Powerplay Whatever happened to the Powerplay Open only Proposal (POOP) ?

[Goose4291]

Lets take that example I stated: back in the early days of 2.0 (I think) the devs floated an idea that was popular with combat players, in that they link sensor grade with gimbal efficacy. In effect only A/B grade would give you the gimbal performance of today making sensor choice more important. Result: out come the headbangers and FD back off from making sensors actually mean something in game. Shields also saw a look in, with weaker shields but a boost in armour. Again, out came the headbangers. Result: we now have monstrous shields.

In both these cases the fear of change made ED much poorer in depth, just 'because'.

Same deal with Open PP- several times its been said its for Powerplay only (the clue is in the name!). And yet, headbangers think that its for the whole game, becoming ever more hysterical even when you explain its benefits. I'll rationally debate and respect opinions of those who actually have a view coming from experience, but for the players who repeatedly wreck progress because it messes with 'their' game regardless I'll mercilessly mock them.

If you doubt what I say and think I'm trying to shut people down, look back on the posts I write.

Pretty much how it went down, although the gimbal/sensors proposal was tabled a little after the ship transport debacle, and oddly a lot of people who cited themselves as being 'immersionists' with regards to being pro ship transfer times (which totally wasn't an argument built around 'griefer fear') were arguing against gimbal changes as 'its just a game', no doubt because it meant they'd have to equip something beyond D-rated sensors to min/max their PvE AFK barges.

Odd that.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

I admit I was one of the people that voted to make ship transfer absolutely not-instant, I did that not because of fear of griefers (open only ) but it simply didn't make sense. Jump range is an important factor when you talk about ship balancement. My personal "fight" is always for balancement (another thing that this game lacks dramatically).

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Gimbals are indeed very very strong. As with seekers, especially after Engineers balance pass we got a while back. And internals didnt get buffed.

Which means not only can you have laser precision with premium gimbals, you can run fixed when they chaff. Gimballs will do most of the dmg in any fight PVP or PVE.

They essentially got buffed even more after the balance pass, they were already strong before with their tracking of ships. Hell you dont even need your opponents ship in your field of view to hit them. Gimbals allow you to be so evasive and do dmg at the same time its out right ridiculous.

The furthest the tracking should go in my opinion is where the two large curves are on each side of the UI. They shouldn't be able to track outside of that. This would make gimbals strong still, while rewarding fixed weapons for both parties.

Turrets should be the only thing outside of the two large curves with the obvious DPS loss.

The maneuverability that gimbals allow overpowers the small DPS loss in gimbals vs fixed.

But what do I know

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Well, to be honest I'd love to see only "fixed but with limited aim assistance" (something similar of what happens in CQC) weapons and more powerful turrets controlled by a Crew Loung member (and his rating decisive for the effectiveness of the turrets).

But sadly it's too late for that.

 

[Goose4291]

I admit I was one of the people that voted to make ship transfer absolutely not-instant, I did that not because of fear of griefers (open only ) but it simply didn't make sense. Jump range is an important factor when you talk about ship balancement. My personal "fight" is always for balancement (another thing that this game lacks dramatically).

Nah, I was the same when that poll was doing the rounds (as I used to strongly believe that FD were about trying to push the 'sim' agenda back into the game with associated consequences for decisions and build. Also, because I predominately fly multi-role, and I felt instant transport would sound the death knell of such ships.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Pretty much how it went down, although the gimbal/sensors proposal was tabled a little after the ship transport debacle, and oddly a lot of people who cited themselves as being 'immersionists' with regards to being pro ship transfer times (which totally wasn't an argument built around 'griefer fear') were arguing against gimbal changes as 'its just a game', no doubt because it meant they'd have to equip something beyond D-rated sensors to min/max their PvE AFK barges.

Odd that.

This is what makes me so sad with ED. If this change had happened, it would have most likely opened the door for a whole new layer of engineering and outfitting depth. It would have possibly made various sensor grades more /less prone to chaff or experimental effects, made gimbal ships more of a tradeoff between cost and weight v gimbal advantages.

Right now people only use D (D for default as I imagine it) or A grade in PvP to aid instancing (to keep players on radar further away). Part of me wonders why we have B C and E any more because they are useless and a wasted opportunity to add to the game for essentially very little bar a few property tweaks.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

This is what makes me so sad with ED. If this change had happened, it would have most likely opened the door for a whole new layer of engineering and outfitting depth. It would have possibly made various sensor grades more /less prone to chaff or experimental effects, made gimbal ships more of a tradeoff between cost and weight v gimbal advantages.

Right now people only use D (D for default as I imagine it) or A grade in PvP to aid instancing (to keep players on radar further away). Part of me wonders why we have B C and E any more because they are useless and a wasted opportunity to add to the game for essentially very little bar a few property tweaks.

I think that I wrote, at some point, a new proposal about modules, to cancel completely the "class letter" and put real in game vendors, with peculiar characteristics (like modules being lightwieght, or long range, or particularly fast etc). Then you'd engineer them for even more depth. But we're going offtopic, of course. I feel sometimes that the developers have a lot of good ideas but they basically lack of courage in bringing them to the community. The focused feedbacks were a great experiment, and many wonderful things came out of those. And the new BGS, which is now one of the few things that actually work in a multiplayer point of view, is basically an answer for all the people who were actually playing the BGS to the developers.

 

[Brrokk]

'Slippery Slopers' quite frankly are the headbangers of ED. They blocked decent changes to gimbals, shields, scanners, armour and now when a singular feature that would benefit from the changes appears, they selfishly oppose it not because they care about that feature but because they invent hypothetical demons to scare others with.

There are "slippery slopers" supporting OOPP too: the ones who don't care at all about PP but just hope the Open-only idea will spread and give them more targets.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

There are "slippery slopers" supporting OOPP too: the ones who don't care at all about PP but just hope the Open- only idea will spread and give them more targets.

We both know it's not gonna happen, that's a totally unreasonable fear. This game is never gonna become Open Only in every aspect. But it needs at least one Open Only game mechanic.

 

[Brrokk]

We both know it's not gonna happen, that's a totally unreasonable fear. This game is never gonna become Open Only in every aspect. But it needs at least one Open Only game mechanic.

I agree it's not going to happen, but I think the wish for it is a motivation we've seen in this forum.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

I agree it's not going to happen, but I think the wish for it is a motivation we've seen in this forum.

So what? Because there's people with a wet dream of shooting everybody in the future Open Only Powerplay becomes an unreasonable idea? Honestly: I do not care about that. I only care about fair and interesting game mechanics for the greatest variety of players possible. Open Only Powerplay would be a game mechanic that woudln't affect the single player not interested on it only playing in private or solo. Remember one of the main rules of these new proposals? No more Powerplay only modules: those modules would be available by Tech-Brokers. It's an everybody win situation. The only exception are 5C, cheaters and bot-abusers, that will become easier to spot, even if they use tools to hide in different instances (it will be evident for the anti-cheat team that there's something wrong).

 

[Darkfyre99]

So what? Because there's people with a wet dream of shooting everybody in the future Open Only Powerplay becomes an unreasonable idea? Honestly: I do not care about that. I only care about fair and interesting game mechanics for the greatest variety of players possible. Open Only Powerplay would be a game mechanic that woudln't affect the single player not interested on it only playing in private or solo. Remember one of the main rules of these new proposals? No more Powerplay only modules: those modules would be available by Tech-Brokers. It's an everybody win situation. The only exception are 5C, cheaters and bot-abusers, that will become easier to spot, even if they use tools to hide in different instances (it will be evident for the anti-cheat team that there's something wrong).

Everybody wins, except for those players who play Powerplay who have zero interest in PvP, but enjoy the logistics, roleplaying, or all the other aspects of it.

Personally, I don’t see PPOO improving the state of PvP in Powerplay at all, and quite frankly I think it’ll be the final nail in its coffin. Those of us who are in any way inclined to play in Open already do, and I don’t see those who join Powerplay for the PvP sticking around when the reality of how instancing “works” in this game. I’ve seen far too many MMOs that attempt... let’s call it PvE enhanced... wither on the vine to not be skeptical about thehow well PPOO does.

Still hoping that all the other changes will breathe new life into Powerplay. I’d like to have ways of earning Merits that don’t involve activities I don’t enjoy after all these years.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Everybody wins, except for those players who play Powerplay who have zero interest in PvP, but enjoy the logistics, roleplaying, or all the other aspects of it.

Personally, I don’t see PPOO improving the state of PvP in Powerplay at all, and quite frankly I think it’ll be the final nail in its coffin. Those of us who are in any way inclined to play in Open already do, and I don’t see those who join Powerplay for the PvP sticking around when the reality of how instancing “works” in this game. I’ve seen far too many MMOs that attempt... let’s call it PvE enhanced... wither on the vine to not be skeptical about thehow well PPOO does.

Still hoping that all the other changes will breathe new life into Powerplay. I’d like to have ways of earning Merits that don’t involve activities I don’t enjoy after all these years.

What kind of logistics or other aspects are we talking about? I'm really curious right now because you talk as if you're a seasoned Powerplayer. Maybe the "let's fortify everything and then let's forget about the possibility of being attacked" tactic? Or maybe the "considering that everybody's doing so, let's pledge to their Power all together to create the possibility to attack that Power and have new territories available" tactic?
You say it would be the last nail to Powerplay's coffin but still you don't bring any kind of evidence to support that, your only argumentation is that (probably) many people wouldn't like the idea to risk a rebuy.
Fair enough. There's plenty of other game mechanics. The Background Simulation is perfect for that, the Galaxy is so wide that you could literally play it in Open all the time without meeting with another group.

But Powerplay is different. Powerplay is designd for conflict. I think that people can find many suitable ways to support their gamestyle or even to roleplay whatever they want to roleplay (and you do not need to be pledged to any power to roleplay something in private or solo because... well, you're basically roleplaying with yourself).
Still this doesn't add anything to the discussion of if Open Only would benefit Powerplay and the whole game at all.

My theory is: the game lacks any kind of Open Only mechanic with PvP as an important but not decisive factor, without making PvP as killing other ships the only decisive factor for it. And that's a fact.
Does the game need this? This is the field where opinion is a factor. I think it does, you may think that it doesn't.
But it's a fact that the game lacks this kind of game approach, and there's people asking for it.
One single tiny little game mechanic that's already done for because it's hostage of few guys botting and 5Cing it to the death.
I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Lets take that example I stated: back in the early days of 2.0 (I think) the devs floated an idea that was popular with combat players, in that they link sensor grade with gimbal efficacy. In effect only A/B grade would give you the gimbal performance of today making sensor choice more important. Result: out come the headbangers and FD back off from making sensors actually mean something in game. Shields also saw a look in, with weaker shields but a boost in armour. Again, out came the headbangers. Result: we now have monstrous shields.

In both these cases the fear of change made ED much poorer in depth, just 'because'.

Same deal with Open PP- several times its been said its for Powerplay only (the clue is in the name!). And yet, headbangers think that its for the whole game, becoming ever more hysterical even when you explain its benefits. I'll rationally debate and respect opinions of those who actually have a view coming from experience, but for the players who repeatedly wreck progress because it messes with 'their' game regardless I'll mercilessly mock them.

If you doubt what I say and think I'm trying to shut people down, look back on the posts I write.

Again, you dismiss the opinions of others as "just because".

I also personally like the idea of linking gimball efficiency with sensors, but we might disagree on how effective and how much wiggle they should get with A grade for example. However, i do not dismiss the opinions of those who don't like this idea as being "just because". People at the time gave their reasons for opposing it and it should be accepted.

If you want people to accept your opinions, don't dismiss the opinions of others just because they don't agree with your own.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Again, you dismiss the opinions of others as "just because".

I also personally like the idea of linking gimball efficiency with sensors, but we might disagree on how effective and how much wiggle they should get with A grade for example. However, i do not dismiss the opinions of those who don't like this idea as being "just because". People at the time gave their reasons for opposing it and it should be accepted.

If you want people to accept your opinions, don't dismiss the opinions of others just because they don't agree with your own.

Oh come on, cut it. You do the same all the time, and you even can't accept that your premises are wrong, even when people show that to you.
At least avoid to do the morale to others. Better look into your own backyard, first.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well the sad reality is: he doesn't have solid arguments, then he can just attack people showing knowledge about matters he tries to talk about. He's basically here just to repeat the same thing ad infinitum, with the same wrong premises because he just doesn't know what he's talking about. Sadly I've seen the same technique abused in more serious matters but the model is always the same: accuse others to shut themselves down, claim their right to express their opinion etc.

If this is aimed at me, you are doing exactly what he is doing. Dismissing the opinion of others as not worth considering.

I've said it before, its not how you engage in debates. You accept the opinions of others, and then debate the merits of flaws of those arguments.

Sometimes its quite possible (actually usually) you will never convert someone to your way of thinking, no matter how solid the basis for your position, and that is fine as well. People with diverse opinions rarely will see eye to eye. So we just debate, and hopefully have fun doing so. But in order to do that, you have to accept the position of the other person as being their position.

I might tell you I disagree with your position, or think you are incorrect in your assumptions, but i will never tell you are wrong for having your opinion, and if i ever do, please tell me, and i'll retract or rephrase.

But if you want to debate, please, let's debate.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Oh come on, cut it. You do the same all the time, and you even can't accept that your premises are wrong, even when people show that to you.
At least avoid to do the morale to others. Better look into your own backyard, first.

Which premise is wrong? Please point to it, with an actual quote, and we can discuss.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I think this whole idea is now dead and buried. Personally I think open only PP should have been implemented as a whole part of the game designed to pit group and against group in a struggle for control kind of implies the need to interact with and combat/counter others, which doesn't really work with the "you can't stop me" button as an option.

But then again I think that every part of the game that impacts on other players, whether PP, changing BGS states, CGs to build something etc. should by default be played in a mode where those who do not want the impact have the opportunity to stop you.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

If this is aimed at me, you are doing exactly what he is doing. Dismissing the opinion of others as not worth considering.

I've said it before, its not how you engage in debates. You accept the opinions of others, and then debate the merits of flaws of those arguments.

Sometimes its quite possible (actually usually) you will never convert someone to your way of thinking, no matter how solid the basis for your position, and that is fine as well. People with diverse opinions rarely will see eye to eye. So we just debate, and hopefully have fun doing so. But in order to do that, you have to accept the position of the other person as being their position.

I might tell you I disagree with your position, or think you are incorrect in your assumptions, but i will never tell you are wrong for having your opinion, and if i ever do, please tell me, and i'll retract or rephrase.

But if you want to debate, please, let's debate.

Your only argumentation is that you've got the right to say anything you want, even if evidently wrong, and that people must agree on the fact that's a totally legit way to see things.

What premise you continue to have and is wrong? Again: you start from the fact that Open Play is not made irrelevant by Private/Solo grinding. You're still ignoring that and I think it's the third, even the fourth time we're talking about this. Look at the numbers: hundreds of thousands of prep merits done in Frey. And Open Play wouldn't be irrelevant.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Everybody wins, except for those players who play Powerplay who have zero interest in PvP, but enjoy the logistics, roleplaying, or all the other aspects of it.

Personally, I don’t see PPOO improving the state of PvP in Powerplay at all, and quite frankly I think it’ll be the final nail in its coffin. Those of us who are in any way inclined to play in Open already do, and I don’t see those who join Powerplay for the PvP sticking around when the reality of how instancing “works” in this game. I’ve seen far too many MMOs that attempt... let’s call it PvE enhanced... wither on the vine to not be skeptical about thehow well PPOO does.

Still hoping that all the other changes will breathe new life into Powerplay. I’d like to have ways of earning Merits that don’t involve activities I don’t enjoy after all these years.

But surely Open would enhance the 'logistics, roleplaying, or all the other aspects of [PP]? Logistics it would liven things up as nothing would be certain, making some routes and areas very tricky- dare I say (with the over UM idea) making some systems almost real time? Roleplaying I could see going either way, but that I would say is down to who you meet (IMO at least). As to other aspects, I can only guess- open would certainly shift any meta thats been established.

Like you I do hope FD split the Open Powerplay aspect from the other changes. I think at least Open PP should be tested in a beta to see how practical it is.