This game needs to impose itself upon the player.

[M00ka]

Good thread and I agree with a lot of the comments. Personally, I would like to see four aspects of the game change:

System Security States: These currently are virtually meaningless. To begin with, if a system is unpopulated, it shouldn't be termed Anarchy, it should be termed Unpopulated. Anarchy should be left to systems that are in an Anarchic state, ie, no central government and no security. High Sec systems should be just that, instant death to anyone who has a bounty, who has notoriety. They should even contemplate entering a High Sec system because they know they would be killed just about immediately. I would go even further and if a system is High Sec and permit locked, then anyone with a bounty or notoriety has that permit withdrawn. And at the other end of the scale, Anarchy systems should be a death trap for anyone who isn't set up for combat, isn't prepared to be pirated. For those who don't want combat, Anarchy systems should be avoided like the plague.

Factions: I am currently fully allied with every faction in my home station. Yet I regularly go to a neighbouring system and blown up ships of those factions. Sure I might lose a minor percentage, but all I have to do is one mission for those factions and all is forgiven. To me this is wrong, especially since there seems to be a civil war amongst these factions every couple of weeks. If I am that well known to these factions, that trusted that they offer me all the high paid missions, they should like it if I work for the opposition. In fact if two factions are at war, and I start supporting one, I should immediately lose my allied status with the other. Yes I know, we are just independent pilots blah blah, but playing both sides just doesn't seem right.

Thargoids: I have only seen one Thargoid ship, never fired on one, never been attacked by one. Yet there are burning stations all around the bit of space I call home. I should be terrified of leaving my station, but the threat of the Thargoid menace is non-existent. Thargoids should be like normal NPCs, not hidden in NHUSSs, I should be able to look on my radar and see a Thargoid ship bearing down on me when in SC. They should be pulling players out of witchspace, they should be present in the game, not as some afterthought. (On a side note, if this ever did eventuate, it would be interesting to see how some players would react. Talking about those that have been telling the community that they have to build their ship to meet the threat (in there case, PvP in Open). Would be interesting to see if they followed their own advice and build their ships for Thargoids - kind of doubt it lol)

Consequences. This is the biggest bugbear I have with the game, there are no consequences for player actions. You can murder dozens of clean ships belonging to a faction that controls a station, yet said station will still allow you to dock with open arms. It just doesn't make sense. And this isn't just about combat and being a naughty commander. If I start to flood a station with a certain commodity, I should expect to see the price I am getting fall, hell I am saturating the market, yet there is no change. A good example is Void Opals. With the amount of tonnage that has been mined, Void Opals should be worthless now, not the most expensive mineral. But nothing changes, it is like reality doesn't exist in certain aspects of the game.

 

[Sylow]

[...]

At the current statos quo (only minor upgrades till late 2020) this unfortunately currently is very unlikely to happen. But i really like your ideas here. That's something the game really could use.

 

[Morbad]

The game encourages "bad guys" to stay clean, and actually punishes "good guys", instead of encouraging bad guys to embrace their notoriety.

That effect probably one of the most plausible aspects of the whole game, even if the mechanisms behind it need some work.

 

[Jmanis]

Factions: I am currently fully allied with every faction in my home station. Yet I regularly go to a neighbouring system and blown up ships of those factions. Sure I might lose a minor percentage, but all I have to do is one mission for those factions and all is forgiven. To me this is wrong, especially since there seems to be a civil war amongst these factions every couple of weeks. If I am that well known to these factions, that trusted that they offer me all the high paid missions, they should like it if I work for the opposition. In fact if two factions are at war, and I start supporting one, I should immediately lose my allied status with the other. Yes I know, we are just independent pilots blah blah, but playing both sides just doesn't seem right.

It's worth noting that resolving CZs is *meant to* cause a decrease in reputation with the opposition. It currently doesn't (i.e it's broken), but I wonder if FD is loathe to fix it because of exactly the reasons I cited in my previous post.

As far as I know, the jury is still out as to whether resolving CZs has a *significant enough* effect to counterbalance the effect of handing in bonds... but I digress slightly. Fighting in wars against a faction should very quickly result in you becoming hostile... were it not for the fact that, in many cases of single-dock systems, you'd eliminate your ability to participate in the war (through handing in bonds) by becoming hostile. That mechanic alone goes against all sanity; reward a player doing an activity well, by preventing them from doing it further.

There's no shortage of solutions to this problem; the front-runner is still during a war, put a warship a-la Thargoid incursions for each faction in the system, where at minimum bonds can be submitted.

 

[Jmanis]

That effect probably one of the most plausible aspects of the whole game, even if the mechanisms behind it need some work.

I find the concept that the most successful, feared pirates will have 0 notoriety completely implausible.

EDIT: I should clarify.... more coming.

I once suggested that, when it came to Factions and specifically opposing them, things were back-to-front, and the best way to oppose a faction had me become allied to them, and that becoming Hostile to a faction does nothing but make life harder to oppose that faction, which is utterly counter-intuitive. The game mechanics have changed slightly since I posted that... but someone suggested "Why doesn't that make sense? Surely a trusted insider should be able to do a significant amount of damage?". Of course, that's valid, but gameplay which supports that *should not* come at the expense of a comparable effect of an antagonist openly opposing them at every turn.

Likewise, I can understand you might be suggesting "The best outlaws are the ones who don't get caught"... but (the word) Notoriety has meaning. Being known as "The scourge of the Federation" should not shut down doors in Imperial space (Currently; it does. I can have Notoriety 10 and a massive superpower bounty with the Federation; despite this I am free to come and go from Imperial space, but the minute I get a 600cr bounty for an accidental assault, I need to clear my 10 Notoriety if I ever want to fix that.).

Conversely, being known as "The Scourge Of the Federation" should open many opportunities compared to a relative unknown who's done a lot of stuff, but stayed off-the-radar entirely. This is what C&P gets entirely wrong at the moment.

 

[Ouberos]

I've been giving Spacer Engineers a go this weekend Vin, I think you'd like it.

It's got space legs, jet packs, flight assist off, mining, engineering, piracy oh and plenty of environmental jeopardy.

I managed to repair a hangar door and get a space ship into the void over the weekend. Took forever. I nearly died several times. Flew into an asteroid with my jet pack when I turned flight assist off. Came close to running out of air many times before I figured out why the O2 machine wasn't working.

It was lots of fun. Mostly because it was new and I was rubbish. I'm getting better though and when Im gud, I think I'll be a Pirate.

Fly Dangerous Something New.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

I've been giving Spacer Engineers a go this weekend Vin, I think you'd like it.

It's got space legs, jet packs, flight assist off, mining, engineering, piracy oh and plenty of environmental jeopardy.

I managed to repair a hangar door and get a space ship into the void over the weekend. Took forever. I nearly died several times. Flew into an asteroid with my jet pack when I turned flight assist off. Came close to running out of air many times before I figured out why the O2 machine wasn't working.

It was lots of fun. Mostly because it was new and I was rubbish. I'm getting better though and when Im gud, I think I'll be a Pirate.

Fly Dangerous Something New.

Thanks, Oubs. I'll have a look at it.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

That effect probably one of the most plausible aspects of the whole game, even if the mechanisms behind it need some work.

Plausible... but is it fun and does it make for good gameplay?

 

[Deleted member 115407]

If I start to flood a station with a certain commodity, I should expect to see the price I am getting fall, hell I am saturating the market, yet there is no change. A good example is Void Opals. With the amount of tonnage that has been mined, Void Opals should be worthless now, not the most expensive mineral. But nothing changes, it is like reality doesn't exist in certain aspects of the game.

^This. Commodity prices do fluctuate, but it takes an act of god. The supply/demand levels and numbers should be reset to actually allow the players to influence markets, both directly and indirectly. Every ton bought or solld should have an effect, every ton delivered via mission, and even other missions should be causing market fluctuations. Moreover, buys/sells at one market should influence price at other local markets, and when demand bottoms out, it should absolutely bottom out. The market should just stop accepting the commodity.

The markets are far too stable at the moment. It doesn't make for very good gameplay as a trader.

 

[Jukelo]

The only valid reason to fight Thargoids is that you want to, because it's fun, because it's the kind of gameplay you enjoy. Those who want to fight them are doing so. Those who don't want to don't have to.

Your argument about fun is beside the point: whatever the game lets you do should be designed to be fun, regardless of how rewarding it is and whether it is forced on you or not. And if every activity is fun to you, how do you decide on what to do? You'll naturally tend towards the ones that are more rewarding (or those you can't skip ofc), because that is how us gamers are wired. You should never have to make a choice between fun and explicit reward, because everything should be fun, and everything should reward the player according to skill and time/effort.

There's only one set of people who aren't happy about this: the people who want other people who don't want to fight Thargoids to be forced into doing it. Really, why should anyone think they have the right to control someone else's gameplay to that degree? I find the whole attitude unpleasant.

You are being disingenuous, please stop misrepresenting others' arguments. We're expressing our dissatisfaction with the game's lack of natural challenge and some nonsensical balance and design decisions that contribute to the game's image as a shallow mess and hurts our enjoyment. Where in this thread are we talking about what others should do? That the game's nature as an MMO would make it likely that any change would have to be global is only tangentially part of the argument.

 

[Tarman]

Ok I'm seeing the sense in these suggestions rather than an overt difficulty setting, as long as the game coding is done well enough to allow those playing as "Fred Blogs, mundane transport INC" to have an easy life. It should be logical and obvious where the dangers are. Not random stuff.

Sounds like you got one of the big points. The galaxy (at least from mine and some other players' perspectives) should operate on deeper and more believable parameters. That allows pilots to still decide for themselves how much trouble to get into, but in a far more understandable and cohesive framing, while creating more gameplay opportunities that aren't just dictated. When the "terrain" is more varied, so too can player-created gameplay exist in more varied forms, because everybody likes something no matter how weird it is.

For more pronounced and deeper security status representation, this is one of the items that could have a potentially large impact on the game as a whole. In theory it should create a better galactic terrain by making the security matter more per system and in-system. Route planning would be a useful skill to avoid or seek out the trouble spots, moneymakers and safe havens for both sides of the law.

There still should totally be things and places that can kill you if you're unlucky (or more likely unwary), but I'd like to see a system that more clearly defines Death Swamp from Safetown and let people sort it out from there. I think pilots should have a choice to be safe, rather than a right. That makes playing safe a gameplay avenue, instead of a punishment or a default setting. There's lots of gameplay for Elite in playing it safe if it's done right.

 

[Blackcompany]

It already forces the toxic wasteland that is engineers on players. I feel that is enough of git gud imposed on vanilla players.

The rngineers literally drove me to uninstall. I loved flying my ship. But tuning pve to require that wait walked, rng cesspit was a step too far.

 

[Schmack]

In GTA V I can kill a thousand cops, drive three blocks, hide and then just walk into a police station and they just look at me. GTA V is a great game. This is how games are. They wouldn't have very many people playing it if the learning curve was so steep that you couldn't maintain a ship without dying as you exit your first station. You want it to be harder when you're unlocked everything and you've engineered your ship to the max. Maybe people should stop pushing the easy button every chance they get if they're going to complain about how easy everything is. Some people call it content but when the developers offer players an easier path by completing X number of tasks, it seems a large number of people complete those tasks to make the path easier.

Because everyone is playing in the same universe, in the same instance basically, people can't have graduated difficulty levels. As difficult as it is for a brand new player in a Sidewinder to exit the station and begin their careers and whichever path they choose, it will be that easy for the rest of their experience - they will just learn new ships and eventually new careers.

We don't start off with billions of credits and every ship we could want with all G5 upgraded modules and flying ability. We don't start off with knowledge of how to make money or where to go and when. We don't start off with knowledge of each ship's weaknesses and strengths, what weapon loadouts are best for what type of gameplay and where to get those weapons. We don't start off with understanding and knowledge of third-party tools. All of this makes the game easier as we acquire these things.

If you want the game to be harder don't make it easier on yourself by pushing the Easy Button.

If someone comes here and has not done any engineering on modules and they haven't built billions of credits using third-party tools or watched YouTube videos to find out how to do this or that and they complain that the game is too easy, well they may have a point.

I created a second account and in less than 24 hours I was Elite in trade and had over a billion credits. I had all of the large ships I wanted and was on my way to Colonia. I could not have done that as a new player because I didn't have all the experience and information that I had gleaned over the years by using the above-listed tools and resources to push my own Easy Button.

 

[Krash]

Once a player reaches "elite", the safeties should come off. Elites should be able to burn up in the sun or a planet or with all the all the other stupid moves we are protected from. We should not be able to safely fly up to a black hole and take selfies. Super engineered NPCs should be spawned, etc. take off the gloves. I stack a bunch of pirate assassination missions because getting jumped by 3-4 elite vettes is FUN.

 

[Dirtbird]

This game needs to progress towards having a believable universe, not a set of loosely connected mini-games. Great points by a number of people. I am completely with having a dangerous universe - black holes that crush or spaghettify your ship as you approach too close, the intense magnetic fields of neutron stars killing your in-flight electronics if you're too close, collisions that make sense (they should be avoided, and used with caution tactically) and other stuff like that. It is a believable universe that we have high security systems with effective police everywhere. At anarchies, everyone there is well armed, cut-throat and willing to take what you have. Exploding ships should leave behind some of their cargo like the original Elite.

I love the idea that if you don't want to live dangerously, you can just fly and trade between high and medium security stations. Hardly anyone will bother you. And if you want to make a name for yourself, you take the risk. If you want to explore danherous stellar phenomena, you take the risk. And it should be rewarded.

All the stuff with trade and factions too, I wish that were so in this game. It always felt stupid to me that you can be an Admiral-King in both opposing superpowers.
How would you model that in game anyway?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If I start to flood a station with a certain commodity, I should expect to see the price I am getting fall, hell I am saturating the market, yet there is no change.

It does make a difference - just not enough of one to matter. Increasing that effect and decreasing the BGS state magnitude effect could give more interesting trading by making it necessary to go where other people aren't.

It always felt stupid to me that you can be an Admiral-King in both opposing superpowers. How would you model that in game anyway?

In FFE, despite the superpowers being more openly hostile to each other, INRA members conventionally held equal rank in both. So there is precedent there. In 3305 when the superpowers are barely opposed to each other at all? Why not open it up to everyone...

The only valid reason to fight Thargoids is that you want to, because it's fun, because it's the kind of gameplay you enjoy. Those who want to fight them are doing so. Those who don't want to don't have to.

There are degrees of optional, though.

Currently, Thargoids are basically confined to designated combat zones. You can be in a system that's under attack, one station down, another falling soon ... and you still won't see them if you don't engage. Having them attack anyone who entered the system wouldn't make it any less practical for people to avoid them if they weren't interested - it's a big bubble and they're not attacking most of it - but would make the systems they are attacking feel more attacked.

At the moment most of the game's events require the player to make a direct conscious choice to interact with that event. It's also possible for events to come and interact with the player based on choices the player made - for example, if you choose to carry cargo as a trader, this attracts pirates, despite you never having specifically chosen to fight pirates. This is not an imposition on the players who want to haul boxes back and forth without combat - it's a basic bit of the design of the game going back to the original Elite.

This, I think, is what vindelanos is getting at - actions should happen in the game on a basis more than "I want to do A." - "Okay, A happens.". We can discuss how the game difficulty is calibrated, but almost every game works on the basis of "I want to do A." - "Okay, B and C happen." - "I deal with those" - "Now you get A."

 

[RamirezKurita]

The only valid reason to fight Thargoids is that you want to, because it's fun, because it's the kind of gameplay you enjoy. Those who want to fight them are doing so. Those who don't want to don't have to.

There's only one set of people who aren't happy about this: the people who want other people who don't want to fight Thargoids to be forced into doing it. Really, why should anyone think they have the right to control someone else's gameplay to that degree? I find the whole attitude unpleasant.

Do what you want to do and don't worry about it if other players make different choices.

Personally, I don't much care for Thargoid combat myself. The real issue isn't about forcing players into a certain activity, but to have it at very least factor into their decisions. Even if Thargoids were extremely hostile and actively hunted down ships wherever they were operating, players who don't wish to fight Thargoids could simply avoid the region. At the moment, it makes literally no difference to me if Thargoids even exist, it's just "huh, this place is under Thargoid attack; I guess I'll just continue trading and mission running like normal".

There's a vast galaxy, full of allegedly dangerous things, yet in practice we have to actively go out of our ways to find danger rather than avoid it. There's nothing wrong with players being able to avoid danger if they want to live a simple, risk-free life, but they should also accept that it would involve sacrifices in terms of where they can operate (which would also affect their earning potential).

 

[Brrokk]

Personally, I don't much care for Thargoid combat myself. The real issue isn't about forcing players into a certain activity, but to have it at very least factor into their decisions. Even if Thargoids were extremely hostile and actively hunted down ships wherever they were operating, players who don't wish to fight Thargoids could simply avoid the region. At the moment, it makes literally no difference to me if Thargoids even exist, it's just "huh, this place is under Thargoid attack; I guess I'll just continue trading and mission running like normal".

There's a vast galaxy, full of allegedly dangerous things, yet in practice we have to actively go out of our ways to find danger rather than avoid it. There's nothing wrong with players being able to avoid danger if they want to live a simple, risk-free life, but they should also accept that it would involve sacrifices in terms of where they can operate (which would also affect their earning potential).

I've fought Thargoids but I don't hugely enjoy it, for a simple reason: it's too hard! To be successful I'm going to have to git gud with fixed weapons, learn to keep an eye on several things at once (fight stage, range, what the swarm is doing, shutdown pulse, yellow lightning, my shields...) and master FA-off. All this could well be beyond me. If this was a single-player game I would have probably turned the difficulty slider way down by now. (OK, I'm not entirely useless; I did kill a Cyclops once, but it was a rather dozy one).

But I'm not here asking for Thargoids to be nerfed! Some people like them being so tough. Let them carry on enjoying that challenge. I'll join in when I can as an interested spectator in a wing. ED is great because it offers people of different skill levels the gameplay they want.

 

[Sylow]

All the stuff with trade and factions too, I wish that were so in this game. It always felt stupid to me that you can be an Admiral-King in both opposing superpowers.
How would you model that in game anyway?

Hmm, yea. Things like that are strange. I mean, just look at Zar Nicholas II of Russia. The one who was in power during the first world war. Not only was he a member of several orders, including and Austrian-Hungarian one and several german ones, he even held a rank of honor in the Imperial German army. The very army he was fighting against. And that is just one random example of many, I only picked this one, as most people can connect some dots around it.

Could you imagine that anything like that would happen in reality? Oh... wait...

 

[Leper Messiah]

In GTA V I can kill a thousand cops, drive three blocks, hide and then just walk into a police station and they just look at me.

eh? killing that many cops will get you the max wanted status and you'll have a world of hurt thrown at you...driving 3 blocks and hiding with that wanted status does squat, I've even had them finding me in the train tunnels at that status. I think that really long tunnels would work but they're out of the city.