Powerplay Whatever happened to the Powerplay Open only Proposal (POOP) ?

As I keep trying to explain (poorly, it seems) is that, according to Frontier, currently a significant majority of players play in Open. I sincerely doubt that this statistic changes appreciably among the Powerplay community. In fact, if Powerplay is truly more attractive to PvPers than it is to PvEers, as I've been told repeatedly, then this statistic should skew more in favor of Open vs the general community. Either way, it means that, with the exception of the hyper-competitive "win at all costs" type of player, the majority of players across all powers should be doing their activities Open, including hauling. If this isn't the case, then that means that Powerplay is more attractive to PvEers than it is to PvPers, in which case Powerplay going Open Only will be even a larger disaster than I suspect.

While the hyper-competitive types may have an outsize influence on all aspects of the game (including fortification), the current stalemate isn't caused by the modes. It's caused by the automatic fortification triggers. It's essentially an automatic win for the fortifier. This allows Powers to minimize the effort needed to maintain their their borders. This in turn means that once a system is fortified, any undermining beyond the trigger is likewise wasted, so the focus is on any systems that are the targets of an expansion.

This is great for the PvP players, because it puts a lot of players into a single system (or perhaps two), making it easy to find other players to fight. This is great for the "Centrists" due to the "needle in a haystack" effect. "Centrists" are much more willing to fly in Open, because they're not getting frustrated by frequent attacks, whether those attacks are successful or not. This is great for the PvE players, because they don't have to fly in Open at all. This isn't so great for the player-killers, though, because their "watering hole" is being dominated by PvPers, the PvEers are not playing in Open at all, and the "Centrists" are spread out among dozens of systems, and aren't as easy to kill as a PvEer. Which is why they don't bother with it at all, either directly via pledging to a Power, or most likely, as was seen in the first few weeks of Powerplay, unpledged murderers hanging out in capitals and control systems.

With the proposed changes to Powerplay, assuming mode agnosticism remains in place, the efforts of hyper-competitive players and non-Open players will mostly cancel each other out... although the rules still favor fortification efforts. Since fortification is no longer guaranteed, the Powers will need to contract, resulting in fewer systems overall. Things still haven't changed much for the PvPers, but with fewer systems overall, a wider selection of activities become possible... in theory, at least. Most likely, the "exciting" systems will remain the handful of expansions, which at least will be more frequent due to a much more dynamic Powerplay map.

Things still haven't changed for PvE players, because they still don't have to play in Open. The status quo will change for the "Centrists," since as the number of systems overall decreases, the number of attacks they experience increases. For some, this can result in a more exciting game. For others, it remains tolerable. And for some, the frequency of attacks becomes intolerable, and they switch to other modes.

The biggest change will be for player-killers, at least at first. At first, "Centrists" will become easier to find, as the Powers become more compact, and while they aren't as easy to kill as PvEers, at least they're easier to find now. But then the inevitable feedback loop happens, and as the least PvP inclined "Centrists" leave Open, player-killers once again find it hard to find someone to attack, and those that remain in Open become even harder to kill. Unable to get their "fix," the player-killers leave again.

Dropping the Open Only grenade, on the other hand, will have profound effects. The most immediate effects will be the PvE players simply quitting Powerplay altogether. This will result in a much greater contraction across all Powers than if the game had remained mode-agnostic. The hyper-competitive players, OTOH, will either quit, or start cheating, depending on how far they're willing to go to "win." The amount of combat logging will most certainly increase. "Centrists" will experience much greater attack frequencies due to the much smaller number of systems, and will start quitting Powerplay altogether, resulting in even greater shrinkage of the playing field, a feedback loop that will eventually result in the last of the "Centrists" quitting, and this is before we throw the player-killers into the mix, with the similar results to above.

At the end, the Powerplay map will consist mostly of the capitals, and perhaps a handful of other control systems, and only the PvPers will remain. Rather than being concentrated in a few systems, they'll be spread out all over the map, trying to keep things running. They might occasionally make raids, but mostly they will sit around and remissness about the glory days of old, when "vast fleets" of ships struggled against each other in epic combat... at least until the "next big thing" comes along.

Hopefully, the last one to leave will remember to turn off the stove and the lights.

I've seen this scenario play out far too many times to believe that Powerplay will be any different, especially when you factor in this game's networking architecture, and Frontier's lack of experience in multi-player games in general, and MMOs specifically. I'm still rather amazed that they managed to stumble onto a winning formula that has resulted in Open being played by a significant majority of players, though back before the Alpha, I was convinced this was due to learning from the mistakes of past games, rather than just blind luck.

I could be wrong. If Frontier decides to pull the Open Only grenade, I hope I am wrong, because there's no recovering from the effects if I'm right. Players who quit very rarely come back, and I'm far too fond of the potential of Powerplay (even if the execution was bad) to see it die off that way.


Until Powerplay goes Open only, it will be hard to know who it will attract and repel. The one thing that is clear to me though is Powerplay has to change and it has to be radical to give it purpose. This new re-purposing might indeed annoy some, but its a risk worth taking since the potential experience on offer would be epic.

I don't really get where you think powers will contract with mode agnostic Powerplay. Unless you blanket mega UM loads of systems you are still going to have an isolated faceless race between harvesting merits and hauling. Since you can't snipe this way any more, its just going to be a slog which will put more players off. Imagine that each cycle- it put you off even before this, imagine an unending grind that has no end and no enemy to face other than an ever rising indicator. The short is that its not adding anything to the game we don't already have.

While the fortification thresholds don't help, modes facilitate easy and dependable fortifying. As I outlined, if you have the tug of war fort idea in open it ratchets up the tension as more importance is put on each run. Without open, it simply makes for additional grind, amplifying the solo advantage and reducing the potency of that idea- its the hamster wheel gameplay that people hate.

Along with consolidation, fortification is far too strong. Most powers by now have decent BGS teams and have optimized systems. As it stands without open attenuating hauling, it will make no difference and make things worse. It also negates the skill element of actually intercepting and killing haulers who are most likely going to be in Cutters.

Plus, you forget even with rampant attacks and undermining, at a certain size Powers will have enough CC to do what they want. Sure, Powers will be smaller in Open only, but each expansion would mean more in gameplay and planning. It would also free space that FD have not added for the feature, allowing Powerplay to breathe and have more options for expansion as time goes on.
 
As I keep trying to explain (poorly, it seems) is that, according to Frontier, currently a significant majority of players play in Open. I sincerely doubt that this statistic changes appreciably among the Powerplay community. In fact, if Powerplay is truly more attractive to PvPers than it is to PvEers, as I've been told repeatedly, then this statistic should skew more in favor of Open vs the general community.

On reddit the power leaders often proclaim strongly that all their people are in open, its the other side that is doing 5C, playing in PG/solo, running bots.

Its rather funny, but its also one thing that often turns me off competitive games (or in this case, mini games). Yeah, they can be lots of fun, but they can also be really nasty, with accusations and mudslinging and a hell of a lot of salt.

Its why i'm often happy with the way ED's multiplayer is designed.

Competitive environments can often get nasty, especially when shielded by the anonymity of the internet and nobody can punch you in the face for being a jerk.
 
Oh wow, the new updates will make so much easier for botters to do their thing. I'm negatively astonished.

Oh man, i nearly choked reading that. Indeed, its a gift for the botters.

However, for newbies, i like the new closed off systems, that's a nice touch.

Hmm... advanced docking computer you say, don't mind if i do!
 
On reddit the power leaders often proclaim strongly that all their people are in open, its the other side that is doing 5C, playing in PG/solo, running bots.

Its rather funny, but its also one thing that often turns me off competitive games (or in this case, mini games). Yeah, they can be lots of fun, but they can also be really nasty, with accusations and mudslinging and a hell of a lot of salt.

Its why i'm often happy with the way ED's multiplayer is designed.

Competitive environments can often get nasty, especially when shielded by the anonymity of the internet and nobody can punch you in the face for being a jerk.

If you go back in time, you'll see that in Powerplays early life Powers got on quite well and dealt with failure / winning very well. Its only recently where 5C and FDs lack of love has made things bitter.
 
If you go back in time, you'll see that in Powerplays early life Powers got on quite well and dealt with failure / winning very well. Its only recently where 5C and FDs lack of love has made things bitter.

The powerplayers should direct their ire at FD then, not at one another. But they do, and its not just ED, its in just about every single PvP game i've ever seen where there is any sort of long term competition. Its basically an extension of the salt you get in arena games where people come out with telling you what they did to your mother, but builds over a longer time.

EvE is a good example of this as well.
 
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/april-update-coming-23-april-2019.508239/page-4#post-7724711

Honestly, I've been very relaxed about this matter. I thought about those "quality of life" features as something very different, like some kind of "small single player campaign" thing, but honestly this is really bad for any cooperative mechanic, if it's not gonna be effectively countered by a serious anti-bot scouting action.

It probably makes discovering bots harder as well, as how can you tell the difference between a bot and someone just AFK flying. Well, of course, you can blow them up regardless. :p

Of course, i'm sure the salt will really start to flow once people do start AFK flying, not just in open. I can't wait for the first threads where someone complains because an NPC pirate killed them when they were AFK flying. :D
 
The powerplayers should direct their ire at FD then, not at one another. But they do, and its not just ED, its in just about every single PvP game i've ever seen where there is any sort of long term competition. Its basically an extension of the salt you get in arena games where people come out with telling you what they did to your mother, but builds over a longer time.

EvE is a good example of this as well.

Go and have a look for yourself. When fights were fair and people lost you had grudging respect and well done after a battle. But this is what happens when Powerplay has so many exploitable holes in it. You ask FD for help, get none, and some other players take advantage ruining it. These days its sad to see, but it was inevitable.
 
Go and have a look for yourself. When fights were fair and people lost you had grudging respect and well done after a battle. But this is what happens when Powerplay has so many exploitable holes in it. You ask FD for help, get none, and some other players take advantage ruining it. These days its sad to see, but it was inevitable.

I believe this is down to individuals in regards to battles. Some people get salty, some people say GG. I was talking about the larger scale, the politics.

Happens with the BGS as well, not just PP.
 
I believe this is down to individuals in regards to battles. Some people get salty, some people say GG. I was talking about the larger scale, the politics.

Happens with the BGS as well, not just PP.

I'm not kidding- the further back you go, the friendlier it gets. We used to send each other Christmas cards and say GG after each fight. It was with the establishment of ZYADA that made people angry though- and that Powers were sacrificed for the benefit of other powers when in the beginning it was supposed to be about singular powers becoming number 1 and avoiding no 10.
 
I'm not kidding- the further back you go, the friendlier it gets. We used to send each other Christmas cards and say GG after each fight. It was with the establishment of ZYADA that made people angry though- and that Powers were sacrificed for the benefit of other powers when in the beginning it was supposed to be about singular powers becoming number 1 and avoiding no 10.

I'm sure it was, i was briefly involved at the very start. Like I said, things tend to get more entrenched as time goes on.
 
I'm sure it was, i was briefly involved at the very start. Like I said, things tend to get more entrenched as time goes on.

They do, but when things were seen as being fair people behaved better. A lot of people simply want a fair fight, or at least have the tools to fight one.
 
They do, but when things were seen as being fair people behaved better. A lot of people simply want a fair fight, or at least have the tools to fight one.

And fair fights can be had. Excepting bots (which are against the rules) Powerplay is perfectly fair. Everyone has equal abilities and options available. Some people choose to not avail themselves of those optinons, but that's their choice. If one side is 5Cing, you can 5C right back. If one side is all playing in PG/solo, you can play in PG/solo right back.
 
And fair fights can be had. Excepting bots (which are against the rules) Powerplay is perfectly fair. Everyone has equal abilities and options available. Some people choose to not avail themselves of those optinons, but that's their choice. If one side is 5Cing, you can 5C right back. If one side is all playing in PG/solo, you can play in PG/solo right back.

First up, 5C is not an option because its flat out cheating. The vast majority have standards and keep to them.

Second, you could reciprocate and AFK heal beam in teams. But what does that do to the game? Just if you stoop to 5C tactics you devolve the game into mush where skill is secondary to time, multiboxing and finding exploits to enhance your efficiency.

Powerplay can go one of two ways: multi mode, where everything is time x volume with no skill or actually involve the spaceships in ED and the skills used to fly them. If you cut that out, you might as well be pushing a shopping cart around Tesco.
 
And fair fights can be had. Excepting bots (which are against the rules) Powerplay is perfectly fair. Everyone has equal abilities and options available. Some people choose to not avail themselves of those optinons, but that's their choice. If one side is 5Cing, you can 5C right back. If one side is all playing in PG/solo, you can play in PG/solo right back.
Well at least you admit that powerplay should be played PG/Solo against people who are playing pg/solo. :p
 
Well at least you admit that powerplay should be played PG/Solo against people who are playing pg/solo. :p

I admit that people are free to choose the mode they play in and accept the pros and cons of that mode.

But like we discussed, an open only powerplay and a separate PG/solo powerplay could be an option. Nobody loses anything that way.
 
First up, 5C is not an option because its flat out cheating.

Sorry, have FD said it is cheating? Its built into the mechanics that its possible, so without a direct statement from FD on the topic, then its not cheating. If FD have said its cheating, then 5Cers should be dealt with like any cheats and FD should patch the gameplay so that 5Cing isn't possible.

Open only would still allow 5Cing, so its not a solution to that. We have discussed how effective they could be at 5Cing in an open only environment, so we don't need to go down that route again, but i think you have to agree, it would still be possible, if perhaps less effective. But there again, the theory is, that in open only, everyone would be less effective anyway, so net gain, zero?
 
Sorry, have FD said it is cheating? Its built into the mechanics that its possible, so without a direct statement from FD on the topic, then its not cheating. If FD have said its cheating, then 5Cers should be dealt with like any cheats and FD should patch the gameplay so that 5Cing isn't possible.

Open only would still allow 5Cing, so its not a solution to that. We have discussed how effective they could be at 5Cing in an open only environment, so we don't need to go down that route again, but i think you have to agree, it would still be possible, if perhaps less effective. But there again, the theory is, that in open only, everyone would be less effective anyway, so net gain, zero?

If its so virtuous, why is it every Powerplay update has explicitly revolved around mitigating it? Its easily exploitable and wrecks the feature.
 
If its so virtuous, why is it every Powerplay update has explicitly revolved around mitigating it? Its easily exploitable and wrecks the feature.

I never said it was virtuous, i said it was fair, since every player can use the same tactic.

FD might want to mitigate it, but you declared it to be cheating. Please show where FD have declared it to be cheating.
 
I never said it was virtuous, i said it was fair, since every player can use the same tactic.

FD might want to mitigate it, but you declared it to be cheating. Please show where FD have declared it to be cheating.

Please stop this, its getting tiresome. You are being difficult for the sake of it- you know its bad but you seem desperate to make some sort of point.

I'll answer you with this: does FD know itself what is cheating within Powerplay? They don't even know how Powerplay works and straight out lied about features, releasing something half complete and badly thought out. So to hold FD to some gold standard about this is silly- the players themselves reached a consensus 5C is cheating. Go read the Reddits and Discrds for your answer you already know.

If everyone used 5C Powerplay would die, instantly.
 
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