Powerplay Whatever happened to the Powerplay Open only Proposal (POOP) ?

[Bard Voronwe]

Please stop this, its getting tiresome. You are being difficult for the sake of it- you know its bad but you seem desperate to make some sort of point.

I'll answer you with this: does FD know itself what is cheating within Powerplay? They don't even know how Powerplay works and straight out lied about features, releasing something half complete and badly thought out. So to hold FD to some gold standard about this is silly- the players themselves reached a consensus 5C is cheating. Go read the Reddits and Discrds for your answer you already know.

If everyone used 5C Powerplay would die, instantly.

And maybe we should really do that at this point. :/

 

[Jockey79]

the players themselves reached a consensus 5C is cheating.

The players can say what they want, but 5C isn't cheating until the people who make the rules say it is.
And as they have only mitigated some of its effects, when they could have outright dealt with it should have been a clear message.
5C is part of the system, attacking from within is just as much part of the system as blowing up ships.

PP isn't the O.K. Corral, it's not just about a hail of bullets until one side falls.
That's why it is available in all modes because there is more to it than mindless pew pew.
If you want a gunfight, go arrange a gunfight.

 

[Jockey79]

And maybe we should really do that at this point. :/

Considering we keep getting told everyone is doing 5C, so PP should be open only to stop it, it's a massive contradiction to suddenly state PP will die if everyone does 5C.

They need to get their story straight, either everyone is or everyone isn't doing 5C currently.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

The players can say what they want, but 5C isn't cheating until the people who make the rules say it is.
And as they have only mitigated some of its effects, when they could have outright dealt with it should have been a clear message.
5C is part of the system, attacking from within is just as much part of the system as blowing up ships.

PP isn't the O.K. Corral, it's not just about a hail of bullets until one side falls.
That's why it is available in all modes because there is more to it than mindless pew pew.
If you want a gunfight, go arrange a gunfight.

Well, I don't think people actually doing Powerplay agree on that.
Following your train of thoughts, even botting should be a viable option, considering that FDev does nothing effective against that phenomenon. They claim they want to do something against that, still they are not effective at all (as the regular numbers dealt in powerplay prove).
But as Rubbernuke said before, that would kill the game mechanic at all, mathematically. Basically it would become impossible to defend by an attack, even fortifying everything (because overheads).
Be careful, we're talking about advanced knowledge of the game mechanic itself, I don't think you are familiar with Powerplay formulas.

EDIT

I'd say that 5C is more a consequence of bad design than anything else, it's never been intended to work this way. Trust me, I know that for sure: some of us had a really hard time trying to explain how 5C works and why it is so effective to a certain developer.

 

[Jockey79]

Well, I don't think people actually doing Powerplay agree on that.
Following your train of thoughts, even botting should be a viable option, considering that FDev does nothing effective against that phenomenon. They claim they want to do something against that, still they are not effective at all (as the regular numbers dealt in powerplay prove).
But as Rubbernuke said before, that would kill the game mechanic at all, mathematically. Basically it would become impossible to defend by an attack, even fortifying everything (because overheads).
Be careful, we're talking about advanced knowledge of the game mechanic itself, I don't think you are familiar with Powerplay formulas.

Wil made it clear in the thread you linked regarding the update that Frontier does investigate and take action when it comes to botting - so you've just called him a lair there.
You may want to revisit the announcement thread and go through his posts. It's bad form to call Frontier staff liars.

I'd also be careful trying to make out your more knowledgeable. I was one of the voices who told Frontier not to release Power Play when they did because of the major flaws in it, as are many others here who are against the idea of Open Only. The system has many other problems that need dealing with long before you want to look at the modes its available in. Direct PvP isn't rewarded and 5C is overly rewarded for a start.

Trying to act superior to others isn't going to help your argument. It's just going to make people hostile towards you.

 

[Roybe]

If its so virtuous, why is it every Powerplay update has explicitly revolved around mitigating it? Its easily exploitable and wrecks the feature.

5C....was always meant to be a way to play...since the very first week...when the Mercs of Mikuun did it..in Open and very publicly. 5c is not going to go away....hopefully the bots will.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Wil made it clear in the thread you linked regarding the update that Frontier does investigate and take action when it comes to botting - so you've just called him a lair there.
You may want to revisit the announcement thread and go through his posts. It's bad form to call Frontier staff liars.

I'd also be careful trying to make out your more knowledgeable. I was one of the voices who told Frontier not to release Power Play when they did because of the major flaws in it, as are many others here who are against the idea of Open Only. The system has many other problems that need dealing with long before you want to look at the modes its available in. Direct PvP isn't rewarded and 5C is overly rewarded for a start.

Trying to act superior to others isn't going to help your argument. It's just going to make people hostile towards you.

But are you familiar with Powerplay formulas or not? Because it's crucial to truly understand why 5C is so destructive for the game mechanic, as you're clearly underestimating, even trying to consider that a legit mechanic.
PS I didn't call Will a liar, I only said that the evidence doesn't match with the declaration that the anti-cheat team in Frontier is doing enough to fight the botting-problem. Considering the milions of merits done 24/7 and many other evidence showed by other groups like the Alliance Office of Statistics, it's an undeniable fact that they're being absolutely uneffective.

EDIT
Oh, I'm purposelly ignoring the all "hostile" thing: we're talking about facts, or your judgement depend on the people exposing opinions and not opinions themselves?

EDIT-2
The reason why PvP-activities can't be rewarded is because of exploits: considering how easy is to make money in the game right now people would literally suicide to help their true Power. It's a good idea in theory, very exploitable in a practical way.

 

[Goose4291]

5C....was always meant to be a way to play...since the very first week...when the Mercs of Mikuun did it..in Open and very publicly. 5c is not going to go away....hopefully the bots will.

There's nothing stopping me playing as a goaltender in NHL 19, and deliberately letting the oppositions goals in, because I'm actually their seventh man, want them to win and theres no mechanics to stop me doing it.

Clearly working as intended.

 

[jasonbarron]

I never said it was virtuous, i said it was fair, since every player can use the same tactic.

FD might want to mitigate it, but you declared it to be cheating. Please show where FD have declared it to be cheating.

Since when do we need an official declaration from Fdev that something possible within the game isn't necessarily within the spirit of the game? Did we need a declaration to let us know that refreshing the mission board via mode switch was not within the spirit of the game? There's a decent length list of things that are possible but still very uncool, even if Fdev hasn't officially brought the hammer down. They know it, we know it....and so do you, despite the pedantry.

 

[Goose4291]

Since when do we need an official declaration from Fdev that something possible within the game isn't necessarily within the spirit of the game? Did we need a declaration to let us know that refreshing the mission board via mode switch was not within the spirit of the game? There's a decent length list of things that are possible but still very uncool, even if Fdev hasn't officially brought the hammer down. They know it, we know it....and so do you, despite the pedantry.

Five will get you ten that they don't look at Station Ramming with the same regard.

 

[Jockey79]

But are you familiar with Powerplay formulas or not? Because it's crucial to truly understand why 5C is so destructive for the game mechanic, as you're clearly underestimating, even trying to consider that a legit mechanic.
PS I didn't call Will a liar, I only said that the evidence doesn't match with the declaration that the anti-cheat team in Frontier is doing enough to fight the botting-problem. Considering the milions of merits done 24/7 and many other evidence showed by other groups like the Alliance Office of Statistics, it's an undeniable fact that they're being absolutely uneffective.

EDIT
Oh, I'm purposelly ignoring the all "hostile" thing: we're talking about facts, or your judgement depend on the people exposing opinions and not opinions themselves?

As Roybe has pointed out, and Frontier has. 5C is supposed to be a part of the game.
Which was one of the things I spoke out against at the start. So yes I know exactly how "destructive" it can be, which is why I didn't want it.
Frontier said they did. Their game, their rules. So it's not "cheating" as has been asserted by RN, it's actually a feature.

You have no "facts" or "evidence" right now, so pretending you do is just being openly dishonest.
You have subjective, inaccurate information. Only Frontier has all the information and they have refused countless times to share it.
Except for some comments along the way about the majority of players playing in Open (which counters the whole "hiding in Solo" rubbish) and that most people do not PvP.

Any data we as players collect is a small snapshot of part of the game. It's nowhere near the whole story and not worth anything when it comes to game balance.
Beating your chest, giving it the "big I am" is not helpful. As all you have is your subjective option.
Frontier are dealing with bots and actual real cheating on a case by case basis, but they will also get swamped with false reports from sore losers.

All your player collected data does not account for the vast quantity of false reports, because you assume that if someone didn't wave to you or take evasive actions they are a bot - you don't account for the fact they could be anti-social, they could be AFK, they couldn't care less if you blow them up. So the player collected data is overly flawed.

 

[Jockey79]

Five will get you ten that they don't look at Station Ramming with the same regard.

Wasn't this fixed with the introduction of speed limits?

( /s <--- in case it's not clear )

 

[Bard Voronwe]

As Roybe has pointed out, and Frontier has. 5C is supposed to be a part of the game.
Which was one of the things I spoke out against at the start. So yes I know exactly how "destructive" it can be, which is why I didn't want it.
Frontier said they did. Their game, their rules. So it's not "cheating" as has been asserted by RN, it's actually a feature.

You have no "facts" or "evidence" right now, so pretending you do is just being openly dishonest.
You have subjective, inaccurate information. Only Frontier has all the information and they have refused countless times to share it.
Except for some comments along the way about the majority of players playing in Open (which counters the whole "hiding in Solo" rubbish) and that most people do not PvP.

Any data we as players collect is a small snapshot of part of the game. It's nowhere near the whole story and not worth anything when it comes to game balance.
Beating your chest, giving it the "big I am" is not helpful. As all you have is your subjective option.
Frontier are dealing with bots and actual real cheating on a case by case basis, but they will also get swamped with false reports from sore losers.

All your player collected data does not account for the vast quantity of false reports, because you assume that if someone didn't wave to you or take evasive actions they are a bot - you don't account for the fact they could be anti-social, they could be AFK, they couldn't care less if you blow them up. So the player collected data is overly flawed.

Can you please quote me when or where Frontier did legitimate 5C in any way in the past? I'm sincerly asking, 'coz I've been told differently until now.

EDIT

So you think that a pattern of preparation going on 24/7 with clockwise regularity isn't enough to suspect any artificial activity?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Five will get you ten that they don't look at Station Ramming with the same regard.

Excatly the same regard actually. Its not decent play, but its fair, you can station ram someone right back. Station ramming is not cheating, its not against the rules.

Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Since when do we need an official declaration from Fdev that something possible within the game isn't necessarily within the spirit of the game? Did we need a declaration to let us know that refreshing the mission board via mode switch was not within the spirit of the game? There's a decent length list of things that are possible but still very uncool, even if Fdev hasn't officially brought the hammer down. They know it, we know it....and so do you, despite the pedantry.

Because unless it is against the rules, its not against the rules. In grey areas, where something doesn't clearly go against the rules, then it requires a statement from FD. If you can show which rule 5Cing breaks, then we can discuss.

Is it uncool? Well, yeah, kind of, but all powers could play the 5C game.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Because unless it is against the rules, its not against the rules. In grey areas, where something doesn't clearly go against the rules, then it requires a statement from FD. If you can show which rule 5Cing breaks, then we can discuss.

Is it uncool? Well, yeah, kind of, but all powers could play the 5C game.

So your solution to the problem right now would be for us to 5C each other to the death?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Please stop this, its getting tiresome. You are being difficult for the sake of it- you know its bad but you seem desperate to make some sort of point.

I'll answer you with this: does FD know itself what is cheating within Powerplay? They don't even know how Powerplay works and straight out lied about features, releasing something half complete and badly thought out. So to hold FD to some gold standard about this is silly- the players themselves reached a consensus 5C is cheating. Go read the Reddits and Discrds for your answer you already know.

If everyone used 5C Powerplay would die, instantly.

No, i'm debating. If you don't want to debate any more, all you have to do is not reply. Simple.

Now you are asking if FD know whether 5C should be classed as cheating? LOL, ok man, whatever.

As for your final sentence, maybe everyone should 5C then, bring PP to its knees, and see if that gets them to do something.

After all, you won't know until you try.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

So your solution to the problem right now would be for us to 5C each other to the death?

Why not? Might be interesting to see if it provokes FD to actually do something about it.

I highly recommend all powers go on a massive 5C campaign. See what happens.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Not... reply? Trying to shut up people, now?
Jokes aside: we've got an idiom in here that would be perfect to describe what you're proposing, roughly translated it's something like "it would be like cutting your balls off to displease your cheating wife", which means that it would be to harm yourself to hurt somebody who in fact has no interest in what you're doing.

We did a lot of steps in our discussion. We started by talking about game mechanics outside of Powerplay itself (even if it's never been the purpose of this thread by the way), how to measure the efforts of different teams engaged in the same type of game mechanics and everytime people in here tried to bring back the whole thing inside the original purpose you tried to divert again in the Open/Pvt/Solo Crusade.

But now you're trying to say that a game mechanic which was admittedly an undesired side effect of the design of Powerplay should be considered legit. Really, I can't understand if you're trolling or if you're for real. And usually it's not a good sign.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

But you also can say what want but 5c is the ugly fat furuncle in any sane game design concept and not just evil players abusing a week aspect of the game. Good game design would never allow that in the first place.

And that's the reason why most proposals are about the maths and the rules in Powerplay.

As always been said, Open Only or a Dedicated Exclusive Game Mode would be an "extra" to make it a different game mechanic from the rest of the game.