy for the game in my opinion.

 

[Chaparral]

It will make combat even more meaningless.

Do you want more people to try out fighting, and practice, and fight back?

 

[zeke312]

well... this is all quite pointless. I get that you don't want to die. I get that FD is screwing you by having a game where you can die, and it has consequences.I get that you want to hold hands with friendly commanders and go for long leisurely jaunts through the galaxy.I get you need a participation ribbon. I get that unimpeded progress and prosperity are your birthright. Maybe someday someone will make that game, or even that society, but in either case, this is simply not it.

 

[Morbad]

Do you want more people to try out fighting, and practice, and fight back?

I just want an open-world space travel/trade/combat game that tries for some level of verisimilitude and immersion when depicting it's setting.

If that means being unappealing to those that can't handle in-game consequences, well that's vastly better than the alternative.

 

[Brrokk]

What YOU seem to miss is that you opt-in to PVP by default when you play in open. When you click 'open mode' in the menu, you do so with an understanding of the risk, which is implied consent. And there are no excuses anymore since they make it clear what you're in for on the menu screen now.

True. This is why we need Open-PvE mode.

 

[Saool]

So the PVE community is stuck with the Private Group solution, with the overflow being grist for the mill in Open.

Well that's not really true is it. Going into open is a choice. I've been using three different private groups for DW2.

In my humble opinion, the answer is the same as it has always been: a real crime and punishment system. There needs to be real consequences for crime. Today in ED, there are no significant consequences.

 

[Zaphod Hawke]

You make me smile Zaphod. I'm in open all the time. You killed me once while I was in an eagle and you were in an FAS with engineered PACs. No complaints here - you did nothing "bad" at all.

My complaints aren't with PVP at all, it is the design by FDEV to suck life out of people that want access to an experience nearly every other mmo offers.

Reducing the "buy in" to pvp isn't going to restrict pvp at all. It will increase the number of "hollow squares" for you.

That is what you want right? More hollow squares - for your gunbelt notches.

That's important to you right? It must be, I think I saw a post of yours that said you had 2300 or something.

I'm not mocking that mechanic for achievement, everyone has their own thing for marking progress.

It's weird how you're trying to imply that I'm afraid or something.

My posts aren't about PVP being bad, or that players should be protected from getting pk'd (they should be exposed to pk).

My posts are about FDEVs mindset, and the costs for pking.

And players with attitudes like yours make me just a little nauseous.

It's never enough.

You think a PvP kill rebuy sucks the life out of you?

Try being a PK'er these days.

In a game that was once advertised as a game that allowed you to "just hunt other commanders", it has become quite unpleasant.

Never mind that the game has always had mechanics in place to protect the lawful player.

Lawful and particularly non-pvp oriented lawful players will never see these things.

They all assume that nothing is in place to help you because we defeat these measures so consistently.

You know why we start gitting gud at interdictions?

It's because we're constantly harassed by NPC's.

Every time one of you softies drops into an instance with one of us... WE get interdicted.

Then you complain that you can't escape from us.

It never ends.

You all seem to have this insatiable desire to chip away at the very foundations of a formerly great game.

All because players with this mindset refuse to acknowledge their own failings.